Have the rules for ring mains changed over the years?

[mainline]

That is mostly rubbish I'm afraid.

That applies to EVERY DAMN CIRCUIT.


Again that is simple incompetence and shows a complete lack of any form of proper testing.

Exactly the same for a radial. In fact on the CPC front worse.

Only because you are testing more than R1+R2 for a radial.

Is that you Farage?

Again, this is people who are not competent to do the job. If you do not know and understand UK wiring regs and practice you have absolutely no job doing it. Same for UK tradespeople working in USA not knowing the NEC, or in EU, etc.

Of course not because they don't use them. Why, because they do not have fused plugs. That is fundamental to the use of 32A supply for end appliances in the UK. It is why we can have a socket off a 40-50A cooker supply, etc.

That is written as if VD will be solved by the use of RCDs, either incompetence on the behalf of the writer, or weasel words at best. just compare cable length limits of RFC with radial of same cable.

How often do you need to control a group of sockets?

Any valid points to comment on

 

[timhoward]

Any valid points to comment on

In general by the time you’ve run a 3rd radial
into a kitchen the “it uses more cable” argument gets a bit weaker.
The “other faults” section of that post seems to contain a list where most of the issues could occur on radial circuits too, and then ends with a “can’t happen with radials”.

Let’s face it, nothing is foolproof for a sufficiently talented fool. Most installers are either competent to install rings and radials or shouldn’t be installing either.

I couldn’t do a CU change last week because smoke alarm wiring managed to interconnect no less than 5 circuits in a most creative way and unraveling it wasted an entire day of my time. Things like live from light switch, N from nearest socket.
In houses like that I appreciate ring circuits all the more as I can prove what the hapless former occupant didn’t get around to wrecking.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Sorry, some of that stuff in post 53 is nonsense or applies just as much to radials as to rings. I can't be bothered to unpick it for critique.

 

[pc1966]

Any valid points to comment on

Comments were already made. I started another thread on design and practice.

 

[narkedatninety]

Yes I still call it a ring main, is that what is now called a ring final?

You'll find a ring final circuit in a house. You'll find a ring main circuit at e.g a substation on a housing estate.

 

[Mike Johnson]

EU standards are: no more than twelve sockets (outlets) on a 20amp 2.5mm cable, and no more than eight sockets (outlets) on a 16map 1.5mm circuit, the standards have recently been updated to include a double socket is regarded as two outlets, and yes most EU CU's are much bigger especially as most white goods are to be wired separately.

 

[rewireIT]

I did the 16th and it was a Ring Final back then but nearly everyone called it a Ring Main , heck most people still call it a Ring Main

It really is about time the RFC / Ring Main was ditched as they simply aren't needed in this day and age

I've thrown one in today for a run of 3 sockets in a school that are going to have a TV plugged in and occasional hoover.

 

[mainline]

EU standards are: no more than twelve sockets (outlets) on a 20amp 2.5mm cable, and no more than eight sockets (outlets) on a 16map 1.5mm circuit, the standards have recently been updated to include a double socket is regarded as two outlets, and yes most EU CU's are much bigger especially as most white goods are to be wired separately.

I doubt the op would find that statement very useful.

 

[mainline]

I never understood people that say 'Near Miss'
Like when planes get to close and they report it as a 'Near Miss'

If I was looking up and saw 2 planes that was extremely close together. I would tell everybody afterwards that the 2 planes nearly hit each other, not that they nearly missed each other.

Bit off topic, but as long as you know what it means, doesn't really matter about anything else!

But you wouldn’t say when trying to shoot someone that that was a near hit.

 

[Mike Johnson]

I doubt the op would find that statement very useful.

The discussion went to the number of sockets on a radial so thought it would add to the knowledge of those that don't know the standards in the EU.

 

[mainline]

We seem to have a knack in this country of having limited space for consumer units, and the luxury of 3 RCBOs for a kitchen may not be a given.
Of late, for living rooms and bedrooms I’ve been doing radials, and kitchens usually an rfc.
I don’t mind testing rings - there is something nice about confirming the connections are all good on the points that will regularly see the most current draw.

Bear in mind that the use of rcbos save at least 4 ways in a split load board.

 

[pc1966]

The discussion went to the number of sockets on a radial so thought it would add to the knowledge of those that don't know the standards in the EU.

I guess it helps with the greater debate around UK plugs & sockets: that the fused nature allows higher feed circuits (20A or 32A common, of course maybe 45A cooker) and in turn a much higher diversity of load sharing, compared to "rest of world" practice.

 

[rewireIT]

I guess it helps with the greater debate around UK plugs & sockets: that the fused nature allows higher feed circuits (20A or 32A common, of course maybe 45A cooker) and in turn a much higher diversity of load sharing, compared to "rest of world" practice.

I just think the rest of the world proves there's no need for them.

What are people plugging in in reality? Even in a kitchen how often are you gonna have a blender a toaster a kettle a water distiller or whatever all running simultaneously? And for how long? 20a 2.5mm radials do the job perfectly well for the rest of the house.

Even having a 20a radial in a living room, 5 sockets, TV, maybe DVD player (who even still has those?) couple of laptops, a phone, and maybe a lamp plugged in, what's the draw?

Unless electric heating's being plugged into multiple sockets on the same radial there's zero need for rings. Again, Europe/RoW proves it.

 

[pc1966]

I just think the rest of the world proves there's no need for them.

You might want to read over this before wading in:

Ring Final Circuit (RFC) versus Radial. Yes, again.

This is a topic that comes up a lot and seems to attract near-religious levels of fever in how folks argue over the choice of circuit for UK sockets. However, often the arguments are ill-informed or they veer off in to pointless corners, or sometimes get personal. This is my attempt to put a lot...

www.electriciansforums.net

 

[rewireIT]

I don't know why my opinion offends you but ive read all the arguments for ring finals and Europe proves them straw clutchy at best.

I hold the same opinion as John Ward, I'm sure he's credentialed enough to hold the opinion that rings are stupid and pointless in most situations.

You might want to read over this before wading in:

Ring Final Circuit (RFC) versus Radial. Yes, again.

This is a topic that comes up a lot and seems to attract near-religious levels of fever in how folks argue over the choice of circuit for UK sockets. However, often the arguments are ill-informed or they veer off in to pointless corners, or sometimes get personal. This is my attempt to put a lot...

www.electriciansforums.net

 

[pc1966]

I don't know why my opinion offends you but ive read all the arguments for ring finals and Europe proves them straw clutchy at best.

If I was to say "Driving on the left is stupid and pointless, Europe proves that" would you consider it a sound argument?

 

[davesparks]

I just think the rest of the world proves there's no need for them.

I agree there is no 'need' for them, in as far as agreeing that it is perfectly possible to have a functioning electrical installation without ring final circuits.

I don't agree with the idea that they should be banned, removed from the regulations or any such thing.

The ring final is a useful circuit which a skilled electrician or designer can use in an installation in combination with other circuits to achieve the best outcome.

If you personally don't want to install ring circuits for whatever reason then that's fine, but please let the rest of us get on with installing the types of circuit we deem best suited to a particular installation.

 

[rewireIT]

If I was to say "Driving on the left is stupid and pointless, Europe proves that" would you consider it a sound argument?

No because that is a stupid argument.

Europe not having rings despite their rules being made up by dozens of countries of expert bodies proves we don't need rings. End of story.

 

[littlespark]

Anyone else notice the OP hasn’t been back since #4?

There are so many ring v radial discussions on the forum…. Maybe they can be amalgamated?

My own thoughts… which were stated on one of the other threads, is that we, as professionals, chose the best solution for the design… whether that be ring or radial. We just have an extra choice.

The Uk was an isolated island when electricity in homes became commonplace. We went for rings as it was a copper saving measure at the time, and the current ways have evolved from that.

The rest of Europe is so close together that commonalities between neighbouring countries naturally occurred… then one day a lot of them decided to standardise amongst themselves….. and either they didn’t include the UK in discussions, or we refused.

It’s not “wrong” or “right”…. It’s just different.

A final word….. can we keep the discussions civil?
Just make like a refrigerator and chill….

 

[timhoward]

Bear in mind that the use of rcbos save at least 4 ways in a split load board.

Sure, what I actually had in mind was if there was only a 4 way rewireable Wylex there in the first place the space for a replacement can be limited (if of course the replacement occupies the same spot)

Even in a kitchen how often are you gonna have a blender a toaster a kettle a water distiller or whatever all running simultaneously? And for how long?

In a small house where the kitchen is the utility room, you might have a dishwasher, washing machine and tumble drier all on together for over an hour. Ironing the previous load while the next one is washing and drying. A cuppa, kippers on toast. It's not a given that a 20A circuit won't get a little warm!
I don't disagree that other designs work, and multiple radials is certainly possible, but it is a convenient and resilient circuit for variable loads.

Aside from their ability to 'just get on with' periods of heavy use, they are probably the circuit that it is easiest to prove is in an excellent condition and discover modifications via the extensive tests that are possible.

To clarify, I don't think anyone is saying that we can't possibly do without them. It's about whether there are benefits to choosing to use them.