What can you do with 2330 Level 2?

[jones.emyr]

Hi all, first post so please be gentle.
I`m currently studying with OLCI construction. I chose the 'become an electrician' course, and they threw on a few extras eg Part P, Pat testing,17th Regs and Solar panels. Marvellous. I`ll have finished my level 2 at the end of November, and have been wondering what can i do once I have this qualification. I`ve tried all the local Electricians, but because I`m 34 and they legally cant pay me apprentice wages, they say they cant take me on. Harsh.
Is it possible to start up your own buisness, with a level 2 qualification, as you study for your level 3? I was thinking along the lines of non-notifiable jobs to begin with, but a family friend, although retired is still NICEIC approved and does a bit of work here and there, so once confidence grows, he could sign off work until I can do it myself. Would I be allowed to do this though is my main question.
I`m not trying to get ahead of myself or anything, but if i am unable to find work when i get my Level 2, I`ll have to do something.
Any advice would be greatfully received. Cheers.

 

[WayneL]

Hi all, first post so please be gentle.
I`m currently studying with OLCI construction. I chose the 'become an electrician' course, and they threw on a few extras eg Part P, Pat testing,17th Regs and Solar panels. Marvellous. I`ll have finished my level 2 at the end of November, and have been wondering what can i do once I have this qualification. I`ve tried all the local Electricians, but because I`m 34 and they legally cant pay me apprentice wages, they say they cant take me on. Harsh.
Is it possible to start up your own buisness, with a level 2 qualification, as you study for your level 3?

It's competence that matters, not paper qualification.
Do you feel you know enough to be working on peoples properties, I & T ing your work and signing to say that it is safe and fit for purpose??

I was thinking along the lines of non-notifiable jobs to begin with, but a family friend, although retired is still NICEIC approved and does a bit of work here and there, so once confidence grows, he could sign off work until I can do it myself. Would I be allowed to do this though is my main question.

If he is prepared to tell lies on an EIC and sign his name to it, more fool him.
This is, of course, illegal.



I`m not trying to get ahead of myself or anything, but if i am unable to find work when i get my Level 2, I`ll have to do something.

There are hundreds of trainee sparks countrywide in the same boat.

The best thing you could do is volunteer yourself to work (for nothing if need be) in order to gain the experience you are going to require.

Any advice would be greatfully received. Cheers.

There are a lot of things that you don't know yet and, granted, you could always ask. - But the real frightening thing is the stuff that you don't know you don't know.........how will you know to ask??


Might be harsh comments - but reality

 

[jones.emyr]

If he is prepared to tell lies on an EIC and sign his name to it, more fool him.
This is, of course, illegal.

I didn`t know this. I just thought if he tested the installation, that was ok. I didn`t know he had to do the work as well. See, I`m learning already.
Whilst your comments are harsh, it`s nothing as harsh as the grim reality of being on the dole. (who incidentally forbid you working for free and claiming).
Cheers though.

 

[WayneL]

Hi mate,

Yeh, when you sign an EIC you are signing to say you are responsible for the Design, Construction and Inspection & Testing of the installation. (On the 'simple' sheet)

FOR DESIGN, CONSTRUCTION, INSPECTION & TESTING
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]I being the person responsible for the Design, Construction, Inspection & Testing of the electrical installation (as indicated by my signature below), particulars of which are described above, having exercised reasonable skill and care when carrying out the Design, Construction, Inspection & Testing, hereby CERTIFY that the said work for which I have been responsible is to the best of my knowledge and belief in accordance with BS 7671:2008 amended to .......... (date) except for the departures, if any, detailed as follows [/FONT][/FONT]​

They do a 'three part' EIC which has seperate sections for each - but you have to be 'competent' to sign that you are responsible for any of them.

 

[jones.emyr]

Cheers WayneL.
I`m sure all this will become clearer in time. I think I`ll keep on at local Electricians to give me a job. Failing that though I dont know what I`ll do.

 

[sye77]

Hi all, just done my level 2 2330, 17th edition, pat testing and will be starting my work based nvq level 3 next week. Do i need to do my level 3 2330 as well or is it covered in my nvq. If not can they be studdied together when im at college one day a week?
cheers,
sye

 

[jones.emyr]

Hi sye77.
Have you managed to find an employer to take you on? I didnt know you could do pat testing and 17th edition before doing your level 3, so that`s good to know. I`m not sure what`s going on really with lots of talk about the nvq changing. I`ll have to ask my instructor next week.

 

[ringer]

It is not illegal for someone else to sign off your work. They have to take responsibility for the design construction and testing, but it is up to them to satisfy themselves the work is up to scratch. How do you think all these firms manage to sign off work where the supervisor will be authorised to test and inspect, but the actual construction will be done by apprentices/unqualified assistants? If your relative oversees your work to an extent that satisfies himself, he can then sign off your work.

 

[WayneL]

It is not illegal for someone else to sign off your work. They have to take responsibility for the design construction and testing, but it is up to them to satisfy themselves the work is up to scratch. How do you think all these firms manage to sign off work where the supervisor will be authorised to test and inspect, but the actual construction will be done by apprentices/unqualified assistants? If your relative oversees your work to an extent that satisfies himself, he can then sign off your work.

Hi Ringer,

I didn't say it was illegal to sign off someone elses work.

What is illegal, though, is to sign saying that you are responsible for the Design, Construction and I & T of the installation, when you haven't been - and certifying that it complies, when you have no idea whether it does or it doesn't.......this would amount to Fraud.

The ops description of his 'family friend' signing off his work for him seemed to fit this category.

 

[ringer]

I think fraud is too strong a word to use in this situation. You can take responsibility for an installation without doing the work yourself - but you first need to satisfy yourself that the design and construction were carried out correctly. This can be established by asking pertinent questions, asking to see design calculations, and performing inspection and test to satisfy yourself that it has been done correctly before you accept responsibility for the work carried out by A.N.Other.
Of course, it all depends in this particular instance on how much the relative takes the work on trust, and how much inspection and test he does. Even then, I doubt fraud charges would be appropriate. Negligence perhaps, but not fraud.

 

[WayneL]

I think fraud is too strong a word to use in this situation. You can take responsibility for an installation without doing the work yourself - but you first need to satisfy yourself that the design and construction were carried out correctly. This can be established by asking pertinent questions, asking to see design calculations, and performing inspection and test to satisfy yourself that it has been done correctly before you accept responsibility for the work carried out by A.N.Other.
Of course, it all depends in this particular instance on how much the relative takes the work on trust, and how much inspection and test he does. Even then, I doubt fraud charges would be appropriate. Negligence perhaps, but not fraud.

Depends how big the fire was and how many people died, I suppose.

You are negligent if you wire a socket the wrong way around.
You sign something knowing it not to be true, that's fraud.

I wouldn't sign for someone elses work unless I had seen the design spec, calcs etc, made numerous visits whilst the job was in progress - to confirm cable runs etc., and then full I & T of the installation myself - not relying on any of their results.

You see, the problem with doing this is that we are told the 'Initial Verification' starts from the minute you start the installation.....so in other words you are inspecting and testing as you go along - e.g. R1 + R2 before earth fly leads or other parallel paths are introduced, stuff like that.
My point is that it's an on going process, so I don't see how someone can pop along at the end and sign a job off as compliant and safe.

 

[telectrix]

a few years ago, i worked cards in for a NICEIC Company. One job was a complete install in an infants' school. all in T/E, basket above false ceiling, pvc tube and surface Socket Outlets. Fluorescent lighting, Cooker Point. I installed the whole job. The Company's Test Engineer came and did EIC. He was there for only 2 hours, and the Company instructed me to remove the RCBO which I had fitted for the cooker circuit and replace with MCB, it's cheaper, they told me. ( Job was to 16th, RCBOs on socket outlets only.)

 

[jones.emyr]

I saw one 'form' which had designer, installer and tester sections. They could be the same person, or different for all three. I`ll have to have a look at that. I`m sure once i`ve finished my course, I`ll be able to design and construct most of, if not all domestic requirements, with only the final testing needed. With sound evidence of planning and construction, and the megger hitting all the right numbers during testing, I`d be happy to sign off the work if i could. If my 'family friend' is happy that all is in order, its ok for him to sign it off?
Hope so.

 

[Jimmy Boy]

It's clearly neither illegal or fraudulent to ask someone to sign off work, providing the person signing off is competent to sign off to BS7671 and they actually carry out ALL the requirements of the regs, this is what the LABC do for domestics, however I do believe it is clearly unlawful for someone who is registered to sign off under a domestic installer scheme to do this for work they haven't designed, installed and tested..as always I am happy to be corrected

 

[Paul.M]

Brb page 331 states there can be three different people for an installation. In each area the person must be competent. Design. Installation. Inspecting and testing. So yes you can design and install if you have the qualifications and experience that would deem you as a "competent" person. You can sign them two sections of the cert and your family friend can sign the I & T. This way if anything goes wrong both of you will be questioned. I've had the same problem and my work was tested by my old boss that I worked for a few years and he knows me and my work inside out and anything he was not happy with I changed and then he would test the entire installation before putting his name on a legal binding document. By careful what you do and please aways be professional. Look at brb page 331 i, iv, v and ix. You say you have your 2330 level 2 and 17th ed, without sounding harsh you should know what you can and can't do without the gray area of "competent person" just from what you've already been taught. Many people that have past the 17th on this forum still ask questions that are in the brb, please read it now and again. It's not just a book to pass an exam, its the bible for electricians. Ok rant over, it wasn't directed at you.

 

[Paul.M]

however I do believe it is clearly unlawful for someone who is registered to sign off under a domestic installer scheme to do this for work they haven't designed, installed and tested..as always I am happy to be corrected

Correct, in this case where a family friend is testing he/she has to be qualified (bs2391) and full scope part p. But I'm sure in-between them both they will be ok. I wonder if either of them have PLI just incase?

 

[sye77]

hi, yes i finaly found a employer but its taken a long time, i had to meet the training college for them to check that i was going to be ok doing the 17th and pat testing but they were more than happy for me to do it. I have now been told that the 2330 level 3 will be included in the NVQ. Thanks for the reply,
Sye

 

[jones.emyr]

So, all in all, some quite contradicting views.
My 'family friend' is a full on jib card holding niceic registered stickler. lol
He`s very thorough, and as it should be, safety is paramount.
However, I wont be trying to pull the wool over his eyes, taking short cut after short cut. I`ll be wanting to do everything right, so that any work I do conforms to regulations. I`m not getting into this trade to be a cowboy. I want to do things right. I dont want people to burn as they sleep, due to me winging a job and getting it signed off using lies and misdirection.
In time, i`ll do my Part P, 17th regs, nvq and 2391, but it will take time, however the pennies need to still keep coming in, so if I can legally put my new skills to use, that would be great.
If I can find an employer to take me on, then all of this debate would be for nothing, but if i cant, then I`ll have to do something.
Me head hurts!!