Socket and switch heights

Discuss Socket and switch heights in the Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations area at ElectriciansForums.net

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hi guys

I’m preparing to carry out a rewire myself on a home I have just moved into. It’s a 1930s semi. And looks like it has had a rewire in the past (black and red colours - pvc cable) Id say I’m competent to carry out the work as I am a qualified industrial maintenance electrician however I don’t have relevant domestic quals. I’ve done a lot of reading on regs etc and noticed socket heights and switches need to be of a certain height from the ground. Currently the sockets in the house sit just above the skirting board. As I am carrying out the re wire do the heights need to be adjusted to the new regs or can they be kept the heights they currently are? I will be getting the work tested afterwards and don’t want it to be picked up on after work has already been carried out

Thanks
 
the specified heights apply only to new build to allow for use by disabled persons with limited reach. .you can fit the sockets and switches wherever you want on a rewire. ( bearing in mind that they should be easy to use for you and your family ). the most usual cock-up is Consumer Units fitted in silly places. Personally, I'd not for sockets below 12" from floor level. when you get to my age, you'll see why ( back aching bending).
 
oracle said:
New installation, addition or alterations must be to current standard. Your rewire constitutes a new installation. Good on you for using the Regs.
Click to expand...
to current BS7671. this does not insist on minimun heights, that's a building reg. and as i said in post#2, applies only to new builds.
 
Existing properties can be at what ever height you want ..... but in bedrooms I tend to suggest higher than "existing" to make them easier to use ...
 
How do you differtiate between new properties and new installations? Where your EICR asks the age of the installation do you put Victorian, Tudor, Edwardian etc or, say, 25 years meaning the age of the electrical installation not the age of the property.

So a complete rewire is logically a NEW ELECTRICAL INSTALLATION is it not?
 
Strima said:
A rewire would be an alteration to an existing installation as the supply is already there and has been in use.

I would only call an installation new when a new supply has been installed by the DNO and you're starting from scratch.
Click to expand...

as in:

 
I'm not picking a fight, just trying to make sense of it. Would you describe it as a new installation, addition or alteration? It will need an EIC on completion, which would need stated departures, limitations and possibly risk assessments if complete compliance is not met.

That is my thinking and I welcome clarification if I am wrong.
 
totally wrong. it's not a new build, so part m does not apply.
 
oracle said:
I'm not picking a fight, just trying to make sense of it. Would you describe it as a new installation, addition or alteration? It will need an EIC on completion, which would need stated departures, limitations and possibly risk assessments if complete compliance is not met.

That is my thinking and I welcome clarification if I am wrong.
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On a rewire there should be no departures or limitations.

This is an alteration.

As this is domestic then the only risk assessment you'll need is for overvoltage protection in the 18th edition.

In domestic you would be very hard pushed not to be fully compliant.
 
Going back to original poster, this quote might make you feel more confident,

"The guidance given in Approved Document M applies to all new dwellings. Note that if a dwelling is rewired, there is no requirement to provide the measures described above (refers to heights of switches and socket outlets) providing that upon completion the building is no worse in terms of the level of compliance with the other Parts of Schedule 1 to the Building Regulations".

That was taken from the IET's Electricians Guides to the Building Regulations. Pretty clear cut.

The way I see it is, for an existing dwelling,

1) Don't make it worse. (eg - don't start adding sockets into skirting boards - why would anyone do that?).
2) If a major refurbishment is going on, that is to say that every wall is back to brick and every socket/switch etc and backbox is either new or requires re-locating - with a full scope of re-plastering planned, then it's difficult to justify NOT complying with Part M. (This maybe my personal opinion - but I'm sure I have read that somewhere - just can't find it right now - anyone?)
3) If the locations of the sockets/switches do not comply with Part M, but are otherwise in sensible/safe location (eg not over a draining board/sink and not too close to a floor,worktop, hob etc.), and if minimum disruption to paint and plaster is needed, then you can re-use them without fear of non-compliance.
4) Any new building work such as extensions or loft/garage conversions must comply with Part M (and other building regs).

Hope this helps. :)
 
Marcus Vaughan said:
The way I see it is, for an existing dwelling,

1) Don't make it worse. (eg - don't start adding sockets into skirting boards - why would anyone do that?).

Agree

2) If a major refurbishment is going on, that is to say that every wall is back to brick and every socket/switch etc and back box is either new or requires re-locating - with a full scope of re-plastering planned, then it's difficult to justify NOT complying with Part M. (This maybe my personal opinion - but I'm sure I have read that somewhere - just can't find it right now - anyone?)

Disagree - its not a new build

3) If the locations of the sockets/switches do not comply with Part M, but are otherwise in sensible/safe location (eg not over a draining board/sink and not too close to a floor,worktop, hob etc.), and if minimum disruption to paint and plaster is needed, then you can re-use them without fear of non-compliance.

Common sense applies

4) Any new building work such as extensions or loft/garage conversions must comply with Part M (and other building regs).

Disagree .......................

Hope this helps. :)
Click to expand...

My comments in itallic above
 
Marcus Vaughan said:
Going back to original poster, this quote might make you feel more confident,

"The guidance given in Approved Document M applies to all new dwellings. Note that if a dwelling is rewired, there is no requirement to provide the measures described above (refers to heights of switches and socket outlets) providing that upon completion the building is no worse in terms of the level of compliance with the other Parts of Schedule 1 to the Building Regulations".

That was taken from the IET's Electricians Guides to the Building Regulations. Pretty clear cut.

The way I see it is, for an existing dwelling,

1) Don't make it worse. (eg - don't start adding sockets into skirting boards - why would anyone do that?).
2) If a major refurbishment is going on, that is to say that every wall is back to brick and every socket/switch etc and backbox is either new or requires re-locating - with a full scope of re-plastering planned, then it's difficult to justify NOT complying with Part M. (This maybe my personal opinion - but I'm sure I have read that somewhere - just can't find it right now - anyone?)
3) If the locations of the sockets/switches do not comply with Part M, but are otherwise in sensible/safe location (eg not over a draining board/sink and not too close to a floor,worktop, hob etc.), and if minimum disruption to paint and plaster is needed, then you can re-use them without fear of non-compliance.
4) Any new building work such as extensions or loft/garage conversions must comply with Part M (and other building regs).

Hope this helps. :)
Click to expand...
Thank you, that puts it nicely into context.
 
Murdoch said:
My comments in itallic above
Click to expand...

Hi Murdoch,
Thanks for commenting - I always appreciate that - and keen to learn.
I have no issue with your disagreement with point 2, as it was just my personal preference.
Point 4 though - I got from The Electricians Guide to the Building Regs;

Page 30 - Section 2.1.2.2 "Building Works"

"Additions or extensions to a building must comply with the Building Regulations. If wiring is carried out in an extension to an existing building, the wiring to the extension must comply not only with Part P but also with all the other appropriate requirements of the Building Regulations."

I know its only a guide, and I'll admit I am struggling to draw the same information out of the Part P document itself, but still fear that if I don't comply with this in extensions the I'll be pulled by the LABC?
 
Marcus Vaughan said:
Hi Murdoch,
Thanks for commenting - I always appreciate that - and keen to learn.
I have no issue with your disagreement with point 2, as it was just my personal preference.
Point 4 though - I got from The Electricians Guide to the Building Regs;

Page 30 - Section 2.1.2.2 "Building Works"

"Additions or extensions to a building must comply with the Building Regulations. If wiring is carried out in an extension to an existing building, the wiring to the extension must comply not only with Part P but also with all the other appropriate requirements of the Building Regulations."

I know its only a guide, and I'll admit I am struggling to draw the same information out of the Part P document itself, but still fear that if I don't comply with this in extensions the I'll be pulled by the LABC?
Click to expand...

But Part M says extensions can be in keeping with existing installations ...............

Just imagine an extension to a 1950's property with the lounge growing by say 3m - sockets touching the skirting board in the old bit and 450mm off the floor at the other end ............. that's just daft.

So as usual the VERY POORLY written regs - YES, DCLG - that's you AGAIN ............... send confusion into the industry.......
 
If I was having an extension done and I employed an electrician who placed the sockets and switches at different heights to the rest of the property he/she would be back to place them at heights matching the rest of the house.
 
Part M is an attempt to standardise buildings.
The prescribed heights are for where the end user is unknown.
Where the end user is known, such as in a rewire, extension or new build for a client who intends to live in the property, the heights quoted in Part M are superseded by the wishes of the end user.
If the end user wants the heights quoted in Part M, then fine, if they want them higher, or lower, then again fine.
 
Murdoch said:
But Part M says extensions can be in keeping with existing installations ...............

Just imagine an extension to a 1950's property with the lounge growing by say 3m - sockets touching the skirting board in the old bit and 450mm off the floor at the other end ............. that's just daft.

So as usual the VERY POORLY written regs - YES, DCLG - that's you AGAIN ............... send confusion into the industry.......
Click to expand...

Agree with the 'daft'.
Agree with the confusion!

I think I'll have a proper read of Part M.
 
Strima said:
If I was having an extension done and I employed an electrician who placed the sockets and switches at different heights to the rest of the property he/she would be back to place them at heights matching the rest of the house.
Click to expand...

Really?
That's interesting.
I agree it would look daft in Murdoch's example - but if it was in a different room and therefore you could not see sockets and switches at different heights at the same time.....
 
Marcus Vaughan said:
Really?
That's interesting.
I agree it would look daft in Murdoch's example - but if it was in a different room and therefore you could not see sockets and switches at different heights at the same time.....
Click to expand...
My house, my opinion. And yes, I would notice.
 
The OP question in the beginning was about a complete rewire. Every circuit and CCU will be changed. We are talking about the whole electrical installation changing, not just a few sockets in an extention or alteration. Constitutes a new electrical installation requiring a clean EIC.
 
The OP question in the beginning was about a complete rewire. Every circuit and CCU will be changed. We are talking about the whole electrical installation changing, not just a few sockets in an extention or alteration. Constitutes a new electrical installation requiring a clean EIC.
 
Part m is pretty clear.
For a new dwelling that may be visited by persons of reduced mobility ie new build and conversion from non domestic, the heights are prescribed. For an existing, you aren't allowed to be less compliant after than you were before.
For feelings designed for disabled people the requirements are much more strict and given in later chapters
All nothing to do with bs7671 or any other electrical rules or whether the cutout has been changed or moved.
Things that aren't a new dwelling would be a rewire, extension, plastering, loft conversion, extra sockets, etc.
 
Murdoch said:
But Part M says extensions can be in keeping with existing installations ...............
Click to expand...

To be honest I cannot find any words to that effect in Part M?

But I can see that it does say, for limits of application of M4(1) that it does NOT apply to extensions.

So I'll happily concede that you and others are correct about not having to comply.

So the Electricians Guide is incorrect, which is disappointing, seeing as I purchased it to try and get some clarity, rather than be misled.

All this said though, there are still instances where I would recommend to the customer that switches and sockets are between 450mm and 1200mm, but I guess, ultimately, and within reason, they can have them at whatever height they want.

It's good to talk.:)
 
Marcus Vaughan said:
To be honest I cannot find any words to that effect in Part M?

But I can see that it does say, for limits of application of M4(1) that it does NOT apply to extensions.

So I'll happily concede that you and others are correct about not having to comply.

So the Electricians Guide is incorrect, which is disappointing, seeing as I purchased it to try and get some clarity, rather than be misled.

All this said though, there are still instances where I would recommend to the customer that switches and sockets are between 450mm and 1200mm, but I guess, ultimately, and within reason, they can have them at whatever height they want.

It's good to talk.:)
Click to expand...

I've not bothered with the latest one - but its disappointing that they can't make sure the basics are summarised correctly - that said its the IET and their track record isn't good IMHO
 
oracle said:
The OP question in the beginning was about a complete rewire. Every circuit and CCU will be changed. We are talking about the whole electrical installation changing, not just a few sockets in an extention or alteration. Constitutes a new electrical installation requiring a clean EIC.
Click to expand...

I've given you a disagree because the EIC would say its an "alteration" - only a new build should really warrant a "new" status
 
Murdoch said:
I've given you a disagree because the EIC would say its an "alteration" - only a new build should really warrant a "new" status
Click to expand...
but you could argue that if everything after the meter is new, as in a total rewire, then it's a "new installation".
 
Risteard said:
A rewire is a new installation and not an alteration to an existing installation. End of story.
Click to expand...
Put your hand on your heart and repeat after me "I being the person responsible for the design, construction and inspection and testing of the electrical installation...

....having exercised reasonable care when carrying out (the above) certify that the work that I have been responsible for is to the best of my knowledge and belief in accordance with BS7671 2018, except for the departures, if any, detailed below.

Details of the departures from BS7671 2018 (Regulations 120.3 and 133.5)

The extent of the liability of the signatory is limited to the work described above as the subject of this Certificate."

Amen
 
Part M has a whole raft of requirements for new builds and alterations to existing buildings (all based upon anti-discrimination laws).
The vast majority of them relate to non-domestic properties.

With new build dwellings where the end user is not known, the property has to be designed to accommodate all (to avoid discrimination).
Where the end user is known, their preferences take precedence.

Think of it like this:
If a wheelchair user asked you to rewire a property and asked for all the sockets to be at 9” from the floor, would you refuse and site them at 450mm, as that’s the height recommended for disabled persons?

Edit:
Part M is not part of BS7671.
 
Being a mobility scooter user myself I take your point. Although some of the other people said no limitations or departures, in my previous post I offered both, straight off the front of the EIC.
One of them is shown below.

120.3 This Standard sets out technical requirements to enable electrical installations to conform with the fundamental principles of Chapter 13, as follows: Part 3 Part 4 Part 5 Part 6 Part 7 Assessment of general characteristics Protection for safety Selection and erection of equipment Inspection and testing Special installations or locations.

Any intended DEPARTURE from these Parts requires special consideration by the designer of the installation and shall be RECORDED on the appropriate electrical certification specified in Part 6. The resulting degree of safety of the installation shall be not less than that obtained by compliance with the Regulations.

So the short answer is yes, I can do this, but I must record it as a departure.
 
oracle said:
So the short answer is yes, I can do this, but I must record it as a departure.
Click to expand...
compliance or otherwise with Part M of the statutory building regs is entirely unrelated to compliance with BS7671.
oracle said:
Details of the departures from BS7671 2018
Click to expand...
therefore recording that as a departure would be incorrect, as there is no BS7671 reg that you have not followed.
 
johnduffell said:
compliance or otherwise with Part M of the statutory building regs is entirely unrelated to compliance with BS7671.

therefore recording that as a departure would be incorr88ect, as there is no BS7671 reg that you have not followed.
Click to expand...
I beg to differ, Reg 722.55.101.5 clearly states "The lowest part of any socket outlet shall be placed at a height of 0.5 to 1.5 m from the ground.
NOTE The requirements of the National Building Regulations should be adhered to in respect of socket outlet heights."

So there you have it, it's a departure, one way or another, and must be recorded.
 
oracle said:
I beg to differ, Reg 722.55.101.5 clearly states "The lowest part of any socket outlet shall be placed at a height of 0.5 to 1.5 m from the ground.
NOTE The requirements of the National Building Regulations should be adhered to in respect of socket outlet heights."

So there you have it, it's a departure, one way or another, and must be recorded.
Click to expand...

That’s a section on car charging points so a big disagree
 
The point I was making is he caregorically said that Part M is entirely unrelated to compliance with BS7671 and I am showing him that he is wrong.

Vehicle charging points are defined in the Regs as street furniture. Reg 110 .1.1.
The note in this Reg is a general one referring to the Building Regulations.
 
Maybe I am wrong, but
  1. not sure why car chargers come into it
  2. that note is just pointing out that bs7671 doesn't overrule building regs in general, presumably to prevent confusion where building regs are stricter
  3. you can't have a deviation from building regulations as they are statutory laws
  4. although you do have to comply with part M on any material alteration to the accessories, you would achieve compliance as long as you don't make the situation worse than it was
but if the above four were all otherwise, yes you would be able to put it as a deviation.
 
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