Socket and switch heights

[oracle]

Going back to original poster, this quote might make you feel more confident,

"The guidance given in Approved Document M applies to all new dwellings. Note that if a dwelling is rewired, there is no requirement to provide the measures described above (refers to heights of switches and socket outlets) providing that upon completion the building is no worse in terms of the level of compliance with the other Parts of Schedule 1 to the Building Regulations".

That was taken from the IET's Electricians Guides to the Building Regulations. Pretty clear cut.

The way I see it is, for an existing dwelling,

1) Don't make it worse. (eg - don't start adding sockets into skirting boards - why would anyone do that?).
2) If a major refurbishment is going on, that is to say that every wall is back to brick and every socket/switch etc and backbox is either new or requires re-locating - with a full scope of re-plastering planned, then it's difficult to justify NOT complying with Part M. (This maybe my personal opinion - but I'm sure I have read that somewhere - just can't find it right now - anyone?)
3) If the locations of the sockets/switches do not comply with Part M, but are otherwise in sensible/safe location (eg not over a draining board/sink and not too close to a floor,worktop, hob etc.), and if minimum disruption to paint and plaster is needed, then you can re-use them without fear of non-compliance.
4) Any new building work such as extensions or loft/garage conversions must comply with Part M (and other building regs).

Hope this helps.

Thank you, that puts it nicely into context.

 

[Octopus]

Thank you, that puts it nicely into context.

But its not correct.

 

[Marcus Vaughan]

My comments in itallic above

Hi Murdoch,
Thanks for commenting - I always appreciate that - and keen to learn.
I have no issue with your disagreement with point 2, as it was just my personal preference.
Point 4 though - I got from The Electricians Guide to the Building Regs;

Page 30 - Section 2.1.2.2 "Building Works"

"Additions or extensions to a building must comply with the Building Regulations. If wiring is carried out in an extension to an existing building, the wiring to the extension must comply not only with Part P but also with all the other appropriate requirements of the Building Regulations."

I know its only a guide, and I'll admit I am struggling to draw the same information out of the Part P document itself, but still fear that if I don't comply with this in extensions the I'll be pulled by the LABC?

 

[Octopus]

Hi Murdoch,
Thanks for commenting - I always appreciate that - and keen to learn.
I have no issue with your disagreement with point 2, as it was just my personal preference.
Point 4 though - I got from The Electricians Guide to the Building Regs;

Page 30 - Section 2.1.2.2 "Building Works"

"Additions or extensions to a building must comply with the Building Regulations. If wiring is carried out in an extension to an existing building, the wiring to the extension must comply not only with Part P but also with all the other appropriate requirements of the Building Regulations."

I know its only a guide, and I'll admit I am struggling to draw the same information out of the Part P document itself, but still fear that if I don't comply with this in extensions the I'll be pulled by the LABC?

But Part M says extensions can be in keeping with existing installations ...............

Just imagine an extension to a 1950's property with the lounge growing by say 3m - sockets touching the skirting board in the old bit and 450mm off the floor at the other end ............. that's just daft.

So as usual the VERY POORLY written regs - YES, DCLG - that's you AGAIN ............... send confusion into the industry.......

 

[Strima]

If I was having an extension done and I employed an electrician who placed the sockets and switches at different heights to the rest of the property he/she would be back to place them at heights matching the rest of the house.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Part M is an attempt to standardise buildings.
The prescribed heights are for where the end user is unknown.
Where the end user is known, such as in a rewire, extension or new build for a client who intends to live in the property, the heights quoted in Part M are superseded by the wishes of the end user.
If the end user wants the heights quoted in Part M, then fine, if they want them higher, or lower, then again fine.

 

[Marcus Vaughan]

But Part M says extensions can be in keeping with existing installations ...............

Just imagine an extension to a 1950's property with the lounge growing by say 3m - sockets touching the skirting board in the old bit and 450mm off the floor at the other end ............. that's just daft.

So as usual the VERY POORLY written regs - YES, DCLG - that's you AGAIN ............... send confusion into the industry.......

Agree with the 'daft'.
Agree with the confusion!

I think I'll have a proper read of Part M.

 

[Marcus Vaughan]

If I was having an extension done and I employed an electrician who placed the sockets and switches at different heights to the rest of the property he/she would be back to place them at heights matching the rest of the house.

Really?
That's interesting.
I agree it would look daft in Murdoch's example - but if it was in a different room and therefore you could not see sockets and switches at different heights at the same time.....

 

[Octopus]

Agree with the 'daft'.
Agree with the confusion!

I think I'll have a proper read of Part M.

Tell me if its crystal clear !!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Strima]

Really?
That's interesting.
I agree it would look daft in Murdoch's example - but if it was in a different room and therefore you could not see sockets and switches at different heights at the same time.....

My house, my opinion. And yes, I would notice.

 

[Marcus Vaughan]

My house, my opinion. And yes, I would notice.

K

 

[Marcus Vaughan]

My house, my opinion. And yes, I would notice.

K

 

[oracle]

The OP question in the beginning was about a complete rewire. Every circuit and CCU will be changed. We are talking about the whole electrical installation changing, not just a few sockets in an extention or alteration. Constitutes a new electrical installation requiring a clean EIC.

 

[oracle]

The OP question in the beginning was about a complete rewire. Every circuit and CCU will be changed. We are talking about the whole electrical installation changing, not just a few sockets in an extention or alteration. Constitutes a new electrical installation requiring a clean EIC.

 

[johnduffell]

Part m is pretty clear.
For a new dwelling that may be visited by persons of reduced mobility ie new build and conversion from non domestic, the heights are prescribed. For an existing, you aren't allowed to be less compliant after than you were before.
For feelings designed for disabled people the requirements are much more strict and given in later chapters
All nothing to do with bs7671 or any other electrical rules or whether the cutout has been changed or moved.
Things that aren't a new dwelling would be a rewire, extension, plastering, loft conversion, extra sockets, etc.

 

[Marcus Vaughan]

But Part M says extensions can be in keeping with existing installations ...............

To be honest I cannot find any words to that effect in Part M?

But I can see that it does say, for limits of application of M4(1) that it does NOT apply to extensions.

So I'll happily concede that you and others are correct about not having to comply.

So the Electricians Guide is incorrect, which is disappointing, seeing as I purchased it to try and get some clarity, rather than be misled.

All this said though, there are still instances where I would recommend to the customer that switches and sockets are between 450mm and 1200mm, but I guess, ultimately, and within reason, they can have them at whatever height they want.

It's good to talk.

 

[Octopus]

To be honest I cannot find any words to that effect in Part M?

But I can see that it does say, for limits of application of M4(1) that it does NOT apply to extensions.

So I'll happily concede that you and others are correct about not having to comply.

So the Electricians Guide is incorrect, which is disappointing, seeing as I purchased it to try and get some clarity, rather than be misled.

All this said though, there are still instances where I would recommend to the customer that switches and sockets are between 450mm and 1200mm, but I guess, ultimately, and within reason, they can have them at whatever height they want.

It's good to talk.

I've not bothered with the latest one - but its disappointing that they can't make sure the basics are summarised correctly - that said its the IET and their track record isn't good IMHO

 

[Octopus]

The OP question in the beginning was about a complete rewire. Every circuit and CCU will be changed. We are talking about the whole electrical installation changing, not just a few sockets in an extention or alteration. Constitutes a new electrical installation requiring a clean EIC.

I've given you a disagree because the EIC would say its an "alteration" - only a new build should really warrant a "new" status

 

[telectrix]

I've given you a disagree because the EIC would say its an "alteration" - only a new build should really warrant a "new" status

but you could argue that if everything after the meter is new, as in a total rewire, then it's a "new installation".

 

[Risteard]

A rewire is a new installation and not an alteration to an existing installation. End of story.