Incompetant Person Y French Electrician

[SteveInFrance]

Hi,
This is my first post, it is a bit long but I felt a full explanation is necessary.
I am a competent DIYer and I live in the South of France where the rules are quite a bit different from the UK. The agent of a house I rent out requested a Divi (Quote) from what they said was the best electrician in the area, after a problem was reported by the tenant. The quote was for €400 to run a new earth to the property.
Now I know that the property has an earth, so went to investigate and found the problem in about two minutes. The 10mm cable from the consumer unit where it connects to the earth test point (barrette de coupure de terre) had become so lose that I just pulled it out. So after ten minutes to empty the cupboard so I could get to it, it was a simple two minute job to re-connect it safely. I really cannot believe that this sparky? was prepared to leave an installation in an unsafe condition while he prepared a quote sent it by post and waited for prepayment when he could have sorted it very quickly and sent me a bill for the call-out. OK the installation has RCD's, if they work.
Now, I have asked around for recommendations of other competent electricians but having seen their work wouldn't touch any of them. As a recommendation of "Call an Electrician" is not a reasonable solution, I am asking my question on here.
SO, my question: I have ordered a DiLog 9083P which is identical to the Seaward Powertest 1557
which from the specs will do everything I will ever want. And enable me to check that property and my own house on a regular basis.
Obviously I will do an Earth Loop test and insulation test and also test the RCD's while I am at it to ensure they are operating within spec.
Are there any other tests you guy's would suggest.
What would you recommend as the highest impedance I should accept bearing in mind that this is the South of France so the ground could be very dry.
Thanks in advance for any advice you can give.

 

[Midwest]

There are a series of dead tests & live tests as stipulated by BS7671.

Although electricity is essentially the same the world over, how its delivered to point of use varies. I would be apprehensive applying UK tests to a French installation, other members may feel differently. Having watched some of those tv shows, where French country piles are refurbished by Brits, I wish you well in your quest. You don't have a big bushy moustache by chance?

 

[fairlight]

You reconnected a broken earth connection but have no way of verifying whether that earth is adequate and complies with French regulations, perhaps that's why it was requested that a qualified electrician was employed for what is after all an essential safety issue.
If you are renting out this property I doubt very much that your claim of being competent will stand up in court should something go wrong resulting in electrocution or fire. If the work is carried out by a qualified person then you have met your obligation in law to ensure the safety of your tenant.

 

[FatAlan]

You state that you are the tenant. Surely you should raise your concerns with your agent..,especially if you believe an electrician is taking the ----. Surely you won’t be footing the bill for a basic maintenance issue?

 

[EricMark]

Insurance is a problem, work done even if sub standard by a registered tradesman is normally seen by insurance companies as you doing a good job ensuring the safety of your tenant, any DIY and you need to be able to show you have to skill to insurance companies and if things go very wrong a court.

The C&G2391 exam had a very low pass rate, this is the exam that shows you know what you are doing when inspecting and testing, and has a practical part and well as written, a British court would accept the 2391 exam as proof you had the skill, not sure in France but should while we are still in the EU be accepted.

In the exam it took around 45 minutes to test the board with standard components fitted to which the examiner had put in some faults for the student to find, if one was to test a house to the same standard one would likely look at a couple of days, and clearly we could not justify that, so the standard method is for any testing is test a percentage, if no faults then OK, if there are than percentage tested increases, however if one was to miss something one would still be called to task, so what many do is test until a fault is found, since once corrected it will need re-testing, then it's down to the guy re-testing if there are any faults not found. That is not what should happen, but it is what does happen.

France does not use the ring final as far as I am aware, but their sockets are polarised, however often German sockets are fitted which are not polarised, if we were to test a French property to British standards 95% would fail, that does not mean not safe, but standard are different, any German socket is a failure.

So you need to ask in a French forum, as we rarely have split phase supplies, and never German sockets.

 

[fairlight]

You state that you are the tenant. Surely you should raise your concerns with your agent..,especially if you believe an electrician is taking the ----. Surely you won’t be footing the bill for a basic maintenance issue?

I read it that the OP is the landlord and the problem was reported to the letting agency by the tenant, unless I've mis-read it.

 

[SteveInFrance]

Thanks very much for taking the time to reply, I am the landlord not the tenant. I could not sleep easy thinking one of these cowboys has passed it as safe. I know that if an accident happened they would just say "All OK when I left it!" Regardless of your qualifications in the UK trhey would not be accepted in France.
So I am in a quandry, let some cowboy do a bodge and let a tenant be electrocuted or satisfy myself that it is safe. Which is why I asked the question.
The UK is a different matter, I just wanted to check if I was on the right lines. Or there were other tests you would do to verify a good earth.
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Oh, I forgot. Now phases should be polarised but it rarely is, my house was 50:50 a friend had every cable in Mauve, Phase, Neurtral and earth! A friend with a new build which has just been passed is again about 50:50.

 

[fairlight]

Sorry but I find it hard to believe that there are not any competent electricians in your area and they are all cowboys.

 

[FatAlan]

I think I would be doing more research on reputable French electricians who complied with their regs especially if there was a trust issue with the agent.

 

[Chivers]

I found that Meter you've ordered to be ok for Testing ELI tests but the RCD test was erratic and often wouldn't work. I used one for basic tests on Radial circuits when I installed mobile comms racks .

 

[Mike Johnson]

This should help the OP on Earthing: Mise à la terre d'une installation électrique, norme NF C 15-100 - https://www.schema-electrique.net/mise-a-la-terre-installation-electrique-norme-NF-C-15-100.html

If you really want to know about French electrical installations this is invaluable: L'installation électrique - D.Fedullo, T.Gallauziaux - 6ème édition - Librairie Eyrolles - https://www.eyrolles.com/BTP/Livre/l-installation-electrique-9782212674941/ all in French, but lots of easily understood diagrams.

Just a thought there is a requirement for a "Compulsory Diagnostic Report" on any change of tenant.
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The most important check by French Electricians standards is the "Earth Resistance Test" it seems the Multimeter you have ordered will not carry out that test, also the Equipotential Bonding will be scrupulously checked all during the CDR.
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The most important check by French Electricians standards is the "Earth Resistance Test" it seems the Multimeter you have ordered will not carry out that test, also the Equipotential Bonding will be scrupulously checked all during the CDR, the electrician carrying out this check has to be either employed by a qualified company or be a member of the qualifying organisation, can't remember the name of the organisation at the moment.

 

[Mike Johnson]

This should help the OP on Earthing: Mise à la terre d'une installation électrique, norme NF C 15-100 - https://www.schema-electrique.net/mise-a-la-terre-installation-electrique-norme-NF-C-15-100.html

If you really want to know about French electrical installations this is invaluable: L'installation électrique - D.Fedullo, T.Gallauziaux - 6ème édition - Librairie Eyrolles - https://www.eyrolles.com/BTP/Livre/l-installation-electrique-9782212674941/ all in French, but lots of easily understood diagrams.

Just a thought there is a requirement for a "Compulsory Diagnostic Report" on any change of tenant.
[automerge]1573992097[/automerge]
The most important check by French Electricians standards is the "Earth Resistance Test" it seems the Multimeter you have ordered will not carry out that test, also the Equipotential Bonding will be scrupulously checked all during the CDR.
[automerge]1573992282[/automerge]
The most important check by French Electricians standards is the "Earth Resistance Test" it seems the Multimeter you have ordered will not carry out that test, also the Equipotential Bonding will be scrupulously checked all during the CDR, the electrician carrying out this check has to be either employed by a qualified company or be a member of the qualifying organisation, can't remember the name of the organisation at the moment.

A Diagnostic Immobilier is required by to be qualified in the six main areas of diagnostics in which they practice and will have a certificate to prove they have passed the required theoretical and practical examinations in France. These qualifications must be up to date and current with latest regulations. These are being updated constantly.

 

[SteveInFrance]

A Diagnostic Immobilier is required by to be qualified in the six main areas of diagnostics in which they practice and will have a certificate to prove they have passed the required theoretical and practical examinations in France. These qualifications must be up to date and current with latest regulations. These are being updated constantly.

Hi Mike,
Thank you for your good non-judgemental post, with the very interesting links.
I realise that I have to get it tested by a "Qualified" person but finding a competent one is the difficult part. I have chatted to some local builders and they have all had the same experience as me. They say, as soon as the guy gets a wiff of an English owner unnecessary work is added and the price rockets. But they have pointed me to a French qualified English guy but obviously he is so busy that he can't fit me in till the new year.
So I have bought the Di-Log 9083P which says it it 18th Edition compatable. Unfortunately it doesn't do a high current Earth Loop test but it says it has the same "patented"! technology as their bigger meters so presumably it is OK, but in hindsight, I wish I had spent a bit more to get a better one. However, at the moment my priority is to check that the installation is safe in my own mind. The tenants are away at the moment so I can't check their installation so I have been getting used to the meter by checking my own house. They are all TT systems here and mine is a grid ground electrode the same as the other house.
Thanks again for your post.

 

[Mike Johnson]

A local estate agent will be able to give you the name of a competent electrician.

The interesting point about French electrics is that anything beyond the main meter and trip is your responsibility, there is no requirement for any work on your side to be carried out by a qualified Electrician, it is only on the initial power up that "Council" checks and documentation have to be in place on the whole installation even if that whole installation is only one socket on a wall, however when you sell or let the property then a diagnostic has to be carried out by a "Diagnostic Immobilier" usually arranged by the Notarie acting for the sale of the property these checks includes lots of things including the electrics, termites, insulation, drainage, location, area/plan of buildings etc:

Link to the electrical diagnostic report check list: Liste des points de contrôle du diagnostic Electricité (Termite, Amiante, Carrez, DPE, Gaz, Plomb) - https://www.ariahabitat.com/diagnostic-electrique/diagnostic-electricite-31-point-de-controle.php

 

[SteveInFrance]

The interesting point about French electrics is that anything beyond the main meter and trip is your responsibility, there is no requirement for any work on your side to be carried out by a qualified Electrician, it is only on the initial power up that "Council" checks and documentation have to be in place on the whole installation even if that whole installation is only one socket on a wall,

Yes, and there are some very strange requirements. A friend of mine did the Electric installation on his new house and it failed the Consuel check because there was no socket in the wet room! So he had to pay for another test. He put a socket at 1.5 mt. high so he could put a mirror over it and it passed.

 

[Mike Johnson]

On all new installations there has to be a socket for disabled access in all rooms, so not as strange as it seems.

 

[Mike Johnson]

It may be also worth pointing out that in France all circuits are protected by RCD's.