shopping centre

[moggy1968]

Hi Gang

I'm off to do a quote for PV on a shopping centre next week.
They want a system as big as they can get, so I guess 50kW
Whats the situation with the EPC on something like this?

 

[SolarCity]

Why stop at 50kWp?

 

[SolarRoofSols]

erm.....expensive if it needs one I would guess!

 

[moggy1968]

Why stop at 50kWp?

my understanding was this is as far as you can go with FiTS, but, as I have never looked at installs this big before any advice welcome!! I thought the lovely Governement had basically put the mockers on large scale projects.

They are wanting to reduce their electricity bills, which are huge but additional money from any FiTS would probably be welcome. I suspect actually 50kW will be a drop in the ocean compared to the size of their bills (about 5%!) I think the guy I spoke to on the phone mentioned bills of £75000 a year.

If I win the contract I'll be looking on here for anyone with experience in this kind of work looking for some consultancy work by the way!!

 

[SolarCity]

If the bills are that high then you definitely want to look at bigger than 50kWp systems if you can find enough space. FITs are paid on all size systems and they are very attractive on larger sites. The beauty of a shopping centre is that the supply should be able to cope with a large system - a G59 application should be pretty straightforward.

Anything over 50kWp is outside of MCS and requires a ROOFIT application - which is also pretty straightforward.

 

[moggy1968]

do you have to negotiate direct with the FiT provider for the level of FiT or is it at a set level if say I can get 150kW on there?

 

[SolarCity]

It's a set level. You can also beat the deadlines by applying for the FIT before the job even starts. Bonus.

 

[SpitfireW'sale]

Be happy to help. The FIT is aplicable over 50kWP. We offer a free design, tech support, material selection etc. service for projects such as this. It's free of charge as well, (assuming you have agreed to use us for supply should you win the work!) If of interest feel free to get in touch.

We can also help put you in contact with experienced install teams for jobs this size who are customers of our, but I'm sure you'll get plenty of offers of help from the forum as well!

Spitfire Projects

 

[Worcester]

FIT pays up to 5MW Above 50kWp it isn't MCS it's the ROO-Fit process as it's more a construction project than an Electrical one, also bear in mind when you get above 50kWp you'll probably have to comply with the CDM processes. We love these projects !

 

[moggy1968]

on these commercial jobs does the customer still pay 5%VAT?

 

[Gavin A]

20% unless they're a charity.

 

[moggy1968]

bummer!! was hoping to make a killing on the VAT!

 

[SolarCity]

It makes the payback calculation interesting - the VAT can be claimed back by the shopping centre but then you have to factor in any tax they will pay on the FITs payments.

 

[Gavin A]

It makes the payback calculation interesting - the VAT can be claimed back by the shopping centre but then you have to factor in any tax they will pay on the FITs payments.

personally, I don't think you either can or should. That's a matter for their accountants, as the amount of tax they'd pay will be based on a whole host of other factors, as it's just lumped in with their overall taxable profits for the year.

 

[SolarCity]

So do you work out payback based on them paying no tax on the FITs?

 

[Gavin A]

yes, but detail it as taxable income.

I believe some or all of the installation can also class as tax deductable capital allowances as well, but really if you start going into this territory without being an accountant / certifed financial advisor you're getting into dodgy territory IMO. All you need to do is give them the overall pretax income, it's then up to them to sort out their actual tax situation and apply it to decide if it's worthwhile for them or not.

 

[SolarRoofSols]

yes, but detail it as taxable income.

I believe some or all of the installation can also class as tax deductable capital allowances as well, but really if you start going into this territory without being an accountant / certifed financial advisor you're getting into dodgy territory IMO. All you need to do is give them the overall pretax income, it's then up to them to sort out their actual tax situation and apply it to decide if it's worthwhile for them or not.

I agree, we had the same discussion about what they do with the fit income as I have seen some projections which assume that all of the income will be put in a bank account or reinvested and these projections added to the overall financial benefit of the system.

Each client knows their own tax situation, they pay an accountant to advise them so give them the facts and let them decide how they deal with the income once it is in their account. To do anything else would be crossing a line into something I wouldn't want to be advising on IMO.

 

[Worcester]

Tax is only payable as coproration tax - don't include it - they will understand, (they will also charge VAT on export - ignore that also) Most comapnies would set up a special vehicle (comapny, trust etc) do own and manage large PV systems - lots of reasons why.
They will want to work out a full discounted cash flow model anyway, either based on NPV or IRR depends upon how ther accountants work - in simple terms don't use the model you do for domestics - give them the key figures and assumptions, their bean counters will know if it is a god idea or not, (if not then their bean counters need sacking ..!)
Biggest probelm you get is with a finite amount of capital other projects with a better IRR may come up, however the advantage of this is that it is 'safe' money - the income is pretty much gauranteed, and most people will want a spread of investments to minimse their exposire and gearing ratios.

 

[snowhead]

Be careful on the time you allow to do the job.

Shopping centres are paranoid beyond belief over H & Safety, check exactly what they will let you do and when and where you can crane or move panels etc to the roof.
Nothing to do with solar, but I did a survey on a Centre near the sea for some Air handling equipment on top of a plantroom situated on the car park.
I had to wear full PPE including hard hat just to stand on the car park and take photos with the general public walking past me.
The hard hat was because of seagulls.

 

[Worcester]

You'll also need a full set of structural calcs done by a consulting firm that has massive liability insurance- (we've done similar jobs) you should budget a fair bit just for that :75:

 

[moggy1968]

it is a worry, the potential for losing serious money is a bit of a concern!!

 

[Gary K]

it is a worry, the potential for losing serious money is a bit of a concern!!

Outweighed by the potential to make some serious money- c'mon ,man or mouse?

 

[moggy1968]

squeek!

nah, I will give it my best shot, it's a great career move to get into this side of things so hopefully long term gain for short term pain.

 

[SolarRoofSols]

I will give it my best shot, it's a great career move to get into this side of things so hopefully long term gain for short term pain.

That's the attitude, it is a massive opportunity - good luck!

 

[Worcester]

Go for it, and cover your behind!

When you do things propoerly, you feel good abut it.

 

[moggy1968]

I feel a but most of the time!!