When does a domestic property need a rewire ???

[Dozer 73]

see a lot of different threads on here , where people asking for advice on old installations , one tonight even about moving sockets installed in the70’s in metal conduit and 2 core cable
It’s a funny game where not every one thinks the same , know wiring lasts a long time but the accessories get worn , make bad connections to plugs , lamps , switches etc
Personally I’m quite quick to advice a rewire , not for my personal gain tbh
Just wanted to know at what point other people advice a rewire

 

[buzzlightyear]

perhaps two millions heads are better then one!

 

[Leesparkykent]

see a lot of different threads on here , where people asking for advice on old installations , one tonight even about moving sockets installed in the70’s in metal conduit and 2 core cable
It’s a funny game where not every one thinks the same , know wiring lasts a long time but the accessories get worn , make bad connections to plugs , lamps , switches etc
Personally I’m quite quick to advice a rewire , not for my personal gain tbh
Just wanted to know at what point other people advice a rewire

When remedial work will cost near on the same amount, when remedial work will cause as much disruption as a rewire, when they are fully refurbing a property , changing layouts and adding multiple extensions, when wired in TRS etc

 

[westward10]

I think some people are too quick to jump on the rewire/replace the dist board bandwagon because they are not confident in giving an assessment as to whether it is safe for continued use and feel the best option is to start again. I have carried out countless Periodics some with multiple issues most of which can be rectified. Obviously wiring systems past their reasonable service life are not rectifiable without replacement.

 

[Octopus]

When the property is empty and the test results demonstrate the need.

 

[westward10]

What test results will justify a rewire.

 

[Dozer 73]

I certainly don’t agree with the change the DB method , think a lot of general public think this is an instant fix / upgrade

 

[Dozer 73]

Sometimes a test doesn’t. Always give you a true picture of what’s hidden on the installation
I’ve uncovered some horrendous stuff on rewire’s that could of easily caused a fire but missed a test

 

[Dozer 73]

see a lot of different threads on here , where people asking for advice on old installations , one tonight even about moving sockets installed in the70’s in metal conduit and 2 core cable
It’s a funny game where not every one thinks the same , know wiring lasts a long time but the accessories get worn , make bad connections to plugs , lamps , switches etc
Personally I’m quite quick to advice a rewire , not for my personal gain tbh
Just wanted to know at what point other people advice a rewire

Not looking for advice here just thought I’d start an interesting chat

 

[ipf]

I certainly don’t agree with the change the DB method , think a lot of general public think this is an instant fix / upgrade

May not be an instant fix but, in most cases. it certainly is an upgrade.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

I certainly don’t agree with the change the DB method , think a lot of general public think this is an instant fix / upgrade

It can be an upgrade, I'd rather see an installation well past the first flush of youth protected by decent modern circuit and additional protection than rewirables. Not suggesting for a moment rewirables are unsafe, just modern circuit protection is an upgrade.
edit...ipf types quicker!

 

[Midwest]

I'd suggest rewire same as tyres wear out on a car, not in the same time scale, but nothing lasts forever. Went to a property the other day, to quote for kitchen refurb'. No cpc in lighting circuits amongst other things. They had a 'visual' check done on the electrics before moving in 6mths ago, customer still not convinced about spending money on upgrading electrics, but want to spend money on new kitchen.

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

I'd suggest rewire same as tyres wear out on a car, not in the same time scale, but nothing lasts forever. Went to a property the other day, to quote for kitchen refurb'. No cpc in lighting circuits amongst other things. They had a 'visual' check done on the electrics before moving in 6mths ago, customer still not convinced about spending money on upgrading electrics, but want to spend money on new kitchen.

Thats a very common thing, they can't see the wiring so its out of sight out of mind where as they can see the kitchen and feel they are getting something for the money...

 

[Dozer 73]

Personally think now Rewire , new heating system certainly helps sell a house and also keep price up near asking price as these two thing hold a lot of bargaining power
So not just for safety reasons fire/shock you would have a rewire but it can also be considered a bit of an investment in the property

 

[KEV 1 N]

I usually find that if the old installation has not been "tampered" with, then it's generally fine, providing it was installed correctly in the first place, but once Mr DIY has had a go at it, spurring off here there and everywhere, borrowing neutrals.....then its time to start again.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

What test results will justify a rewire.

That's a good point. Most poor results whether they are IR results, continuity etc result in fault finding as they are generally only on one or 2 circuits. I guess if there were poor results on all circuits then you could justify a rewire. I rarely advise a rewire or indeed a CU change, unless the conditions are as in Lee's post above.

 

[The Ghost]

I am absolutely for if it aint broke don't fix it. I take something of a pride in fixing older systems so that they pass tests and meet regs. However as @Leesparkykent says when the cost of fixing is near to the cost of re-wire I quote for both and usually the customer will see the sense in having a re-wire.

 

[sparkdog]

Usually if its old rubber cable which has deteriorated or lots of the dreaded green goo in PVC cable.Or sometimes just a partial rewire if its a mixture of cables. If there is mice damage which I find a lot I would go for a consumer unit replacement after repair if its got no RCDs so it has some protection. Got one to look at on Frid, the customer shoved a Brillo pad down a mouse hole and it went bang and ignited ( the pad not the mouse.)

 

[ipf]

Usually if its old rubber cable which has deteriorated or lots of the dreaded green goo in PVC cable.Or sometimes just a partial rewire if its a mixture of cables. If there is mice damage which I find a lot I would go for a consumer unit replacement after repair if its got no RCDs so it has some protection. Got one to look at on Frid, the customer shoved a Brillo pad down a mouse hole and it went bang and ignited ( the pad not the mouse.)

Hang on......don't give 'em more reason for upping the 18th......isolate before inspection of mouse holes....

 

[dmxtothemax]

Personally I am not a fan of the" cause it's old, it's dangerous club ".
This smacks of taking advantage of customers insecurities.
I have seen plenty of old instalations that were installed to a very good stantard.
Therefore they are still working well today. It comes down to the results of talking with the customer ( what are their concerns ), the results of a visual inspection, What current safety standards reccomend, and the results of some good old fashioned testing.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

A substantial proportion of the board changes I do are on installations with imperial stranded pvc cables. As has already been stated provided it hasn't been subjected to DIY or kitchen fitters it's usually fine for continued service.
Another point for home buyers to be aware of is that a 'rewire' isn't always a rewire. It's surprising how often a few repairs and upgrades to an old installation suddenly becomes...'it's all been rewired' when the house is up for sale.

 

[Midwest]

Just because the test results are fine, and inspection of a sample of accessories suggest the same, doesn't reveal the condition of cabling etc under floors. Manufacturers typically guarantee their cables 20-30 years, subtract the abuse handed out by diy'ers, pretty much lines up 1970's properties for a rewire. I know in reality, most would opt for a shiny new CU, utilising manky old imperial cables, but I wouldn't. But then its easy for me to say being a sparks, but not so for others.

If I moved into an older property, where the central heating was upgraded, with new bathroom & kitchen, I'd consider putting aside some money to upgrade the electrics. Which is exactly what I advised my customer, the other week, with no cpc's in the lighting circuits. I don't do EICR's, but that's my personnel opinion.

 

[Andy78]

When the property has been owned by a builder for ten years .....

Been to a couple of those patchwork bodge ups lately ...

 

[kingeri]

The job I've just finished, one socket circuit on a 4mm radial for the whole house, tested fine but only 4 double sockets on it! One in living room, two in kitchen and one in a bedroom. Two bedrooms with no socket outlets at all. One lighting circuit, basic as it comes, lots of darkness in that house. I suppose it was a rewire, but felt more like doing a new build! Not a lot to rip out, but a lot of new stuff going in, should have seen the old dears face when she could actually plug stuff in wherever she liked and could ditch the extension leads for good, she was like a little kid on Christmas morning!

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Just because the test results are fine, and inspection of a sample of accessories suggest the same, doesn't reveal the condition of cabling etc under floors. Manufacturers typically guarantee their cables 20-30 years, subtract the abuse handed out by diy'ers, pretty much lines up 1970's properties for a rewire. I know in reality, most would opt for a shiny new CU, utilising manky old imperial cables, but I wouldn't. But then its easy for me to say being a sparks, but not so for others.

If I moved into an older property, where the central heating was upgraded, with new bathroom & kitchen, I'd consider putting aside some money to upgrade the electrics. Which is exactly what I advised my customer, the other week, with no cpc's in the lighting circuits. I don't do EICR's, but that's my personnel opinion.

I'd have to disagree on the point about 1970's cables being past it. In my experience properly installed quality PVC cables are good for a great deal longer than 20-30 years. Other things excepted, I would not advise a rewire purely on the age of PVC cables.

 

[Midwest]

A friend of mine moved into a property, after obtaining i

I'd have to disagree on the point about 1970's cables being past it. In my experience properly installed quality PVC cables are good for a great deal longer than 20-30 years. Other things excepted, I would not advise a rewire purely on the age of PVC cables.

Well I have to disagree with you. I predate 1970's, and her indoors thinks I'm well past it. In fact she reckons I've only got twenty years left

 

[Dozer 73]

Agreed pvc copper has a very long life , new dB with rcd massive improvement for shock/fire protection , wired smoke alarms yet another improvement
I wonder why all local councils don’t just do upgrades instead of doing full rewires when not really needed , with massive costs of plastering , decorating vouchers , big overheads of contractors ?

 

[KEV 1 N]

I wonder why all local councils don’t just do upgrades instead of doing full rewires when not really needed , with massive costs of plastering , decorating vouchers , big overheads of contractors ?

When I did my house bashing stint many years ago, I often wondered why is this coming out? I sometimes think we ripped out a better installation than the one we put in! And the damage created to rewire a house in a day was unreal....I used to hate it!

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Well I have to disagree with you. I predate 1970's, and her indoors thinks I'm well past it. In fact she reckons I've only got twenty years left

Never mind what the painted one thinks, I predate 1970's and I bloody know I'm well past it, I don't need her reminding me

 

[PEG]

I assumed everybody knew,a full rewire is needed,somewhere between,the Fire Brigade leaving,and the plasterer arriving...tell me i'm wrong?

 

[John Guy]

This is an interesting read. It's been suggested that I rewire my property. The original part of the property is old colour wires on a not at all modern CU. I was under the impression that old colour wires were fine as long as old colour wires were used for any additional sockets i.e. not mixing and matching
I was sold on the idea/fear after hearing my property has no earth.
Now, how does this fit in with the discussion? Apart from don't touch anything metal and connected to electricity...

 

[John Guy]

P.S. if I'm hijacking the thread, tell me, I've got thick skin!

 

[telectrix]

This is an interesting read. It's been suggested that I rewire my property. The original part of the property is old colour wires on a not at all modern CU. I was under the impression that old colour wires were fine as long as old colour wires were used for any additional sockets i.e. not mixing and matching
I was sold on the idea/fear after hearing my property has no earth.
Now, how does this fit in with the discussion? Apart from don't touch anything metal and connected to electricity...

it's perfectly fine to mix old and new colour cables. in fact, we're not allowed to use red/black anymore. a sticker is placed on the CU indicating 2 versions of colours used.

the only way to determine if a rewire is needed is to get the installation inspected and tested. you would then receive a consition report (EICR) with recommendations for any improvements required.

 

[John Guy]

I'm getting the report done Wednesday. I'll, erm, report back

 

[John Guy]

Here's the report, which doesn't look that bad...
There's some stuff that obviously needs doing, but I'm not so sure on a rewire now
P1

P2

P3

P4

P5

P6

 

[Andy78]

Most of those codes I would take issue with. Also they have recorded no main earth yet recorded Zs values for each circuit. Something is a bit odd there.

 

[KEV 1 N]

Also, the type of system has not being ticked.

 

[plugsandsparks]

The readings for ZS are high though. Photo of service head might give a clue to system type or he didn't know what it was supposed to be. Pretty impressive though to have no earth or bonding.... wonder what happened to it..

 

[Dozer 73]

Mmm some thing doesn’t add up there with the earths and loop readings , also ins res to earth
Some of his comments are hard to make out , writing should be a bit clearer
I’d also guess installation older than 25 years , but it is a rough estimation

 

[Dozer 73]

Also no ring results on sockets but wired in 2.5 t and e on 30A fuse

 

[Dozer 73]

Personally looks like a rewire to me , safety , investment , that’s my personal opinion
But hey it could also have a few improvements and be fine for years to come , that’s why I started this thread
Perfect example for the thread

 

[Octopus]

Here's the report, which doesn't look that bad...
There's some stuff that obviously needs doing, but I'm not so sure on a rewire now
P1

P2

P3

P4

P5

P6

You should seek a 2nd opinion regarding those codes ...

How big is the home and how long was the "inspector" in it?

 

[Andy78]

He's in my neck of the woods. I would not be surprised at a lack of earthing conductor. Most service heads never had the facility and there are plenty still without.

Still, the wrong codings ring alarm bells as to the legitimacy of the report.

 

[Dozer 73]

I’ve heard of lead water pipes being used as earths and when properties get upgraded water supplies they loose main earth

 

[Octopus]

Maximum demand @ 100 Amps looks very fishy too.

 

[John Guy]

Andy78, I see you are in Hull!

He's in my neck of the woods. I would not be surprised at a lack of earthing conductor. Most service heads never had the facility and there are plenty still without.

Still, the wrong codings ring alarm bells as to the legitimacy of the report.

I am in your neck of the woods. Are you busy tomorrow morning or next Wednesday morning for a second opinion?

 

[John Guy]

...How big is the home and how long was the "inspector" in it?[/QUOTE]
It's a small two bed, with extended kitchen.
He was about 10-15 minutes under the stairs. I don't know if this is usual

 

[Dozer 73]

Why no r1 r2 when he’s stated earth sizes of cables also why no ins res between L and N , looks more of a visual test he’s carried out here

 

[Dozer 73]

Why no r1 r2 when he’s stated earth sizes of cables also why no ins res between L and N , looks more of a visual test he’s carried out here

 

[Dozer 73]

Why no r1 r2 when he’s stated earth sizes of cables also why no ins res between L and N , looks more of a visual test he’s carried out here