Really old memshield 3 phase board. New install.

[cateringENGINEE]

Hi
I have a 3 phase cooker range to install on unbalanced loads 47a / 9a / 9a.
Apparently.... I need to confirm that..
it needs a new supply that is rcd protected.
My problem is the board that it is coming from is a old memshield board 3 phase with all individual bs88 fuse carriers and no main switch isolator.
ive not come across one of these before. Usually it's a new mcb in the board and job done.
looking on the fuse carriers they mostly say 30a which I'm thinking I can't put a 50a fuse in them so would I need a new carrier?
my original idea was to put an ad box mounted to the side of the board and bring tails from the 3 phases neutral and earth through to a 3 phase rcd/mcb set up.

50a bs88 fuses - rcd - mcb - rotary isolator - appliance

i have pictures of the board and fuse carrier but don't know how to put the pics on here..?

any help or guidance would be appreciated.

thanks

 

[telectrix]

Hi
I have a 3 phase cooker range to install on unbalanced loads 47a / 9a / 9a.
Apparently.... I need to confirm that..
it needs a new supply that is rcd protected ,. why the need for RCD? is cable buried in wall <50mm?
My problem is the board that it is coming from is a old memshield board 3 phase with all individual bs88 fuse carriers and no main switch isolator.there will be one. usually below the DB.
ive not come across one of these before. Usually it's a new mcb in the board and job done.
looking on the fuse carriers they mostly say 30a which I'm thinking I can't put a 50a fuse in them so would I need a new carrier. need a pic to see if the fuse carriers will take higher rated fuses.
my original idea was to put an ad box mounted to the side of the board and bring tails from the 3 phases neutral and earth through to a 3 phase rcd/mcb set up. might be the best option. depends on above criteria
50a bs88 fuses - rcd - mcb - rotary isolator - appliance

i have pictures of the board and fuse carrier but don't know how to put the pics on here..? top of reply box, 3rd icon from right. insert image. select from computer and upload. or use photobucket.

any help or guidance would be appreciated.

thanks

comments in red.

 

[D Skelton]

Hi
I have a 3 phase cooker range to install on unbalanced loads 47a / 9a / 9a.
Apparently.... I need to confirm that..
it needs a new supply that is rcd protected.
My problem is the board that it is coming from is a old memshield board 3 phase with all individual bs88 fuse carriers and no main switch isolator.
ive not come across one of these before. Usually it's a new mcb in the board and job done.
looking on the fuse carriers they mostly say 30a which I'm thinking I can't put a 50a fuse in them so would I need a new carrier?
my original idea was to put an ad box mounted to the side of the board and bring tails from the 3 phases neutral and earth through to a 3 phase rcd/mcb set up.

50a bs88 fuses - rcd - mcb - rotary isolator - appliance

i have pictures of the board and fuse carrier but don't know how to put the pics on here..?

any help or guidance would be appreciated.

thanks

As a five week wonder (if you're not familiar with that term it essentially means that the electrical 'qualifications' you hold amount to the sum total of Jack all), at the very best you are considering taking on work here that is way out of your depth. It could easily be argued that by taking on any electrical work whatsoever you would be out of your depth, let alone three phase work in a commercial kitchen. Certain parts of your question demonstrate this quite succinctly.

You want guidance? Get a qualified electrician to carry out this work. Sorry to be blunt but it is quite clear that you don't have a clue.

 

[cateringENGINEE]

thanks

Rcd- manufacture spec to install with rcd

still cant load any pics. i go onto reply and click on insert image and all it comes up with is "add image with url"

at the bottom on post permission it says: you may not post attatchments?

i can email you the board and carrier unless theres another way?

thanks

 

[Leesparkykent]

thanks

Rcd- manufacture spec to install with rcd

still cant load any pics. i go onto reply and click on insert image and all it comes up with is "add image with url"

at the bottom on post permission it says: you may not post attatchments?

i can email you the board and carrier unless theres another way?

thanks

open up a photo bucket account, upload your photos to photo bucket, this will give your photo a URL, get this number and type it in when it comes up with '' Add image with url"

 

[cateringENGINEE]

thanks ive managed to sort it..

[/URL][/IMG]

[/URL][/IMG]

 

[Pete999]

Mate, don;t want to burst your bubble, or take the mick, if I was you I would get someone who knows what they are about to do this work as Mr Skelton said you sound a bit out of your depth.

 

[cateringENGINEE]

As a five week wonder (if you're not familiar with that term it essentially means that the electrical 'qualifications' you hold amount to the sum total of Jack all), at the very best you are considering taking on work here that is way out of your depth. It could easily be argued that by taking on any electrical work whatsoever you would be out of your depth, let alone three phase work in a commercial kitchen. Certain parts of your question demonstrate this quite succinctly.

You want guidance? Get a qualified electrician to carry out this work. Sorry to be blunt but it is quite clear that you don't have a clue.

not quite a 5 week wonder.. but i have been doing it for the last 5 years, unfortunately in that time ive not managed to see every type of set up of the 1900's and need to ask questions from time to time from people that have, hence me raising the question.
ive gone into detail about the proposed setup to give people an idea of what im trying to achieve. if i could of put the picture up in the first place then we wouldnt be here now.
i would rather know then presume.

 

[shanky887614]

50amps per phase thats one big oven?

 

[D Skelton]

50amps per phase thats one big oven?

Exactly my point! The OP hasn't a scooby doo!

 

[shanky887614]

Exactly my point! The OP hasn't a scooby doo!

11.5kw, im guessing thats total load not per phase lol

considering most domestic cookers are under 20A single phase i doubt the op should be doing this job

 

[cateringENGINEE]

there is bigger...

one last week was 55a per phase but this paticular one is unbalanced 47a on one phase and 2 at 9a.

i need to double check that though because that information doesnt sound right.

 

[D Skelton]

not quite a 5 week wonder.. but i have been doing it for the last 5 years, unfortunately in that time ive not managed to see every type of set up of the 1900's and need to ask questions from time to time from people that have, hence me raising the question.
ive gone into detail about the proposed setup to give people an idea of what im trying to achieve. if i could of put the picture up in the first place then we wouldnt be here now.
i would rather know then presume.

I'm not here to argue with you, nor am I here to be disparaging towards you. Evidently however you are way out of your depth. Your lack of knowledge surrounding the existing set up is just the beginning, your design knowledge is poor at best.

You may well have been doing this for five years, that doesn't mean to say you've been doing it correctly for five years!

Seriously, this isn't a personal attack fella. Get someone who is qualified to carry out this work.

 

[cateringENGINEE]

11.5kw, im guessing thats total load not per phase lol

considering most domestic cookers are under 20A single phase i doubt the op should be doing this job

youd be "guessing" wrong then wouldnt you.

 

[cateringENGINEE]

im not here to aruge with anyone, i was just after information on a distribution board that i have come across and a setup i was proposing with an unfamiliar board thats all.. maybe ive gone into too much detail.

 

[D Skelton]

im not here to aruge with anyone, i was just after information on a distribution board that i have come across and a setup i was proposing with an unfamiliar board thats all.. maybe ive gone into too much detail.

Nope, detail is a good thing. It allows us not only to see the level of problem you're facing, bit with your suggested solution it allows us to see your current level of skill. At present it is below the level required of someone messing around with three phase commercial ovens.

You aren't paying attention to the crux of the response.

Get someone qualified to do the job!

 

[cateringENGINEE]

Nope, detail is a good thing. It allows us not only to see the level of problem you're facing, bit with your suggested solution it allows us to see your current level of skill. At present it is below the level required of someone messing around with three phase commercial ovens.

You aren't paying attention to the crux of the response.

Get someone qualified to do the job!

ok firstly you say the op hasnt got a scooby doo because it cant possibly be right that an oven can be 50a per phase when there are plenty out there and and some the are higher per phase. i know, because thats what i do.

whats wrong with what i proposed to do in your opinion?

do you personally have experience with boards like this?

i dont, as in the inprinted writing on the fuse carriers, is that the maximum the carrier can take? the answer is more than likely yes. but there is no carriers with 50 amp on them does that mean that old board set up is not designed to take loads larger than 30a max? i dont know because ive not come across it before.
i could ring eaton memshield up and they could give me information on it, but ive come on here instead to see if anyone could help with some information.

keep saying get someone qualified in isnt answering the questions that im asking is it, weather im to do the job or not.

 

[snowhead]

I used to install those MEM boards.
You can't change the Carriers (pair) for larger ones, their max rating is as identified on the carrier.

If the spec of the oven IS as stated unbalanced, which I doubt, then as is being suggested above you need a lot more thought into the design of the new installation.

.

 

[D Skelton]

ok firstly you say the op hasnt got a scooby doo because it cant possibly be right that an oven can be 50a per phase when there are plenty out there and and some the are higher per phase. i know, because thats what i do.

whats wrong with what i proposed to do in your opinion?

do you personally have experience with boards like this?

i dont, as in the inprinted writing on the fuse carriers, is that the maximum the carrier can take? the answer is more than likely yes. but there is no carriers with 50 amp on them does that mean that old board set up is not designed to take loads larger than 30a max? i dont know because ive not come across it before.
i could ring eaton memshield up and they could give me information on it, but ive come on here instead to see if anyone could help with some information.

keep saying get someone qualified in isnt answering the questions that im asking is it, weather im to do the job or not.

I give up!

As per the wise words of my Jock pal Mr Bannatyne, "I'm out!"

 

[telectrix]

anyone who designs an oven with the loads that far out of balance should take up plumbing. can't see those figures being correct.

 

[Flanders]

Yes you are orrect the ratting on the fuse holder is the maximum size fuse you can put in it, it may be the case that you have to replace the db that is there or fit a seperate switched fuse and rcd , have you checked that the supply can take the additional load?

 

[cateringENGINEE]

I used to install those MEM boards.
You can't change the Carriers (pair) for larger ones, their max rating is as identified on the carrier.

If the spec of the oven IS as stated unbalanced, which I doubt, then as is being suggested above you need a lot more thought into the design of the new installation.

.

thanks for your informative post, that helps. i doubt it is that far out of balance myself but that is the information i got given weather it turns out to be right or not.
either way if the highest rating carrier in that board is a 30a then its a no go.

 

[shanky887614]

thanks for your informative post, that helps. i doubt it is that far out of balance myself but that is the information i got given weather it turns out to be right or not.
either way if the highest rating carrier in that board is a 30a then its a no go.

sounds to me like the figures they gave are for different sections of the oven and not total load per phase etc

 

[telectrix]

first job is to get the correct figures (A/phase) for the oven. only then can you start calculating cable size, fuse sizes, etc.

 

[cateringENGINEE]

yes quite true that will be my first job, i am there on monday i know total load is 64A but been given the information of 47a 9a 9a, im hoping it is false information. not done a load test on the board as of yet just been given all the information. Now i have a better understanding of this board and what my limits are ive got something to work with.

thanks

 

[davesparks]

Right, it's an MEM EXCEL fuseboard, which is still a current product (apart from the colour they still make them identical). The carriers are rated for a max of 30A each if it is a 30A board, this should be on the label fixed to the inside of the door, along with other useful information about the board.

 

[shanky887614]

yes quite true that will be my first job, i am there on monday i know total load is 64A but been given the information of 47a 9a 9a, im hoping it is false information. not done a load test on the board as of yet just been given all the information. Now i have a better understanding of this board and what my limits are ive got something to work with.

thanks

i cant be arsed to help someone like this and i don't want to block them

ill edit stuff out

 

[D Skelton]

it will be 64a spread across tp then.

the 47,9,9 will be a brakedown of the different sections of the appliance not the amount it will draw on each phase.

Why are you still conversing with this guy?!

It was clear from the outset that he didn't have a clue and you're still helping him!

 

[cateringENGINEE]

Why are you still conversing with this guy?!

It was clear from the outset that he didn't have a clue and you're still helping him!

64a equally spread over 3 phases? is that ho it always works?

i already told you from the start i have been "given" the information of the phases, what more can i give you apart from the information ive been given until i can confirm it for myself..
not all three phase appliances are balanced loads. you cant just say oh 63a total that means 21a per phase.
if you got 8 elements 2 running at different wattages to the other 6 split over 3 phases it wont work out equal.
D SKELTON do you have any electrical knowledge because you put about 10 posts on here and not one of them have shown any electrical experience? are you a 5 week wonder as well?

thanks

 

[Flanders]

Here we go tin hat on :tank:

 

[D Skelton]

D SKELTON do you have any electrical knowledge because you put about 10 posts on here and not one of them have shown any electrical experience? are you a 5 week wonder as well?

Ah crap! You got me!

 

[Anthony S]

I don't want to get involved, but Iv'e seen cookers/oven with odd/out of balance ratings over 3 phases.

Was verified with a clamp tester as well.

 

[davesparks]

not all three phase appliances are balanced loads. you cant just say oh 63a total that means 21a per phase.
if you got 8 elements 2 running at different wattages to the other 6 split over 3 phases it wont work out equal.

How much work have you done with 3 phase loads? I'm guessing not a lot! If a 3ph appliance is quoted as requiring a 32A supply for example it needs a 32A 3 ph supply. NOT a total of 32A if you add all the phases up.

No an appliance won't always be balanced but the manufacturer will have taken this in to account when writing the spec for the supply it needs.

Spec'ing a 3ph supply by how many amps each phase needs is in the least a very daft idea!

 

[davesparks]

Ah crap! You got me!

You're secrets out!

 

[shanky887614]

i dont even know why this thread exists.

in 3 steps

1. check appliance for brand
2. check for model on sticker/unit
3. go on there website or call them and they will tell you what is the minimum supply it needs.

why is this so difficult it takes minutes

 

[D Skelton]

i dont even know why this thread exists.

in 3 steps

1. check appliance for brand
2. check for model on sticker/unit
3. go on there website or call them and they will tell you what is the minimum supply it needs.

why is this so difficult it takes minutes

IN ONE STEP!

Get a qualified electrician to do the work!

How many times?!

 

[ipf]

Ah crap! You got me!

:dunce2: say ne more..

 

[Anthony S]

i dont even know why this thread exists.

in 3 steps

1. check appliance for brand
2. check for model on sticker/unit
3. go on there website or call them and they will tell you what is the minimum supply it needs.

why is this so difficult it takes minutes

That's the one

 

[cateringENGINEE]

How much work have you done with 3 phase loads? I'm guessing not a lot! If a 3ph appliance is quoted as requiring a 32A supply for example it needs a 32A 3 ph supply. NOT a total of 32A if you add all the phases up.

No an appliance won't always be balanced but the manufacturer will have taken this in to account when writing the spec for the supply it needs.

Spec'ing a 3ph supply by how many amps each phase needs is in the least a very daft idea!

we've established its 3 phase and also established its total load is 63a.. where did i say it needs to be on a 63a supply because thats what all the phases add up to?
i didnt, i said ive been given this load information which doest look quite right but ill find out monday, but just because it is total load is 63a does not necessarily mean its 21a per phase which some people didnt get but #32 clarified what i was trying to get across.
there will be a data plate on the back which will explain all and also prove the info i got given isnt quite right. so until then its irrelevant, i needed to know about the board mainly which i wasnt familiar with which i got on #26.
the rest i can deal with when i get there..
thanks for the answers, its been amusing.
D Skelton no hard feelings, its all banter. but if you not going to answer any questions then its a waste of time typing.

 

[cateringENGINEE]

That's the one

becasue it was originally about the pictures on page 1

 

[TJ Anderson]

we've established its 3 phase and also established its total load is 63a.. where did i say it needs to be on a 63a supply because thats what all the phases add up to?
i didnt, i said ive been given this load information which doest look quite right but ill find out monday, but just because it is total load is 63a does not necessarily mean its 21a per phase which some people didnt get but #32 clarified what i was trying to get across.
there will be a data plate on the back which will explain all and also prove the info i got given isnt quite right. so until then its irrelevant, i needed to know about the board mainly which i wasnt familiar with which i got on #26.
the rest i can deal with when i get there..
thanks for the answers, its been amusing.
D Skelton no hard feelings, its all banter. but if you not going to answer any questions then its a waste of time typing.

Definitely speak to the manufacturer on this one. There is also load diversity that you can apply to this. See what they suggest for the supply. Once you have ascertained this, take existing phase loadings into account when connecting your unbalanced load to balance it out the best you can.

 

[Anthony S]

becasue it was originally about the pictures on page 1

I'm sure your be fine once you find out the loading across each phase.