How to upgrade really old Service Head, Meter and Consumer Unit

[MKhan7249]

Hi,

I am looking to get an electrician to upgrade my consumer unit and do some work on circuits. At the same time, have been receiving letters from E-On about upgrading to smart meters - this was supposed to happen a few years ago but when they visited, they refused to carry out any work.

Looking around the Internet, I can't find any images that represent the service head that I have installed at my house. My understanding is that this is really old and needs upgrading ASAP (images attached)

So a few questions I have:

• As the DNO owns the Service Head - how do I go about asking them to upgrade it (for free!), what do I say? I've sent them an email on Monday asking for inspection and awaiting a response
• If you look at the picture, the earth that is clamped to the board - is it supposed to be black? Look a bit burnt or could it be this black dripping thing I've read about?
• How long would it take to upgrade this?
• Can an electrician replace the consumer unit with this setup (i.e. the service head not upgraded)
• What fuse would I likely have?
• Are there any other concerns I should be aware of? (just by looking at this)

Any help would be very appreciated.
Many thanks.

 

[Julie.]

Hi,

I am looking to get an electrician to upgrade my consumer unit and do some work on circuits. At the same time, have been receiving letters from E-On about upgrading to smart meters - this was supposed to happen a few years ago but when they visited, they refused to carry out any work.

Looking around the Internet, I can't find any images that represent the service head that I have installed at my house. My understanding is that this is really old and needs upgrading ASAP (images attached)

So a few questions I have:

• As the DNO owns the Service Head - how do I go about asking them to upgrade it (for free!), what do I say? I've sent them an email on Monday asking for inspection and awaiting a response
• If you look at the picture, the earth that is clamped to the board - is it supposed to be black? Look a bit burnt or could it be this black dripping thing I've read about?
• How long would it take to upgrade this?
• Can an electrician replace the consumer unit with this setup (i.e. the service head not upgraded)
• What fuse would I likely have?
• Are there any other concerns I should be aware of? (just by looking at this)

Any help would be very appreciated.
Many thanks.

As the dno...
Highlight the fuse in the neutral - see below.
Depending on the amount of compound leakage - may be worth mentioning.

If you look at the picture...
The normal colour for this wire should be yellow/green, if older it could be just a green colour, and yes very old could have been black, however this would be unusual as it was normal to be completely bare. The black you are seeing is the tar type compound used as insulation in the service head, there is often minor leaking which isn't a problem, however if extensive then it is an issue.

How long would it take...
The dno would only take a couple of hours or so.

Can an electrician...
Yes, but they will highlight the issue of two fuses (see below) and it is probably best to get the service head done first.

What fuse...
They could be a wide range of values between 30 and 60A (often 40A) in that era, but actually could be up to 100A if they have been updated. HOWEVER the main issue is that there appears to be a fuse in both line and neutral - very common originally, however this is unacceptable practice today and should be addressed.

Are there any...
The fuse in the neutral is the most concerning - highlight this to the dno.

The earth wire is actually very undersized for modern practice, but will be addressed by changing the service head.

When you get a new consumer unit etc the electrician will use this larger cable, if this smaller cable is all that is there then there may be a big issue with fault levels and loop impedance (Ze and Zs) at various places in the installation, which needs to be confirmed by the electrician before he can energise. Hence probably better to get the head replaced first.

 

[Markyd]

Just by looking at that service head i would say that an EICR should be carried out before changing the CU.........A good bet the place needs rewiring

 

[MKhan7249]

Just by looking at that service head i would say that an EICR should be carried out before changing the CU.........A good bet the place needs rewiring

This is what I was thinking at first, but in a kitchen refit earlier this year, I was able to see the cables running between the floor/ceiling. T+E are 2.5mm^2 solid copper, some in white PVC others in grey but obviously with the old wiring colours.

There are some tin-copper wires which are either cut or no longer connected to anything left behind.

And, looking at the meter board, I think the space there, I assume was a previous fuse box or the like. On the CU, it has a "100A Main Switch".

So I think it was rewired once at some point.

 

[MKhan7249]

As the dno...
Highlight the fuse in the neutral - see below.
Depending on the amount of compound leakage - may be worth mentioning.

If you look at the picture...
The normal colour for this wire should be yellow/green, if older it could be just a green colour, and yes very old could have been black, however this would be unusual as it was normal to be completely bare. The black you are seeing is the tar type compound used as insulation in the service head, there is often minor leaking which isn't a problem, however if extensive then it is an issue.

How long would it take...
The dno would only take a couple of hours or so.

Can an electrician...
Yes, but they will highlight the issue of two fuses (see below) and it is probably best to get the service head done first.

What fuse...
They could be a wide range of values between 30 and 60A (often 40A) in that era, but actually could be up to 100A if they have been updated. HOWEVER the main issue is that there appears to be a fuse in both line and neutral - very common originally, however this is unacceptable practice today and should be addressed.

Are there any...
The fuse in the neutral is the most concerning - highlight this to the dno.

The earth wire is actually very undersized for modern practice, but will be addressed by changing the service head.

When you get a new consumer unit etc the electrician will use this larger cable, if this smaller cable is all that is there then there may be a big issue with fault levels and loop impedance (Ze and Zs) at various places in the installation, which needs to be confirmed by the electrician before he can energise. Hence probably better to get the head replaced first.

Thank you for answering and highlighting the fused neutral - I've done some research and see the importance of replacing this ASAP.

I've contacted UKPN twice and on both occasions, they've said that I have no authority in reporting this or making such requests - they can only speak to the supplier about reports of the cut-out

First call
I asked for the replacement of the fused neutral cut-out and referred to the earthing - they replied why? I said I want to upgrade to a smart meter and they said I need to contact my supplier and if they can't install it for any reason, they need to report to the DNO.

Second Call
I asked for a home visit: they found information from the previous supplier visit (when they refused to install a smart meter). This is a code C that doesn't require attention, it simply means 'information only'. They then told me to contact the supplier to get them to upgrade this code C to code A or code B if the cut-out needs replacing. They echoed the same as my first call, they don't respond to requests from consumers. I've contacted their Customer Care to get a copy of this information in writing.

 

[Julie.]

You could highlight to them that the service head appears dangerous with a fused neutral, and that it therefore breaches ESQCR 2002 regulations Part VII Regulation 24 paragraph 1 (a,b&c) which puts the responsibility squarely on the shoulders of the DNO as follows:


24.—(1) A distributor or meter operator shall ensure that each item of his equipment which is on a consumer’s premises but which is not under the control of the consumer (whether forming part of the consumer’s installation or not) is—

(a)suitable for its purpose;

(b)installed and, so far as is reasonably practicable, maintained so as to prevent danger; and

(c)protected by a suitable fusible cut-out or circuit breaker which is situated as close as is reasonably practicable to the supply terminals.

As having a fused neutral and potentially single insulated (old) conductors it fails on all three points

A) It is not suitable (fused neutral)
B) not been maintained in line with regulations
C)the fuse is not suitable , being in the neutral.

All dnos were supposed to ensure all fuses in the neutral were removed by 2013 as The ESQCR state that, as of 31st January 2013, fused neutrals shall not be retained. There is an HSE requirement for fused neutrals cut-outs to be removed within 28 days of being identified.

The Electricity Safety, Quality and Continuity Regulations 2002 also state under section 2 (iii) Pre-1937 cut-outs with fuses in earth or neutral conductors must be removed from service by 2013.

 

[telectrix]

if there is a fuse in the neutral, not a solid link,then DNO are obliged to attend and rectify. nothing to do with supplier.geton the phone and insist on a visit. theaten to contact ofgen.

 

[brianmoooore]

Mentioning a "burning smell" or similar usually motivates them.
It's possible that the neutral fuse has been replaced with a solid link?

 

[MKhan7249]

You could highlight to them that the service head appears dangerous with a fused neutral, and that it therefore breaches ESQCR 2002 regulations Part VII Regulation 24 paragraph 1 (a,b&c) which puts the responsibility squarely on the shoulders of the DNO as follows:


24.—(1) A distributor or meter operator shall ensure that each item of his equipment which is on a consumer’s premises but which is not under the control of the consumer (whether forming part of the consumer’s installation or not) is—

(a)suitable for its purpose;

(b)installed and, so far as is reasonably practicable, maintained so as to prevent danger; and

(c)protected by a suitable fusible cut-out or circuit breaker which is situated as close as is reasonably practicable to the supply terminals.

As having a fused neutral and potentially single insulated (old) conductors it fails on all three points

A) It is not suitable (fused neutral)
B) not been maintained in line with regulations
C)the fuse is not suitable , being in the neutral.

All dnos were supposed to ensure all fuses in the neutral were removed by 2013 as The ESQCR state that, as of 31st January 2013, fused neutrals shall not be retained. There is an HSE requirement for fused neutrals cut-outs to be removed within 28 days of being identified.

The Electricity Safety, Quality and Continuity Regulations 2002 also state under section 2 (iii) Pre-1937 cut-outs with fuses in earth or neutral conductors must be removed from service by 2013.

I've contacted UKPN emergencies department and they've also said I need to contact the supplier regarding the fused neutral. They require a B11 flow from the supplier.
But, for the black earth wire, they will be sending someone out to have a look soon.

I contacted E-On and the earliest appointment they've given me is 10th December - this is to attempt to install a smart meter which I assume they cannot and result in them reporting the situation to UKPN.

 

[DPG]

I've contacted UKPN emergencies department and they've also said I need to contact the supplier regarding the fused neutral. They require a B11 flow from the supplier.
But, for the black earth wire, they will be sending someone out to have a look soon.

I contacted E-On and the earliest appointment they've given me is 10th December - this is to attempt to install a smart meter which I assume they cannot and result in them reporting the situation to UKPN.

Nothing's ever easy!

 

[UNG]

Mentioning a "burning smell" or similar usually motivates them.
It's possible that the neutral fuse has been replaced with a solid link?

I must admit I have never come across an old double fused service head where they could fit a solid link in the neutral as they were all rewireable fuse carriers

I've contacted UKPN emergencies department and they've also said I need to contact the supplier regarding the fused neutral. They require a B11 flow from the supplier.
But, for the black earth wire, they will be sending someone out to have a look soon.

I contacted E-On and the earliest appointment they've given me is 10th December - this is to attempt to install a smart meter which I assume they cannot and result in them reporting the situation to UKPN.

How good is your hearing, can you not hear that faint crackling noise from the service head and report it.

I have never known a DNO be so obstructive or ask me to contact the supplier when it comes to safety issues unless they react differently if it is an electrician calling them, in my local area both of the DNO's would be out within a few hours of being called with an issue like this and depending on how urgent it was considered the DNO guy would have a jointing team onsite within 2 - 3 hours if it was considered urgent or 24 - 48 hours for a less urgent job

 

[Julie.]

I must admit I have never come across an old double fused service head where they could fit a solid link in the neutral as they were all rewireable fuse carriers

How good is your hearing, can you not hear that faint crackling noise from the service head and report it.

I have never known a DNO be so obstructive or ask me to contact the supplier when it comes to safety issues unless they react differently if it is an electrician calling them, in my local area both of the DNO's would be out within a few hours of being called with an issue like this and depending on how urgent it was considered the DNO guy would have a jointing team onsite within 2 - 3 hours if it was considered urgent or 24 - 48 hours for a less urgent job

Agree, never had issues like this.

It's usual for the dno to address this sort of thing pretty quickly.

You could (OP) try contacting the hse and asking them for advice, noting that the dno have 28 days from being informed and aren't even going to look at it for much longer than than let alone sort it.

 

[MKhan7249]

Mentioning a "burning smell" or similar usually motivates them.
It's possible that the neutral fuse has been replaced with a solid link?

How can one tell if it is a fused neutral or it's been replaced with a solid link?
I can confirm this hasn't been touched since 2000. Is it likely it may have been updated?

 

[snowhead]

I seem to remember seeing recently, maybe earlier in the year that the DNO now only take requests from the Supplier not the customer, so even if your cut-out is on fire you have to ring the supplier.

I'll see if I can find the link.

Just found this on UKPN site, it must be if it's loss of power or upgrades that go to the supplier first, emergencies still to the DNO

 

[UNG]

How can one tell if it is a fused neutral or it's been replaced with a solid link?
I can confirm this hasn't been touched since 2000. Is it likely it may have been updated?

It would need to be opened and the carrier pulled to confirm but only the DNO can do that

That doesn't look like it has been touched for 30+ years

I seem to remember seeing recently, maybe earlier in the year that the DNO now only take requests from the Supplier not the customer, so even if your cut-out is on fire you have to ring the supplier.

I'll see if I can find the link.

So in an emergency dialling 105 would connect me to the customers electricity supplier

If the cut out was on fire I would be calling the fire brigade and let them contact the DNO I would bet it would not take that long for the DNO to attend and they certainly wouldn't be asking them to contact the electricity supplier then

 

[Markyd]

This is what I was thinking at first, but in a kitchen refit earlier this year, I was able to see the cables running between the floor/ceiling. T+E are 2.5mm^2 solid copper, some in white PVC others in grey but obviously with the old wiring colours.

There are some tin-copper wires which are either cut or no longer connected to anything left behind.

And, looking at the meter board, I think the space there, I assume was a previous fuse box or the like. On the CU, it has a "100A Main Switch".

So I think it was rewired once at some point.

So you had a kitchen refit done this year and there is no RCD protection at the board...How was a cert issued for the work carried out, and just by looking at the cables doesnt mean you have underlying problems that will cause problems when the new cu is fitted

 

[MKhan7249]

So you had a kitchen refit done this year and there is no RCD protection at the board...How was a cert issued for the work carried out, and just by looking at the cables doesnt mean you have underlying problems that will cause problems when the new cu is fitted

My parents weren't aware that the kitchen fitter wasn't an electrician until after I realised so there was no certificate.

And I completely agree with you about getting an EICR before the CU upgrade.

 

[Vortigern]

I have rarely found that the first line operator at the DNO can be unhelpful. I usually ask to speak to their supervisor in such an instance. If I were on site I would propbably be able to get the DNO around within the hour. Reason being I can insist they meet their legal duties as per ESQCR statute, and also be able to talk about what we are looking at. To be clear, it is most definitely the responsibility of the DNO to attend and make safe their equipment which is all the parts prior to the meter. From the meter to the Consumer unit is the responsibility of the energy supplier, roughly speaking. There are some finer points to the exact parts but generally that is how it works.
So in summary I suggest you get a spark around to phone the DNO and talk turkey with them and get the cut-out sorted with a conversion to TN-C-S which is usually doable. It may cost a little but it can be another approach to getting a response. Sometimes we have to approach these problems with a different tack.

 

[MKhan7249]

I have received a call from UKPN in response to my initial online enquiry about a fuse upgrade. I've explained about the fused neutral and metal-encased cutout (sent them pictures) and they've arranged a site visit (with intention of replacing the cut-out) on the 15th November.

I've done some research. The cut-out is engraved with "NMEPS Co." which relates to North Metropolitan Electric Power Supply Company that merged to become Eastern Electricity in 1948. My meter itself has a sticker "Certified to 84". I'm sure this would be extremely valuable to historians.

 

[UNG]

I have received a call from UKPN in response to my initial online enquiry about a fuse upgrade. I've explained about the fused neutral and metal-encased cutout (sent them pictures) and they've arranged a site visit (with intention of replacing the cut-out) on the 15th November.

I've done some research. The cut-out is engraved with "NMEPS Co." which relates to North Metropolitan Electric Power Supply Company that merged to become Eastern Electricity in 1948. My meter itself has a sticker "Certified to 84". I'm sure this would be extremely valuable to historians.

I'm surprised they are taking that long to come out and sort it