Horstmann Economy 7 Quartz Timer Inverted

[thennz]

Hi, we have this device in our home and looks like the timer is messed up.

It looks like the timer led is on when not in off-peak hours. I debugged this by just rotating the time dial and the timer led turns off for that 4-5 hours period and the rest of the day when I am turning it is on, so looks like it is inverted its operation.

I tried to kill the mains and turn off timer to somehow reset this thing but it is the same, maybe because of the battery in it.

Anyone knows what might happened here? The booster function is working fine, but not sure about the timer.

 

[Avo Mk8]

Is this the one you have?

https://www.eterna-lighting.co.uk/manuals/ECON7Q_IG.pdf

Edit: I've just been looking at the circuit diagram, and I think what you see is the way it's supposed to work.
ie when you switch the off-peak element on, the light comes on to show it's activated.
The neon indicator bulb does not come on with the element - it goes off when the elenent is on!
Probably covered in the instructions somewhere! - The light is labelled "timed" and is supposed to show that function is selected. It doesn't light up for the timed period only. In fact the circuit shows it goes off for the timed period.
Hopefully the element is heating - if so I'm pretty confident it will be 'on' for the period when the light is 'off'.

 

[thennz]

Is this the one you have?

https://www.eterna-lighting.co.uk/manuals/ECON7Q_IG.pdf

Edit: I've just been looking at the circuit diagram, and I think what you see is the way it's supposed to work.
ie when you switch the off-peak element on, the light comes on to show it's activated.
The neon indicator bulb does not come on with the element - it goes off when the elenent is on!
Probably covered in the instructions somewhere! - The light is labelled "timed" and is supposed to show that function is selected. It doesn't light up for the timed period only. In fact the circuit shows it goes off for the timed period.
Hopefully the element is heating - if so I'm pretty confident it will be 'on' for the period when the light is 'off'.

Yeah that is the one.

I don't remember if the LED was on by default all day long or not showing the timer is activated. Also it would be weird that the LED goes off when it is actually heating so the owner has no idea if it is on or not or what I have checked some other threads here which mentioned the same device and some of those had photos of the device and when they had the timer function turned on but the device was not in the off-peak hours the LED was off on those photos (or maybe they were just heating? strange), that is why I have no idea what is going on.

I think I will need to test it by using all the hot water today (what I did using the booster) and set the timer dial in a way that it will be in the off-peak hours by around 2-3 AM and see next day what happened.

 

[Avo Mk8]

Also it would be weird that the LED goes off when it is actually heating so the owner has no idea if it is on or not or what

I think the idea is that you're tucked up in bed when the off-peak heater is on, so it doesn't matter.

I'm confident that during the day, if the Water Heater switch is "on", the light will be on.
Then at night when the time switch switches from nc (normally closed) contact to no (normally open) contact, the element comes on, but the light goes off.

Here's the circuit that is powering the light during the day:

There's noting wrong with the behaviour of your time switch.

If the off-peak immersion heater is not working, it's probably the over temp cutout, the element, or the thermostat that is faulty.

 

[thennz]

I think the idea is that you're tucked up in bed when the off-peak heater is on, so it doesn't matter.

I'm confident that during the day, if the Water Heater switch is "on", the light will be on.
Then at night when the time switch switches from nc (normally closed) contact to no (normally open) contact, the element comes on, but the light goes off.

Here's the circuit that is powering the light during the day:
View attachment 95150
There's noting wrong with the behaviour of your time switch.

If the off-peak immersion heater is not working, it's probably the over temp cutout, the element, or the thermostat that is faulty.

Thanks for checking this. I tried it and it won't heat the water in the off-peak period unfortunately.

Also when it is not in off-peak hours the booster does not work. Only if I turn the clock dial to be in off-peak hours I can turn on the booster, very strange.

 

[Avo Mk8]

Thanks for checking this. I tried it and it won't heat the water in the off-peak period unfortunately.

Also when it is not in off-peak hours the booster does not work. Only if I turn the clock dial to be in off-peak hours I can turn on the booster, very strange.

I agree this is weird
Sorry more questions......

Is your hot water tank equipped with two immersion heaters, one near the bottom and one half way up, or is there a twin immersion in the top with two elements, or is there only one immersion heater?

Does the off-peak immersion actually work at all? I mean can you get hot water at any time without using the boost function at all?

During day time (peak), does the boost light come on when you set boost?

Have you looked at the times where the red and blue tappets are set inside the unit (with power off!)
Hopefully they are the right way round, ie 'on' followed by 'off' rather than the other way round!!

 

[thennz]

I agree this is weird
Sorry more questions......

Is your hot water tank equipped with two immersion heaters, one near the bottom and one half way up, or is there a twin immersion in the top with two elements, or is there only one immersion heater?

Does the off-peak immersion actually work at all? I mean can you get hot water at any time without using the boost function at all?

During day time (peak), does the boost light come on when you set boost?

Have you looked at the times where the red and blue tappets are set inside the unit (with power off!)
Hopefully they are the right way round, ie 'on' followed by 'off' rather than the other way round!!

Yes it has two immersions, one near the bottom and one half way.

Off-peak immersion worked 2 days ago but not now. So I configured the dial properly to make sure the correct time is set but in the morning we had no hot water. During that period around 3-7 AM or something that timer LED was off.

I cannot turn on the booster now when the timer LED is on. Before this I could use the booster during the day. Now I can only turn on the booster when I rotate the dial and set the timer to the off-peak period. In this case the timer LED is off, and I can turn on the booster and the booster LED will be ON and it works we can get hot water in an hour.

I have not tried to remove the housing and check those red/blue things, I am not entirely sure how they supposed to be configured. We have not touched this device at all so not sure if something happened with them.

I just took this picture, it is now 0:30 AM so I set the dial somewhere around that:

 

[Avo Mk8]

Yes it has two immersions, one near the bottom and one half way.

Off-peak immersion worked 2 days ago but not now. So I configured the dial properly to make sure the correct time is set but in the morning we had no hot water. During that period around 3-7 AM or something that timer LED was off.

I cannot turn on the booster now when the timer LED is on. Before this I could use the booster during the day. Now I can only turn on the booster when I rotate the dial and set the timer to the off-peak period. In this case the timer LED is off, and I can turn on the booster and the booster LED will be ON and it works we can get hot water in an hour.

I have not tried to remove the housing and check those red/blue things, I am not entirely sure how they supposed to be configured. We have not touched this device at all so not sure if something happened with them.

I just took this picture, it is now 0:30 AM so I set the dial somewhere around that:

View attachment 95196

I think something has broken in your timer.

Firstly I must apologise - in trying to work out what is happening, I see I made a mistake in reading the circuit diagram, and the timed lamp is not powered as I drew it. The blue and red paths I've sketched are completely wrong, so I'll take another look!!

I suspect you're right and the light is supposed to come on at night.

So I'm coming to the conclusion one of the changeover switches either in the clock mechanism, or in the boost switch, had gone faulty, or the mechanics working the switches has failed in some way. Sorry for misleading you!

You can still buy those timers, and there is also a digital one now, but I've seen at least one person have trouble setting up the digital version.

It is relatively straightforward to replace the front of the unit with a new one, you don't need to interfere with the back half screwed to the wall. But you would have to disconnect 5 or so wires from the old unit and then plug in wires attached to the new front, all with the power off of course. They are push-on connectors, so straightforward to do. It's all in the instructions!

I apologise for my carelessness with the circuit, and misleading info earlier

 

[brianmoooore]

Why are we discounting this just being a failed lower immersion heater?
All the settings in the last pic of the timer are correct for off peak heating of water.

 

[Avo Mk8]

Why are we discounting this just being a failed lower immersion heater?
All the settings in the last pic of the timer are correct for off peak heating of water.

It could be so, but I don't think that explains what's going on!
The behaviour of the Horstmann is really odd.
It was doing things it should not originally.
And now the OP is able to get the boost to work during off-peak, which is impossible according to the Horstmann design.
Irrespective of whether the off-peak immersion is working, the Horstmann isn't!

I cannot turn on the booster now when the timer LED is on.

This is how the Horstmann is supposed to behave. Only one immersion may be on at a time.

Now I can only turn on the booster when I rotate the dial and set the timer to the off-peak period.

If the timer had actually operated the switch to run the off-peak immersion, there should be no power to the boost immersion, so it should not come on, and the light should not light!

In this case the timer LED is off, and I can turn on the booster and the booster LED will be ON and it works we can get hot water in an hour.

When the timer is in an off-peak 'on' period, the timer LED should be on, and the boost should not work!
Just the opposite of what is happening.

I have not tried to remove the housing and check those red/blue things, I am not entirely sure how they supposed to be configured. We have not touched this device at all so not sure if something happened with them.

I don't think it is anything to do with the tappets now, I'm thinking something has gone wrong with the Horstmann

 

[brianmoooore]

The microswitches in these timers have been known to burn up. They are mounted close to the faceplate, which often shows evidence of this, in the form of a darkened area in front of where the switch is located.