Taking action against a cowboy install...

[DNS1]

I'Ve asked for a fluke 1653b from my parentals for Xmas, I've got about as much of a chance of getting it as the OP has of getting said sparky to come back and label the cu.

Shame, you won't be getting one!

That bloke has as much chance of being allowed back in as I have becoming a ballerina!

 

[Skyba]

All the guy will say is you've obviously been tampering with the circuits as you have carried out your own test on the circuit so you've obviously caused the fault. You know this isn't true but as he's the registered guy and you're not he's the only one of the two of you who should be tampering with the circuit.

 

[DNS1]

All the guy will say is you've obviously been tampering with the circuits as you have carried out your own test on the circuit so you've obviously caused the fault. You know this isn't true but as he's the registered guy and you're not he's the only one of the two of you who should be tampering with the circuit.

If the NIC send an inspector out to check, nothing will hide the lack of stickers, the non-RCD protected cooker circuit, the badly completed forms and the lack of ring continuity...

The fact that I've done minor works (spur on a circuit in a non-special location) won't make a difference will it?

 

[onfire25]

All the guy will say is you've obviously been tampering with the circuits as you have carried out your own test on the circuit so you've obviously caused the fault. You know this isn't true but as he's the registered guy and you're not he's the only one of the two of you who should be tampering with the circuit.

As harsh as that sounds......too true

 

[onfire25]

If the NIC send an inspector out to check, nothing will hide the lack of stickers, the non-RCD protected cooker circuit, the badly completed forms and the lack of ring continuity...

The fact that I've done minor works (spur on a circuit in a non-special location) won't make a difference will it?

Ask the man in the know-how......mr tony cable at the niceic.....mobile....***********......call.....ask him.....explain......scan and email him certs......see what he has to say.......i got this number from him last May directly.

 

[Skyba]

If the NIC send an inspector out to check, nothing will hide the lack of stickers, the non-RCD protected cooker circuit, the badly completed forms and the lack of ring continuity...

The fact that I've done minor works (spur on a circuit in a non-special location) won't make a difference will it?

Not putting stickers on the cu is a small thing which they would just brush aside but the no rcd issue would be more serious but he would still say that you'GE tampered with the circuit, he could just say that the circuit was rcd protected when he left the job but the circuits in the house have been worked on since he left and you could have tampered with his circuits also. As for the test results nobody can really prove what he's done wrong apart from the things he's ticked which he shouldn't have.

This goes along with a discussion I was having on another thread about domestic installer being allowed to work but are they really capable. Not all domestic installers are as silly as this one but if everyone was made to do the full 4 years there would be far less silly things like this happening.

I'm not even qualified yet I'm waiting for my NVQ to be signed off yet I think I have a better grasp of things than this guy but I still don't think I'm ready to go it alone yet.

 

[Skyba]

Ask the man in the know-how......mr tony cable at the niceic.....mobile....***********......call.....ask him.....explain......scan and email him certs......see what he has to say.......i got this number from him last May directly.

Ahh tony and Dave, if you don't know who these are you've not lived, I've spent hours in classrooms listening to Dave's droning lol

 

[onfire25]

Not putting stickers on the cu is a small thing which they would just brush aside but the no rcd issue would be more serious but he would still say that you'GE tampered with the circuit, he could just say that the circuit was rcd protected when he left the job but the circuits in the house have been worked on since he left and you could have tampered with his circuits also. As for the test results nobody can really prove what he's done wrong apart from the things he's ticked which he shouldn't have.

This goes along with a discussion I was having on another thread about domestic installer being allowed to work but are they really capable. Not all domestic installers are as silly as this one but if everyone was made to do the full 4 years there would be far less silly things like this happening.

I'm not even qualified yet I'm waiting for my NVQ to be signed off yet I think I have a better grasp of things than this guy but I still don't think I'm ready to go it alone yet.

circuit 2 ot the test results is the hob.....noted as unprotected......bloke cant deny that one......got his name written all over it!...lol.....in respect of him saying you tampered with circuit.......prove it!......say he cant count and missed the spur if he wants to be like that!......his cert is worth nothing if full of errors!

 

[Skyba]

True, I've not actually looked at his Certs as I'm on my mobile.

 

[onfire25]

As for the test results nobody can really prove what he's done wrong apart from the things he's ticked which he shouldn't have.

Shows lack of care and attention to detail......if he can mess a simple tick form up then is he really competant!

 

[DNS1]

Not all domestic installers are as silly as this one but if everyone was made to do the full 4 years there would be far less silly things like this happening.

I disagree I'm afraid mate.

I'm not an apprenticeship sparks, but I can safely say that no work I do will EVER be as bad as this guys...

He could of course say that I'd tampered with the circuit and disconnected the RCD for the hob etc, but his own certificates back me up!

Add to that the fact that he's quoted a 5 second disconnection time for a lighting circuit, said that the outbuilding distribution is a final, and not done any of the IR tests (got a witness to say that he didn't disconnect any loads during his visit), I think the NIC would be on pretty dodgy ground to side with him! If they do, then it's time to talk to BBC Rogue Traders... (about NIC, not just the installer!)

 

[onfire25]

Might of just tested at 250V dc between p-cpc, n-cpc, p/n-cpc to save hassle of disconnecting lamps etc.....as long as still above 1Mohm is still a pass

 

[Skyba]

I disagree I'm afraid mate.

I'm not an apprenticeship sparks, but I can safely say that no work I do will EVER be as bad as this guys...

He could of course say that I'd tampered with the circuit and disconnected the RCD for the hob etc, but his own certificates back me up!

Add to that the fact that he's quoted a 5 second disconnection time for a lighting circuit, said that the outbuilding distribution is a final, and not done any of the IR tests (got a witness to say that he didn't disconnect any loads during his visit), I think the NIC would be on pretty dodgy ground to side with him! If they do, then it's time to talk to BBC Rogue Traders... (about NIC, not just the installer!)

Like I said not ALL domestic installers are bad but If everyone was made to do it the long way there would be far less people out there doing work like this.

I'm not an apprentice spark but I've still done it the long way, I worked at college alongside the apprentices and found work for myself when I could and have worked as a mate and an improver to gain the experience.

I agree that the bloke is looking pretty poor but it's getting someone to listen that's hard.

I bought a car from Evans halshaw which I later discovered they'd done a massive cover up job and sold me a dangerous car had plenty of evidence including recorded phone calls with them and the guy they bought the car from talking about the damage, due to a loop hole they couldn't be used in court and I was left high and dry and they still had my money.

 

[DNS1]

Might of just tested at 250V dc between p-cpc, n-cpc, p/n-cpc to save hassle of disconnecting lamps etc

Yeah, I wondered that, but he's not mentioned it on the form. Thought it was mandatory if not doing the full 500V test. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[DNS1]

I agree that the bloke is looking pretty poor but it's getting someone to listen that's hard.

Yeah, agree there.

At least in this case the guy was sub-contracted, so we can complain to Wickes as well as the NICEIC.

 

[onfire25]

Yeah, I wondered that, but he's not mentioned it on the form. Thought it was mandatory if not doing the full 500V test. Correct me if I'm wrong.

i personally would of made a note on the cert but hey......just look at the quality of the cert already......would you really expect anything more?!

 

[SYKRAPS]

Went over to my parents place today to do the minor work I mentioned in another thread (fusing and extending a spur to fit a light)

I disconnected the downstairs RFC, connected up the new light and then went to do the initial testing for the circuit.

Bearing in mind that the CU was new a few months ago... I did NOT expect to find no continuity between ends of the ring! I certainly did not expect to find that the installer, in addition to the other issues, has FABRICATED his continuity figures on the certificate!

Also found various other mistakes, would love to see how many you lot find...

View attachment 15542
View attachment 15543

My assessor would pull this test cert to pieces

 

[Amp David]

You've forgot to post a picture of page 1 of his cert,

 

[Phil]

if you upload the cert can you make sure the clients personal details along with the contractors personal information is completely removed please

 

[DNS1]

if you upload the cert can you make sure the clients personal details along with the contractors personal information is completely removed please

Yeah, deliberately didn't upload page 1 for this reason... I'd have liked to name and shame, but thought better of it!

 

[ackbarthestar]

Few things I noticed about their new DB that cause me concern so I'd like another opinion:

- Notices missing from board (no sticker about the non-standard colours, no inspection due sticker, no sticker about testing RCD)
- MCBs labelled incorrectly (house is a little odd in that the 2 RFCs cover each side of the house, rather than upstairs and down, but not labelled as such)
- Both lighting circuits on same RCD
- Hob wired in buried T+E but not protected by RCD at all

No mention of the borrowed neutral between the upstairs and downstairs lighting then ?
Not sure why there is the lack of RCD protection for the hob? must have been in a rush to finish
2 spare ways available so they should have been filled.

Just thought I'd throw in my pennyworth

 

[DNS1]

Just spent a while looking at the numbers on that certificate and I'm getting more and more suspicious of this guys competence...

Pretty much identical R1+R2 values for both lighting circuits, despite one being much longer than the others (3 level house, all upstairs lights on the same "upstairs" mcb, so I'd estimate the circuit is twice as long.

The same can be said for the R1+R2 of the socket circuits (although as I've said, there's no continuity anyway due to a break somewhere, so he has to have fabricated those results)

 

[not clever]

Zs 32.2 ohms for garage submain?

 

[SYKRAPS]

Zs 32.2 ohms for garage submain?

Lol it must be on a spike that is not recorded, protected by an RCD that is not recorded or supplying a submain thats not recorded

 

[DNS1]

Zs 32.2 ohms for garage submain?

Dear oh dear... I didn't notice that one... He's correctly quoted the maximum though!

 

[Spazz]

Just been looking at results:

Shed - how can you have a R1+R2 of that low and a Zs that high?? Hes misplaced the . I think! - He also states a 30mA RCD is installed on the shed - when clearly its not!
Hob - That must be one short run - less than a meter with 0.02ohms for R1+R2
Lights - as said above clearly C6 is longer with more points so how can it be the same value as downstairs??
Cooker - Same situation as hob - very short!

Also Zs and Ze they dont match up - considering Ze is 0.27 how can you have 2 circuits at 0.24 showing a Ze of 0.22 (though calculation) and some over circuits showing a Ze of 0.28 - I know bonding can bring it down and up but not by this amount.

I am wondering has he cooked the results??

Also all IRs - am I not right in saying that a reading of >200 Mohms is normally received from someone testing at 250v DC and not 500v DC??

 

[not clever]

There are so many mistakes.

1. Nature of supply parameters Ze 0.27 ohms................. it's not a measurement required it is what the DNO say or the books figure for the supply type 0.35ohms
2. Primary ocpd 130Ka for a 1361 type 2............... I thought it was 33Ka
3. Installation at origin EEBADS.......................(I would have to ask when this cert was done) should be ADS
4. Garage supply down as a final circuit ..............................surely a distribution circuit(unless it is only supplying one socket)
5. Garage circuit cpc via sheath.....................should be Armour.
6. All circuit disconnection times are wrong apart from the 2x socket circuits.

At this point I gave up.................
As for you lack of ring continuity, did you test at the point where you added your spur & did you test before adding your spur?............might have already been a spur off a spur

EEBADS as you don't know stands for Earthed Equipotential Bonding and Automatic Disconnection of Supply

 

[DNS1]

I was unsure about the Ze... I thought you could use either the DNO value OR you could measure and use that. However, giving it some thought, the measured 0.27ohms actually sounds pretty high considering the DNO substation is less than 20 yards away in this case.

I tested for continuity at the board when I disconnected the ring prior to adding the new spur.

I'm pretty sure I've worked out where the break in the circuit is, I think it's due to some work my dad did years ago (moved socket in a bedroom). Just a DIY job, he's not a sparks. There's no way on earth that continuity was present when the board was installed!

The garage supply is a distribution circuit supplying a 15th edition board. I know it's a dodgy install (connection to the SWA from the house is via a taped up joint, I can only assume it was a bodge from the builders or previous owner! It's on the "to-do" list!) The fact that the guy reconnected it with a 32 ohm Zs and a taped up joint (right behind the CU) is further evidence of his incompetence...

Cheers for the explanation of EEBADS. I'm assuming it's a pre-17th edition term

 

[spark 68]

eebads = 16th ed and possibly prior, I only go back as far as 16th ed

 

[DNS1]

Thanks spark!

I really think there needs to be a course for people doing the 17th which teaches the out-dated terms and regs!

 

[1shortcircuit]

eebads was briefly covered in my 17th edition 5mw course lol

:thumbsup

 

[1shortcircuit]

Thanks spark!

I really think there needs to be a course for people doing the 17th which teaches the out-dated terms and regs!

I think you'll find there is, it's called experience lol

My route in means that my knowledge of previous editions is very limited which is why I do not yet do EICR's. Maybe when a few more additions have been and gone I will?

:thumbsup

 

[spark 68]

I keep the 16th ed amd1 and amd2 books, and the 16th ed OSG, as well as the 17th red book in addition to the current one to aid EICR's, I could really do with a 15th ed book too.

And a couple of the older GN's OSG's

 

[GLENNSPARK]

I'd be asking firstly for details of their CPS provider to check on whether they're registered. Then I'd be asking about why they felt the need to replace a 16th CU that could quite easily (I assume) had an RCBO fitted, then the stickers, then the testing etc etc. I'd then invite them to come back and test properly and certify and if they don't it's over to Dom Littlewood with them.

well as much as i dont like this kind of goin on.....
Dominic Littlewood Trev?
last thing we need is that little goblin`s fires stoking...

 

[Elmer BeFuddled]

If no ones hurt or dead your complaint will likely fall on deaf ears
take up your questions and concerns with the installer first and see what he has to say for himself

Sounds like just another case of an inexperienced sparky thinking hes doing the right thing with a little bit of knowledge

Probably not intentionally trying to rip you off but he's only seen a 17th edition board in the wooden bay at the college he was working in the week before he was doing your kitchen! Lol

I find that quite offensive matey. Not all of us Electrical Trainee as you like to call us (although I'm a 6 month wonder) are as thick as we are made out to be!!! At least we work to the latest regs.
(As Thom Dolby sang "At the tender age of 3 I was hooked to a machine just to keep my mouth from spouting junk.") Well, At my tender age of 4 I was soldering copper pipes together.

 

[DNS1]

I think you'll find there is, it's called experience lol

Very true mate.

Guess we're all going to come across stuff we've not seen before at some point, that's where this awesome forum comes in! I've probably learnt chatting on here over the past year than I would ever have learnt at college!

 

[spark 68]

Elmer don't take it to heart mate, there are good and bad in all walks of life, there are good and bad 'short course trained' people, just as there are good and bad T/S people.

 

[Elmer BeFuddled]

I may have spoke out of turn. This usually happens when I go on the Morgans spiced rum!!

Moral: Stay off the Morgans!

 

[Skyba]

Thanks spark!

I really think there needs to be a course for people doing the 17th which teaches the out-dated terms and regs!

There is, it used to be called 2330 lvl 2&3 alongside working with experienced sparks who you can ask questions lol.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Is THAT what it says?! I couldn't read the writing at all? Excuse me for being naive, but what does it mean?!

As I understand from a quick google search, it's a pre-17th edition term. Is reference method "3" a pre-17th edition thing as well?! 5 second disconnection for 6A finals?

NO ITS NOT `PRE 17TH EDITION`..!!!
eebads still exists 411.1

 

[not clever]

The garage supply is a distribution circuit supplying a 15th edition board.

So the submain should have gone on the rcd, not ideal but safer than it is at the moment.
​

 

[DNS1]

So the submain should have gone on the rcd, not ideal but safer than it is at the moment.
​

I didn't think it had to as it's wired in SWA. Once it gets to the garage DB it's effectively just an older install which should be improved, but complies with the regs isn't it? If I'm wrong please correct me!

 

[trev]

Has anyone actually had a conversation with the installer since he left your parent's house? I'd say it was quite important to ascertain straight from him the reasons why he did what he did. He may have had a great deal of pressure in his personal life and simply screwed up, I know that's no excuse but if asked about things he could well volunteer to come over and sort things out.
Further, I read you comment about the family not always seeing the best in their own. If one of my family got another spark in to their home and it went wrong I'd be sorely tempted to tell them to shove their problems, I wouldn't but I'd be sorely tempted and would make my opinions known.

 

[Skyba]

Has anyone actually had a conversation with the installer since he left your parent's house? I'd say it was quite important to ascertain straight from him the reasons why he did what he did. He may have had a great deal of pressure in his personal life and simply screwed up, I know that's no excuse but if asked about things he could well volunteer to come over and sort things out.
Further, I read you comment about the family not always seeing the best in their own. If one of my family got another spark in to their home and it went wrong I'd be sorely tempted to tell them to shove their problems, I wouldn't but I'd be sorely tempted and would make my opinions known.

I'd be very tempted also, the only person who has done this is my older brother, he's 8 years my senior and see's me as a 28 year old child for some reason. He wanted his cu changing from an old re-wirable to a 17th edition, I asked him to get the tester from his work when I was next in Cornwall and he seemed rather sheepish about it.
In the end he didn't bother, I wasn't worried I was having a weekend away and didn't fancy working anyway, I got chatting to him about a guy he works with who does bits and bobs of electrical work and has his 17th edition, anyway he's advised my brother badly on some variations on his kitchen ring to the point he has sockets that don't work, after chatting to him for a while and telling him what was wrong etc i quickly discovered that he has more faith in a chancer from work than me, so next time he cocks up and asks me how to do anything he'll get a little giggle followed by a ummmmmmm NO.

 

[nickblake]

Doesnt matter how bad it is no body will do anything ive seen inspections that are satisfactory and ive found 35 deviation including 11 C1's mention this and your told what are we suposed to do about it , the only time something will be done is when some one dies you can scream and shout all you like wont make the slightest bit of differance the only way some thing may and i say may get done is if the house holder takes action and reports them to trading standards , one example is an install ive recently taken over old manor turned into flats all bodged five meters on diffeant phases no covers on the meters , polarity reversed and guess what when the customer rang there trade body they didnt want to know still ive got the pics so she may well take action

 

[ackbarthestar]

NO ITS NOT `PRE 17TH EDITION`..!!!
eebads still exists 411.1

Its probably more like ADS 411.1 with a bit of EEB 411.3. Don't you think?

 

[DNS1]

Has anyone actually had a conversation with the installer since he left your parent's house? I'd say it was quite important to ascertain straight from him the reasons why he did what he did. He may have had a great deal of pressure in his personal life and simply screwed up, I know that's no excuse but if asked about things he could well volunteer to come over and sort things out.

To be honest, there is no way I'd be letting the installer anywhere near the house again.

Making a mistake is one thing (eg the wrong disconnection times on the cert, forgetting to label the DB, not realising the hob needed to be RCD'd etc), but this guy has clearly MADE UP his R1+R2 values for an RFC! He knowingly left my folks with a circuit on an inappropriate mcb and falsified his figures!

As melodramatic (and unlikely) as it sounds, that could have led to the circuit being overloaded, the copper heating up and a nice big fire...

All of us, whether 30 year apprenticeship sparks, or newly qualified installers know that dodgy electrics can kill. Making mistakes is excusable, doing things wrong and lying about it is NOT!

As I said before, there is no way that installer will be working on my family's house again!

 

[trev]

Well in that case, contact the CPS operator he claims to be a member of and LABC/Trading Standards but be prepared for them to do exactly nothing.