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J

j3tox

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hi, i've just recently set up on my own and was wandering if anyone could help me filling out a test form for a rewire i have done for a friend,
1-What is the bs number for a bill 100a main fuse on a tns system?
2-How do i work out the prospective fault current?
3-What will the short circuit capacity be of the main fuse
4-where can i find the maximum permitted Zs for lighting circuit
5-where can i find the maximum permitted Zs for ring final circuit
6-where can i find the short circuit capacity for a lighting circuit
7-where can i find the short circuit capacity for a ring final circuit
8-Is R1 + R2 the resistance of live to earth on a low reading ohmeter

thanks to anyone who takes the time the help, i know i need to buy a copy of the regs, hopefully it'll be in my stocking

cheers jack
 
S

sivoodoo

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #2
You can find out all these things by:
a) going to college for a few years,
or
b) employing a quallified electrician,

Should this be in the jokes thread??

Sorry mate but if your asking these questions then ask yourself, should you be doing this work?
 
E

ezzzekiel

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #3
you are aware of partp i take?
 
J

j3tox

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #4
hi, thought i might of got that type of response, i went to college for four years and have been a fully qualified spark for three years now. I know most of the sparks i know don't know these questions and thats why i've not asked them. You only really need to know this sort of stuff once your trading alone. I know my job inside out on the tools and work to a very high standard. I have just joined the niceic and am waiting to be inspected. I know there is a lot of competition out there but i thought being a spark we would all work together, obviously not. We've all got to start someone you know and when your mocked for asking a question then i'm not gonna learn the right way thus bringing the standard of electrical contracting down.

Jack
 

ian.settle1

-
Mentor
Arms
You can find out all these things by:
a) going to college for a few years,
or
b) employing a quallified electrician,

Should this be in the jokes thread??

Sorry mate but if your asking these questions then ask yourself, should you be doing this work?

I agree if you have had 4 years training and out of your time for another 3 years why are you asking such STUPID questions? And sparks you work with don't know the answers would not them loose to do anything electrical GOD HELP us all.

NICEIC come round you will have wasted your money if you don't know the answers by now.

You have brought the standard down already setting up on your own and you do not know answer's to the basic questions.
 
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J

j3tox

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #6
Hold up a second sunshine and get down of your high horse, are you telling me you know every reg without consulting the regs book? i think not. I will one hundred and ten percent guarantee i have not wasted my money as i will pass the niceic and proceed to learn and better myself throughout my career. Obviously not with the help of jumped up maggots like yourself. If your that good of a spark why are you not at work now? because nobody would work with such a ---- as yourself.

I'm 22 and trying to earn a living doing a good job for a fair price with every intention of getting to the highest level. I have swallowed my pride to ask for help only to be kicked in the nuts by you an obvious stereotypical little man.

God help your boyfrind/wife
 
S

sivoodoo

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #7
Look mate, the questions you are asking are not Jack and Jill level 1. They are serious technical questions that need to be fully understood inside out, I study inspection and testing as a hobby and as part of my work late into the night every day, I also aim to join an approved scheme in the future primarily so I can test my work to ensure it is safe more than to make money, but NOT until I understand the principles inside out, this will take me time, and I want to make sure I know what i am talking about, to the customer, to the Inspector and to a Judge if anything went wrong god forbid!
Testing and inspecting involves a lot of academic understanding, yes you can press a button on a tester, but do you know what the results mean?
Its hard work but the effort is worth it knowing that your installations are safe.
Anyone wanting to make a fast buck from this game will come a cropper sooner or later.
I am not taking the p*ss here mate, if you really want to go down this path, you have a lot of reading to do, or the inspectors will take you apart!
 

ian.settle1

-
Mentor
Arms
Hold up a second sunshine and get down of your high horse, are you telling me you know every reg without consulting the regs book? i think not. I will one hundred and ten percent guarantee i have not wasted my money as i will pass the niceic and proceed to learn and better myself throughout my career. Obviously not with the help of jumped up maggots like yourself. If your that good of a spark why are you not at work now? because nobody would work with such a ---- as yourself.

I'm 22 and trying to earn a living doing a good job for a fair price with every intention of getting to the highest level. I have swallowed my pride to ask for help only to be kicked in the nuts by you an obvious stereotypical little man.

God help your boyfrind/wife

I think you trained as something else than an electrician as these should have been taught to as first princples with those questions, at least i know where to look in the regs seems like you dont.

Another thing that frightens me is that if you do not know where to find Zs for lights etc

HOW THE HELL DO YOU DO YOUR CALCULATIONS TO MAKE SURE THAT THE PROTECTIVE DEVICE AND CABLE ARE CORRECT.

By the way I am at work as I need one for my work
 
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M

mazolaman

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #9
What these guys are saying is true,not a jibe.
I am not a sparky,only a competent person,for the limited scope of work I require to do.
However,I still needed to sit for day after day,going through-
The 16th,and17th edition handbook.
the wiring regs,
hsr25 electricity at work memorandum,
the guidance note 3 on testing.
The building regs.

That was to do the inital course.

Even then,on the elecsa inspection,the guy tore me to pieces at times,where he found a hole.
All the info you need is in the regs and handbook,and if you dont know how to test for Zs,the NIC guy will laugh at you.
Get your nose in the books.
 
J

j3tox

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #10
thanks mozolaman, i can test for Zs i'm just not sure what the short circuit capacity is for a main fuse, i'm waiting on a new edition of the regs from amazon hopefully here tomorrow, cheers jack
 
E

ezzzekiel

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #11
i would suggest buing a copy of gn3 its about £20 this covers most things you need to know
 
K

Kris

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #12
hi, i've just recently set up on my own and was wandering if anyone could help me filling out a test form for a rewire i have done for a friend,
1-What is the bs number for a bill 100a main fuse on a tns system?
2-How do i work out the prospective fault current?
3-What will the short circuit capacity be of the main fuse
4-where can i find the maximum permitted Zs for lighting circuit
5-where can i find the maximum permitted Zs for ring final circuit
6-where can i find the short circuit capacity for a lighting circuit
7-where can i find the short circuit capacity for a ring final circuit
8-Is R1 + R2 the resistance of live to earth on a low reading ohmeter

thanks to anyone who takes the time the help, i know i need to buy a copy of the regs, hopefully it'll be in my stocking

cheers jack
Hi mate the guys have been telling you the truth, the kind of questions you asked here are basic question that you should have covered in the first or second year at college. I've got my 2391 and I would be worried about the NIC coming down! Go get the Brian Scadden 2391 book its about 12 quid and will help you a lot but I warn you try to put the NIC off for a bit because you are not ready with these questions the other guys are right your gonna get laughed at! Anyway lets see, 1,3,4,5 - will all be in the right part of the regs. 2 - you don't work it out you take a measurment. 6,7 - these vary and are written on the side of the mcb's you are using. 8 - yes thats right but only when you connect them together at the board and take the measurment at the end of line on a dead system.

Look your only 22 swallow your pride and go back to your firm for a bit, with these questions you will never get NIC registered at the mo. Read up on your electrical principles go do the 2391 and give it a bit of time (we all had to) if you try doing it at the mo your gonna end up getting someone hurt or worse!
 
Hi Mate,
Just like to say what Kris said was spot on...but to briefly add to that the main 100amp fuse your talking about is more than likely a BS88 type fuse plus the prospective fault current reading you acquire in KA should be less than the breaking capacity of the fuse plus mcb's in your DB...These values are found on the mcb's/fuses.....just be careful and improve your knowledge before you get yourself into trouble.
 
M

maddfridge

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #14
hi, i've just recently set up on my own and was wandering if anyone could help me filling out a test form for a rewire i have done for a friend,
1-What is the bs number for a bill 100a main fuse on a tns system?
2-How do i work out the prospective fault current?
3-What will the short circuit capacity be of the main fuse
4-where can i find the maximum permitted Zs for lighting circuit
5-where can i find the maximum permitted Zs for ring final circuit
6-where can i find the short circuit capacity for a lighting circuit
7-where can i find the short circuit capacity for a ring final circuit
8-Is R1 + R2 the resistance of live to earth on a low reading ohmeter

thanks to anyone who takes the time the help, i know i need to buy a copy of the regs, hopefully it'll be in my stocking

cheers jack

Hi there

The varied comments on here are all correct to some degree but what they all miss is that we all ahve to start somewhere usually the bottom been there and still climbing.

pscc three ways
1. ask the rec dno to supply details
ie .35 ze and 16ka
2. calc Rs -Ze=R! +R2 etc then Uo/Zs=pscc Uo =230 divide by Zs and you have it
3 measure it.

max Zs are dependant upon the fuse mcb type etc


If you get guidance note no 3 and get a 2391 test cd from somewhere you can start to put all of this together. but I would really look at college
or a course. You have a duty to work safely to protect you and all the other in the world 1974 HASAWA 1989 electricity at work act.

dont want to seem a kiljoy but at least you made the first step forward
good luck

ps you need onsite guide regs and guidance note 3 to really do anything but see if you can work with other sparkies and get some more experience especialy at tester that will be really benefical
dont want to seem a kiljoy but at least you made the first step forward
good luck
:)
 
S

sparkymaz

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #15
To be honest mate, if you are waiting for your inspection you need to make sure you get your head round the testing aspect. If you cant show competency in this they will fail you. A collection of books i found very useful are by a bloke called scadden. search on amazon for 'Brian Scaddan'. there is an inspection and testing book there that was very usefull to me. Details on inspection and testing can be found in the 'On site guide' also. These books give you valuable advice and information about the rules and regs. You can also try guidance notes 3 (I think, it is very late). You have a good tester as well i take it?
 
M

michufc

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #16
Hold up a second sunshine and get down of your high horse, are you telling me you know every reg without consulting the regs book? i think not. I will one hundred and ten percent guarantee i have not wasted my money as i will pass the niceic and proceed to learn and better myself throughout my career. Obviously not with the help of jumped up maggots like yourself. If your that good of a spark why are you not at work now? because nobody would work with such a ---- as yourself.

I'm 22 and trying to earn a living doing a good job for a fair price with every intention of getting to the highest level. I have swallowed my pride to ask for help only to be kicked in the nuts by you an obvious stereotypical little man.

God help your boyfrind/wife
i have just started my own business and been assesed by the niceic recently i am not trying to be funny with you but will get GRILLED and i mean GRILLED so you really need some urgent revision in testing and inspecting.

not trying to affend you but you must realise why people are so enoyed because there are so cowboys out there

good luck
 
4

4x4 mark

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #17
you might be the best spark in the world at what you do, but if that is just metal munching or glanding big armoureds off then you will fail your inspection with the nic as they expect you to be able to test and inspect your work, i aint poking fun at you cos i went for a long time with no experiance of t and t but i got sick of a bloke at work looking down his nose at me saying i wasnt a proper spark.
i know you are looking for answers to your questions but you need to do the 2391 course and get your head round it cos just buying a copy of the regs will not give you the ability to ask "so how did you get that answer".
 

bonjovi

-
Arms
all im going to say now that you have rewired your mate house is pay someone to test it and make sure it is safe and complies with the regulations .
and then if you dont fancy paying every time you do any work go on a course and understand the principles
nowdays someone has to be ACCOUNTABLE for a accident if i happens , that is why the paperwork is their to tell a court if a house catches fire or someone dies who did it and did it complyto regs. because you will be facing 15yrs in the slammer for manslaughter OR be sued for the cost of the house fire plus possestions . take the course with knowledge that is what will make you a better spark i believe this is you next step
 
R

RETIREDSPARKY

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #19
Where have all the standards gone, a long time passing!!!!!
 
G

Guest123

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #20
Have to say i'm amazed, whilst I respect you trying on your own in this tough financial climate, You really will strugle with your NIC assessment. In your shoes I would postpone my assessment and go do the C&G 2391. It's a great course and worth every penny.
 
M

maddfridge

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #21
Have to say i'm amazed, whilst I respect you trying on your own in this tough financial climate, You really will strugle with your NIC assessment. In your shoes I would postpone my assessment and go do the C&G 2391. It's a great course and worth every penny.
oh come on :D:D:D:D:D

Now you are having a laugh 2391 a great course ?????????

if it is that great why are they having to split it up to make it easier ???

2391 needs changing and rapidly when i took it in 2004 it was solely aimed at the domestic market .

lo and behold along came part p for other trade who could not manage it .

It should be split up into the main academic side like 29 week evenings and then sit the exam.

once you have got that then you sit the practical that way at least you know the theory and then prove afterward.

The pass mark is around 20 to 30 percent per exam as i am led to believe .

What we are all missing here is not the fact that we have to try to get work experience then qualified this was called an apprenticeship. Know many of these around no i did not thinks .

and by the way 2391 is now the design course as well.

so everyone what do you think needs to happen more training more jobs ??

the answer is one governing body for electrical like the way the gas corgi is
and yes i know thats not perfect but at least is is in one place

happy new year to you all
 
G

Guest123

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #22
I fail to see how you can claim that in 2004 it was aimed at the domestic market. I did mine in 2003 and there were short and long answer questions on 3p inspection and testing along with problems in industrial, commercial and agricultural situations. My course was 14 week evenings followed by a 2hour practical and then a 2 and a half hour written exam.

Also the 2391 is not the design course. the 2391 02 is the design course just changed the number is all from 2400.
 
M

maddfridge

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #23
I fail to see how you can claim that in 2004 it was aimed at the domestic market. I did mine in 2003 and there were short and long answer questions on 3p inspection and testing along with problems in industrial, commercial and agricultural situations. My course was 14 week evenings followed by a 2hour practical and then a 2 and a half hour written exam.

Also the 2391 is not the design course. the 2391 02 is the design course just changed the number is all from 2400.
hi there
sorry mate you are behind a little C & G 2391-301.302,303,304 is all under one number to avoid confusion ???

this has replaced 2400 just sat the exam on the 9th Dec and sent project of last week some effort !

What i was implying that was the way the course was aimed was not as the commercial side as it was set up on the domestic theme so when you came to the exam many had studied the domestic stuff and were stuffed when it came to it. I work with two guys who had this happen to them in 2006 and 2007 and have spent some time in helping them through it. all that effort to find it may be split into two areas ???

yeah you guessed it commercial and domestic so if our friend on here has a niceic inspection will that only be domestic or industrial with so many trade associations around all with varying degrees of standards what should it be ?

The idea of a standard testing regime is good and of course can be used in both spheres but a what point do you draw the line.

i will start a new thread if you don't mind about what standard of competence should an electrician deemed to be competent
i know what the reg state .

cheers
 
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G

Guest123

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #24
Ok, I understand a little more about what you are getting at now.

I agree with your thoughts on a "corgi" style body for insp and test, as there are as you rightly state so many different associations for part "p" out there.

I dont think you could seperate the main area's of the work i.e domestic, industrial commercial agricultural etc as where I live a company could not survive on domestic alone - very rural.

In larger cities you probably could as indeed some of the guys on here do.

Also starting a new thread like the one you suggested will open a massive can of worms as lots of people feel very strongly about it.
 
M

maddfridge

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #25
whoops done it anyway

i like worms cut one in half and you get two.
bit like mondays now seem like the rest of the week

back tomorrrow for more testing and stuff

dont you feel sorry for the poor lottery winner who is 800000 short because of lost tickets sales

cheers
 
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