No Certificate For New Electrics And Local Authority Demands

[TMess]

In case anyone is wondering, this is an off-shoot and connected to another thread in this forum.

We completed a garage conversion which involved Building Control. As part of the conversion, 3 new sockets were installed into the existing ring main and new spotlights daisy chained from the existing lighting circuit. An NICEIC-registered electrician undertook the work, invoiced for it, and said he would send the Part P certificate.

That was 2 months ago and we have not received the certificate or paid him despite countless phone calls on his mobile and landline, emails and text messages. All of his telephones ring (without immediately forwarding to voicemail) and his emails do not bounce. We simply cannot get hold of him.

A fellow Electricians Forums member proposed we have an Electrical Inspection Condition Report (EICR) undertaken, for a fee of £150. He said that this situation is not uncommon (!?) and he has never had a Local Authority refuse an EICR in such scenarios.

Having spoken to Building Control, they will only accept having the work 'tested' by their own sub-contractor and want a fee of £380 for this 'regularisation' work. We queried whether our newly found electrician can undertake the same 'tests' that their sub-contractor would and obviously at a much more sensible price. Their response was a firm 'no'.

Do we have any options available to us other than pay Building Control this extortionate fee? Surely they can't get away with charging such disproportionate amounts for work that any other competent person could do at the correct market price?

Any advice would very much be appreciated.

 

[Guest123]

Re: No Certificate For New Electrics And Local Authority Demands Read more: http://

I'm afraid if that is the stance of your LABC, you dont have any other option.

Consider contacting trading standard re; the un-obtainable electrician.

 

[telectrix]

Re: No Certificate For New Electrics And Local Authority Demands Read more: http://

a point comes to mind here.

if the work did not involve new circuits, and it's not a special location (bathroom) or kitchen, then it's not notifiable to BC.

 

[TMess]

Re: No Certificate For New Electrics And Local Authority Demands Read more: http://

a point comes to mind here.

if the work did not involve new circuits, and it's not a special location (bathroom) or kitchen, then it's not notifiable to BC.

This was a garage converted into a living room. Upon mentioning your point to BC, their policy (apparently) states that any electrical work requires certification. Is there a written law somewhere that states a LABC cannot demand a certificate?

 

[telectrix]

if BC were involved, as in planning , then they would require a certificate from a qualified spark , but most BC's don't bother if there have not been new circuits added.

 

[tony mc]

Part P of the building regs state what is and is not notifiable.

AS far as the work is concerned a Minor Works should be acceptable which is a certificate (MEIWC) IMO.

Also have you taken this up with the NICEIC if he is useing their logo!



Sent from my Nokia 3330 brick

 

[Guest55]

tell building control to shove it up their jacksey.
then remind them that under the EU freedom of labour & restrictive practices laws they have no legal power to insist you use one contractor over another , especially as youre a private property owner.
hire a electrician in a domestic installer scheme , they'll have to accept his certs.

 

[TMess]

if BC were involved, as in planning , then they would require a certificate from a qualified spark , but most BC's don't bother if there have not been new circuits added.

Are you referring to a Part P Certificate or an EIRC?

 

[ruston]

As these seem to be" additions " this will not be notifiable. As has been said if no new circuits have been added or the Circuit protective device has not been altered it will not be notifiable.

Planning Portal - Approved Document P


Particularly read the parts on non notifiable work. This is the document that the LABC must work to. The rest is folklore.

 

[TMess]

tell building control to shove it up their jacksey.
then remind them that under the EU freedom of labour & restrictive practices laws they have no legal power to insist you use one contractor over another , especially as youre a private property owner.
hire a electrician in a domestic installer scheme , they'll have to accept his certs.

Does this apply if we are the contractor, and not the property owner where the work was undertaken?

 

[Guest55]

Does this apply if we are the contractor, and not the property owner where the work was undertaken?

eh ? so youre not the homeowner then ?

 

[Knobhead]

Three theads all on the same subject?
All could have been rolled in to one.

 

[TMess]

eh ? so youre not the homeowner then ?

No. We are a contractor (general builder) who sub-contracted this sparky.

We have since let the homeowner (our client) know of the current situation. Thankfully they are more than sympathetic and are giving us the time to find a good solution.

 

[TMess]

Three theads all on the same subject?
All could have been rolled in to one.

Sorry Tony, I don't intentionally mean to make a forum 'mess' of threads. However I saw this and the other thread as entirely separate questions. Bunging them all together would create a far too long opening post.

 

[morph]

labc do seem to get confused , which is a worry.... they all ways insist on timer fans too which acording to the elctricians guide to the build regs are only needed if the bathroom does not have a openable window

 

[Guitarist]

Are you sure he was NIC registered? It seems loads of people claim to be, and even put the logo on their stationary and van, but it turns out they're not.

 

[Guest55]

No. We are a contractor (general builder) who sub-contracted this sparky.

We have since let the homeowner (our client) know of the current situation. Thankfully they are more than sympathetic and are giving us the time to find a good solution.

to be honest , the battle with the council needs to taken up by the property owner
theres only so much you the contractor can do.
have planning fees been paid for the conversion ?
if they have i wouldnt be handing over a penny more.

 

[Guitarist]

labc do seem to get confused , which is a worry.... they all ways insist on timer fans too which acording to the elctricians guide to the build regs are only needed if the bathroom does not have a openable window

All depends who you speak to at BC.....which is even more of a worry. They seem to know as much about the regs as many of the "experienced, fully qualified electricians" we get on here at times....

 

[telectrix]

i can't understand why they want any certificate if the electrical work is non-notifiable. the home owner should have a Minor Electrical Works Installation Certificate, but that's all.

 

[Guitarist]

That was 2 months ago and we have not received the certificate or paid him despite countless phone calls on his mobile and landline, emails and text messages. All of his telephones ring (without immediately forwarding to voicemail) and his emails do not bounce. We simply cannot get hold of him.

A fellow Electricians Forums member proposed we have an Electrical Inspection Condition Report (EICR) undertaken, for a fee of £150. He said that this situation is not uncommon (!?) and he has never had a Local Authority refuse an EICR in such scenarios.

Surely you are quids-in even if you do have to pay £380, as you haven't had to pay the sparky.
Btw, make sure you speak to the senior officer at LBC.

 

[telectrix]

They seem to know as much about the regs as many ....

but they allow plumbers and builders to get away with murder.

 

[Guest55]

this sort of offialdom nonsense makes me puke.
theyre totally clueless.

 

[Guitarist]

i can't understand why they want any certificate if the electrical work is non-notifiable. the home owner should have a Minor Electrical Works Installation Certificate, but that's all.

It sounds to me like they are saying that it needs certifying by the electrician that carried out the work, not notifying. However, as he is incommunicado, this cannot occur. Therefore, they have to step in and make sure it is "up to regs", hence the fee.
Surely, if he invoiced you, you know his address. Pop and find out what's going on.

 

[TMess]

As these seem to be" additions " this will not be notifiable. As has been said if no new circuits have been added or the Circuit protective device has not been altered it will not be notifiable.

Planning Portal - Approved Document P

Particularly read the parts on non notifiable work. This is the document that the LABC must work to. The rest is folklore.

The piece relevant to us would be:

"Work that is not in a kitchen or special location and does not involve a special installation and consists of:

• Adding lighting points (light fittings and switches) to an existing circuit [Only if the existing circuit protective device is suitable and provides protection for the modified circuit, and other relevant safety provisions are satisfactory.]
• Adding socket-outlets and fused spurs to an existing ring or radial circuit [Only if the existing circuit protective device is suitable and provides protection for the modified circuit, and other relevant safety provisions are satisfactory.]"

However, as the ring was extended around the room and thus new cable was run to these sockets, does this not go against the following:

"Replacing any fixed electrical equipment (for example, socket-outlets, control switches and ceiling roses) which does not include the provision of any new fixed cabling."

 

[morph]

i live near you i will do it ha ha

 

[Guest55]

It sounds to me like they are saying that it needs certifying by the electrician that carried out the work, not notifying. However, as he is incommunicado, this cannot occur. Therefore, they have to step in and make sure it is "up to regs", hence the fee.

not having a go at you , but thats not the point.
the work can be verified as satisfactory by any competant person - for alot less than nearly £400.

 

[TMess]

Are you sure he was NIC registered? It seems loads of people claim to be, and even put the logo on their stationary and van, but it turns out they're not.

Yes. A call to NICEIC this afternoon confirmed he is 'still' registered.

 

[Guitarist]

not having a go at you , but thats not the point.
the work can be verified as satisfactory by any competant person - for alot less than nearly £400.

I agree biff. Just trying to make sense of their logic here. The law as it stands states that you cannot certify someone else's work (unless you are the QS of that person), so if BC feel they have to follow that rule then in their opinion they have to inspect it themselves.

 

[TMess]

to be honest , the battle with the council needs to taken up by the property owner
theres only so much you the contractor can do.
have planning fees been paid for the conversion ?
if they have i wouldnt be handing over a penny more.

Planning was not required for the work. However Building Control was, which we paid for and organised on behalf of the client.

 

[baldelectrician]

I can't believe the fiasco that is Part P

Up in Scotland the fees are set Scotland wide and the Buliding Standards accept NICEIC or SELECT (and sometimes other) certificates

 

[ruston]

The piece relevant to us would be:

"Work that is not in a kitchen or special location and does not involve a special installation and consists of:

• Adding lighting points (light fittings and switches) to an existing circuit [Only if the existing circuit protective device is suitable and provides protection for the modified circuit, and other relevant safety provisions are satisfactory.]
• Adding socket-outlets and fused spurs to an existing ring or radial circuit [Only if the existing circuit protective device is suitable and provides protection for the modified circuit, and other relevant safety provisions are satisfactory.]"

However, as the ring was extended around the room and thus new cable was run to these sockets, does this not go against the following:

"Replacing any fixed electrical equipment (for example, socket-outlets, control switches and ceiling roses) which does not include the provision of any new fixed cabling."

IF you altered the circuit then that s a different situation . Did you alter it:devilish:.

 

[TMess]

i can't understand why they want any certificate if the electrical work is non-notifiable. the home owner should have a Minor Electrical Works Installation Certificate, but that's all.

But can anyone issue a Minor Electrical Works Installation Certificate, even if they had not undertaken the installation themselves?

 

[morph]

But can anyone issue a Minor Electrical Works Installation Certificate, even if they had not undertaken the installation themselves?

technically no !

 

[TMess]

IF you altered the circuit then that s a different situation . Did you alter it:devilish:.

Here is a very rough sketch of what work was carried out. Is this classed as 'alteration' in terms of the Part P regulations?

 

[Guitarist]

But can anyone issue a Minor Electrical Works Installation Certificate, even if they had not undertaken the installation themselves?

As I have already said, I think this is what BC are getting testy about. Any competent person can carry out non-notifiable work, but it must be that person who certifies it. As this has not happened, they want to check it themselves.

 

[Guest55]

However Building Control was, which we paid for and organised on behalf of the client.

really ???
then you've already paid the fees and all that is required now is the paperwork.
if it was me , i'd get a EICR done for the circuits that were worked on by a part p spark.
give report to homeowner and get him to hand it over to BC and do nothing.
you've complied with regs so sit back and let them take the next move.

 

[TMess]

As I have already said, I think this is what BC are getting testy about. Any competent person can carry out non-notifiable work, but it must be that person who certifies it. As this has not happened, they want to check it themselves.

In which case, do they have a leg to stand on in terms of forcing us to use their own sub-contractors and charging a ridiculous amount for the 'privilege'?

And when you say "that person who certifies it", are you referring to issuing a Part P cert or something along the lines of an EICR?

 

[morph]

dont even need to be a part p spark , cant see why this has become such a big deal
as said get a EICR done

 

[Bradzz]

Building control have to foot the bill not the house holder. Section 1.26 of part P says this. but for some reason when you download this its blank just in that section ? look on line at this link
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_ADP_2006.pdf



page 11
bottom right

 

[TMess]

really ???
then you've already paid the fees and all that is required now is the paperwork.
if it was me , i'd get a EICR done for the circuits that were worked on by a part p spark.
give report to homeowner and get him to hand it over to BC and do nothing.
you've complied with regs so sit back and let them take the next move.

If at all possible, we would rather get everything signed off on behalf of the client (homeowner), as that is what we agreed to do and is part of our entire building service.

Can we just confirm that the electrical work is in deed not notifiable? (I have attached a diagram above)

 

[Guitarist]

In which case, do they have a leg to stand on in terms of forcing us to use their own sub-contractors and charging a ridiculous amount for the 'privilege'?

And when you say "that person who certifies it", are you referring to issuing a Part P cert or something along the lines of an EICR?

There is no such thing as a "part P cert". When we carry out notifiable work, we log it with our scheme provider, and the scheme provider notifies LBC and sends the homeowner a certificate. The electrician does not issue any kind of certificate himself, just test results.

 

[ruston]

No if you have paid the notification fee it is down to them , it's in the document if you have another look.

 

[TMess]

Building control have to foot the bill not the section 1.26 of part P says this. but for some reason when you download this its blank just in that section ? look on line at this link
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_ADP_2006.pdf

page 11
bottom right

Hmmm, 1.26 of Part P which includes the 2010 amendment (http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/AD_P_wm.pdf) states otherwise:

"The building control body may choose to carry out the inspection and testing itself, or to contract out some or all of the work to a specialist body to carry out the work on its behalf. Where the building control body is a local authority it cannot require the building owner to undertake this work. However, under the Building (Local Authority Charges) Regulations 2010, the authority may charge a higher building control charge when first notified the work or levy a supplementary charge later, based on the recovery of its costs."

 

[morph]

No if you have paid the notification fee it is down to them , it's in the document if you have another look.

only if the electrical work was listed in the job description

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Having spoken to Building Control, they will only accept having the work 'tested' by their own sub-contractor and want a fee of £380 for this 'regularisation' work. We queried whether our newly found electrician can undertake the same 'tests' that their sub-contractor would and obviously at a much more sensible price. Their response was a firm 'no'.

Do we have any options available to us other than pay Building Control this extortionate fee? Surely they can't get away with charging such disproportionate amounts for work that any other competent person could do at the correct market price?

The term 'regularisation' work is used by many LABCs for notifying the work after it has been carried out.
Under Part P there are three methods for notification.
One is to pre-notify the work and pay the appropriate fee, the LABC will usually inspect the work once or maybe twice, and as long as the work is satisfactory, issue a Building Regulations Compliance Certificate.
In many cases the LABC will waive the inspections if they are happy that the tradesman is suitably qualified, and that the tradesman will issue an EIC/MEWIC upon completion.
The preferred method is to employ a tradesman who is registered with a Self Certification or Competent Persons scheme. The tradesman will then issue the Building Regulations Compliance Certificate.
The third and most expensive method is to notify retrospectively. The LABC will usually arrange for an Inspector to conduct an inspection and issue an EICR. The LABC then if the report is acceptable issue the Building Regulations Compliance Certificate.

Although the additions listed are not notifiable under Part P, it appears that either a planning application was made, or some form of notification was made to the LABC for the whole extension.
If the wiring additions were included in either a planning application, or LABC notification, then the LABC would apply the same criteria as if the work was notifiable under Part P.
As such if inspections have been waived and an EIC/MEWIC is expected and you are unable to produce one, the LABC will treat this as a retrospective notification, and will charge the fee accordingly.
It is not just the EICR that you wil be paying the LABC for, but also for regularising the retrospective notification.

You could argue extenuating circumstances, and that the electrical work is not notifiable under Part P, but you are still left with work that does not have an EIC/MEWIC and as such does not comply with the Electrical Regulations.
You will have to convince the LABC that the work is not notifiable, and without an EIC/MEWIC, that is going to be very hard to do.
Do the initial plans indicate that the existing circuits are to be extended rather than new circuits installed?

 

[TMess]

You could argue extenuating circumstances, and that the electrical work is not notifiable under Part P, but you are still left with work that does not have an EIC/MEWIC and as such does not comply with the Electrical Regulations.
You will have to convince the LABC that the work is not notifiable, and without an EIC/MEWIC, that is going to be very hard to do.
Do the initial plans indicate that the existing circuits are to be extended rather than new circuits installed?

What is the difference between an EIC/MEWIC and an EICR? It is my understanding that anyone can issue an EICR for work after it has been completed by someone else.

The conversion did not require any plans and thus there was not mention of any electrical work. I would imagine it should be obvious that any garage conversion will require at least some electrical work anyway.

 

[SYKRAPS]

Hi,

Why don't you start a complaint procedure with the NICEIC regarding the sparky that you used stating that no certification has been provided and you doubt the integrity of the work that has been carried out because you can't get a certificate from him for the work he has done?

It is my understanding that if we as NICEIC registered electricians do not comply with regulations (to which certification is included) then the NICEIC will get involved and help rectify the situation, as they at the NICEIC are there to protect the consumer first and foremost.

I will have to check to be 100% sure but I think that it is in the NICEIC's small print that if you (the customer) are not happy with work carried out by a registered electrician and the NICEIC agree then they will insist the electrician in question has to rectify any regulation irregularities at his own expense, and if the electrician will not comply then the NICEIC will instruct another approved electrician to rectify the shortcomings also at the original electricians expense 'or they may be striken off i think'.

Hope this helps.

Regards Nige.

PS The work as explained was not notifiable to LBC and only a minor works cert is required because there was no work in a special location nor any new circuits added

 

[Bradzz]

Sorry im looking at the wrong section will have another look.

 

[Des 56]

What a complicated catch 22 fiasco is this part p claptrap

Get yourself a registered spark.move the sockets a couple of inches,ditto the lighting alteration,have a minor works certificate and hand it over

 

[morph]

this spark could argue the work is not finnished and he does not intend to finish because x,y,z and therefore i would expect it is hard to pin him down, also he may have won the lottery and not give a stuff