Discuss When will you start back working following the lockdown in the COViD-19 / Coronavirus Community Help Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

Gavin John Hyde

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Lockdown has been extended and it is possible it will be partially lifted in a few weeks. Jury is out on whether electricians are key workers unless it's emergency work etc but that's another argument.

If you are self employed then you can't avoid working forever. There are bills to pay and lifes to live.

I am rebooking jobs that were cancelled and have lots of car chargers to install from 6th May onwards. Looks like my holiday to South africa in June ain't happening so got 15 days to fill now with the backlog.
Rebooking other jobs that were delayed. Still managed to do quite a few during this period as the premises were otherwise empty. In all I have 3 1/2 weeks worth of work to reschedule. Only one customer cancelled completely due to being made redundant.

I appreciate the need to maintain social distance etc but with the right precautions such as PPE, keeping away from people and good hygiene then a lot of jobs can be done safely.

What are other peoples plans during this period and how will you decide to start back up?

On a positive note, my sister who is a planning officer in Bristol has said they have been inundated with planning applications over last month. They can't keep up.
They are predicting a boom in building related work based on that.
That's a positive sign for construction related trades. Coupled with the backlog of work I think things might bounce back a lot quicker than the doom brigade on the news and papers predict.
So time to get ready I say.
 
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JAWS

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As soon as Lockdown is lifted we go back to square one where cases will rocket again IMHO.
Our lives will be different for a very long time whether that's work, socialising this ass of a virus is here to stay until Herd immunity is implemented or a vaccine is found.
 

Midwest

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I think you chaps are too optimistic, not withstanding you are probably loosing and needing income.

Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.

Winston Churchill
 

davesparks

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I'll be back at work as soon as the theatres reopen again, so it could be a while.
I think SOLT(society of London theatre) have suggested it won't be until the end of May at the earliest now.
 
As soon as Lockdown is lifted we go back to square one where cases will rocket again IMHO.
Our lives will be different for a very long time whether that's work, socialising this ass of a virus is here to stay until Herd immunity is implemented or a vaccine is found.
Sweden reckons that herd immunity is a few weeks away for them.

I'm hoping that once the NHS purchasing department (NHS Supply Chain Ltd) get their heads around their job (i.e. buy enough PPE etc.), and assuming we still have large surplus hospital capacity (as we do now)... we can start to lift this lockdown and head towards herd immunity ourselves.

The general public will of course need to accept that there will be some deaths... and the media are making sure that's not going to happen anytime soon.

I'm not sure that wrapping everyone up in cotton wool for a couple of years and waiting for the country to go bankrupt is the right course of action...
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I'll be back at work as soon as the theatres reopen again, so it could be a while.
I think SOLT(society of London theatre) have suggested it won't be until the end of May at the earliest now.
Will that be with everyone spaced 2 metres apart ? How will they earn a living doing that ?
 
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telectrix

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there's no goverment ruling on carrying out work, essential or non-essential, except advice onprecautions. empllyed guys/gals can survive on 80% wages ( which is being already paid)whereas the self-employed may not be able to survive, having overheads to pay and no chance of the 80% till late June.
 

davesparks

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Will that be with everyone spaced 2 metres apart ? How will they earn a living doing that ?
I have no idea how it will work, I can only guess that there will be a gradual release of the lockdown with gatherings being allowed with slowly increasing numbers of people.

We may see small events and theatres (say <500 people) being allowed first with larger things following later.

From my point of view I just need them to re-open the buildings so that I can get in and do my work.
I'm expecting to be spending a bit of time just doing emergency lighting testing for the reoccupation of the buildings which have been empty for a few months.
 
I have no idea how it will work, I can only guess that there will be a gradual release of the lockdown with gatherings being allowed with slowly increasing numbers of people.

We may see small events and theatres (say <500 people) being allowed first with larger things following later.

From my point of view I just need them to re-open the buildings so that I can get in and do my work.
I'm expecting to be spending a bit of time just doing emergency lighting testing for the reoccupation of the buildings which have been empty for a few months.
Oh ok... makes sense... but was it Gove who said recently that pubs and clubs will probably be the last to reopen ? That might include theatres too ? Let's hope not...
 

7029 dave

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I really don't know the answer, knowing 2 people dead in my village, and some in hospital.(who I know of)
Im in no rush, job be dammed the hatch is well and truly down here, and I wont be surfacing till things get back.
Well they are my plans up to the moment.!!
 

davesparks

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Oh ok... makes sense... but was it Gove who said recently that pubs and clubs will probably be the last to reopen ? That might include theatres too ? Let's hope not...
I haven't been keeping up with what the politicians are saying really, I'm just keeping my head down at home. I'm occasionally hearing from my customers as to how their situations are developing.

On eof the theatres I do work for want to open the building as soon as possible to take the opportunity to have a fair amount of work done.
They've got some asbestos removal to get done, which now would be a great time for. Plus they want a bunch of electrical jobs done so I'll be busy there.
 

Gavin John Hyde

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It is a hard decision. I'm of the view that if the job is outside away from people with only minimal time inside such as adding the charger cable and rcbo etc into the board then with full PPE and distancing I am happy to do the job. Its a bit like the supermarket. You line up outside 2m apart then once inside everybody walks past you without a care in the world and so close you can see what they had for dinner on there jumper!!

I do think our government are playing catch up. The PPE is available but there is too much red tape in procurement. It won't go overnight this virus but given the lockdown has been In place 4 weeks and it hasn't really come down and only flat lined makes it seem we will have to get used to this social distancing for the foreseeable future.
 

Midwest

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there's no goverment ruling on carrying out work, essential or non-essential, except advice onprecautions. empllyed guys/gals can survive on 80% wages ( which is being already paid)whereas the self-employed may not be able to survive, having overheads to pay and no chance of the 80% till late June.
I know we’ve debated this point in other threads, and our opinions on the guidance differs.

It would ultimately rely on a court to decide if your working was against the law; if you were stopped by police travelling to your work, and they decided your explanation wasn’t good enough (travelling) and gave you a FPN, then you decided to appeal.

I have a letter from my employer, who have decided my employment is essential. I keep it with me, should the cops stop me. Very few if any contractors, can enter our premises now. Parcels and post are left at the front door. Likewise food deliveries.

Sweden’s policy may be seen as a way of fighting the virus. But only time will tell, and we are too far in to change tack now. But their graphs are going progressively steeper now.

IMO our ‘exit strategy’, will be a vaccine, coupled with less strict measures, but none the less still restricting people’s movements. But I think that is a few months off.

There are far too many un-vulnerable people dying of this thing, for these restrictions to be considered excessive.
 

Andy78

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I'm not even thinking of rebooking my postponed jobs yet. After the three weeks will be another three weeks.
The govt guidelines are poor regarding workers who can't work from home. Their policies in all of this have been economy first, people's lives last.
I'm staying off work until I can justify it to myself to go back, and that decision won't be financially based. My work is primarily in people's homes so I feel I have to be as careful as possible.
 

Baddegg

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All I keep hearing on the government adverts, tv/radio is traveling to and from work if you absolutely cannot work from home....I definitely cannot change that consumer unit from home amd would happily argue that with a judge, that’s the government advise.....
 

7029 dave

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All I keep hearing on the government adverts, tv/radio is traveling to and from work if you absolutely cannot work from home....I definitely cannot change that consumer unit from home amd would happily argue that with a judge, that’s the government advise.....
The guide lines are somewhat wishy washy.
 

Baddegg

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The guide lines are somewhat wishy washy.
I believe they are deliberately so, the government knows they can’t promise money in June and then make the self employed stay at home, not blaming the government as this is new territory for all but they have to be seen doing the best for all.....
 

Gavin John Hyde

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I believe they are deliberately so, the government knows they can’t promise money in June and then make the self employed stay at home, not blaming the government as this is new territory for all but they have to be seen doing the best for all.....
The government are constantly behind the curve, I know a plumber who is applying for the money from government self employed scheme based on last year's self assessment. At same time he's out working everyday and according to my cousin is doing it all cash in hand and not declaring it. Suspect he is not alone in that regard.
All this money will be paid back it ain't free. People are happy being furloughed but I expect National Insurance to go up afterwards maybe even Income Tax, it will, be dressed up as to help NHS etc and pay the debts incurred from this. But it wil stay at those rates.
I also think you will see the 40% tax bracket payers loose a lot of pension perks.
If fuel stays low expect taxes to go up disguised as green taxes... As if yo u could pay 1.30 a litre before why not now?
There is no such thing as free money from the tax man! That is a certainty
 

Baddegg

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For tradespersons working in people’s homes, I think it’s pretty clear.

Thats guidance for working in people’s homes and I agree it is clear, it still doesn’t address the 3-4 million self employed who have no choice, some will have savings some will not and when the government says June for some money that will be July...the whole universal credit thing is a farce with all the will in the world of the person on the phone interprets your entitlement wrong you are then on the merry go round with no money, I’m fortunate enough to not need it but I hear stories every day from self employed mates who are now really struggling and have no choice but to go out and scratch a living, 2-3 is a holiday and you’d not be earning anyway as normal but 2-3 is not realistic.....the real irony here is all the people at home on 80% have money to burn at the moment as they can’t spend as they used to so are getting all the jobs done around they house...and as gavin mentioned a lot are paying cash 😂
 
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Midwest

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Thats guidance for working in people’s homes and I agree it is clear, it still doesn’t address the 3-4 million self employed who have no choice, some will have savings some will not and when the government says June for some money that will be July...the whole universal credit thing is a farce with all the will in the world of the person on the phone interprets your entitlement wrong you are then on the merry go round with no money, I’m fortunate enough to not need it but I hear stories every day from self employed mates who are now really struggling and have no choice but to go out and scratch a living, 2-3 is a holiday and you’d not be earning anyway as normal but 2-3 is not realistic.....the real irony here is all the people at home on 80% have money to burn at the moment as they can’t spend as they used to so are getting all the jobs done around they house...and as gavin mentioned a lot are paying cash 😂
I can’t comment on the issue of no work and more importantly no money coming in for the self employed

But the guidance is there clear to read. If someone chooses to disregard that, and that includes the home owner, that’s their decision, and will have to face the consequences, whatever that might be.
 

Gavin John Hyde

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The real irony here is all the people at home on 80% have money to burn at the moment as they can’t spend as they used to so are getting all the jobs done around they house...and as gavin mentioned a lot are paying cash 😂
One of my cousins bought a hot tub lazy spa thing for a couple hundred quid.. Before you knew it half the street has them. Reason being paid to stay at home and can't go on holiday now. So they have money to spend and are indeed spending.
Apparently lazy spas/ pools, bbqs and outdoor furniture sales have skyrocketed...
I have had enquiries for running supplies for hot tubs... You'd think people would save the pennies for a rainy day but doesn't look likely
 

Midwest

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That’s my point @Midwest, it’s all a bit monty python.....here’s the rules that most people can’t follow 😂
There’s loads of people who break the laws. That’s we have cops.
Most people are law abiding. Just the minority who aren’t.

Perhaps we should follow the Romania lead;

 
There’s loads of people who break the laws. That’s why we have cops...
Yeah... but modern day policing is all about the safety of the general public, upholding the law is secondary if they have time.
Perhaps we should follow the Romania lead...
It's easier for countries that used to be communist... as the general public are willing to accept more state control. Not sure our police would be allowed to do that here !
 

Baddegg

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There’s loads of people who break the laws. That’s we have cops.
Most people are law abiding. Just the minority who aren’t.

Perhaps we should follow the Romania lead;

Are they breaking a law though?
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One of my cousins bought a hot tub lazy spa thing for a couple hundred quid.. Before you knew it half the street has them. Reason being paid to stay at home and can't go on holiday now. So they have money to spend and are indeed spending.
Apparently lazy spas/ pools, bbqs and outdoor furniture sales have skyrocketed...
I have had enquiries for running supplies for hot tubs... You'd think people would save the pennies for a rainy day but doesn't look likely
I had 978 views on my Checkatradre in the last 4 weeks and on affiliate membership at the moment as I don’t want much work....people are spending
 

Midwest

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Yeah... but modern day policing is all about the safety of the general public, upholding the law is secondary if they have time.

It's easier for countries that used to be communist... as the general public are willing to accept more state control. Not sure our police would be allowed to do that here !
The police attestation, requires them to do that and a bit more.

My other sentence was tongue in cheek. But it might stop some farting in church. :)
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Are they breaking a law though?
Who us or the Romanian‘s.
 

Baddegg

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The police attestation, requires them to do that and a bit more.

My other sentence was tongue in cheek. But it might stop some farting in church. :)
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Who us or the Romanian‘s.
Us and the laws
 

Simon47

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The general public will of course need to accept that there will be some deaths... and the media are making sure that's not going to happen anytime soon.
One thing I've not really seen discussed when they are showing the graphs on telly is "how many would normally be dying anyway" and "how many who are dying would be expected to have died in the next few months anyway". A LOT of people die every day normally, more so during the annual flu season. While it's clear that more are dying now, by no means all of them are "because coronavirus".
I realise it can be seen as a bit tasteless or macabre talking about people's lives like this, but it's reality and any rational discussion needs to consider it - and especially discussion of when/how restrictions are lifted need to consider it.
And, when I asked a well known search engine how many normally die, the second result was this well laid out article from the BBC. The normal figure for this time of year is around 10,000 deaths/week - but total deaths according to the article, in the week to 3rd April, the figure went up to 16,000, so 6,000 above the norm. I expect it's gone higher by now.
Hindsight will fill in the blanks. If there is a lull and weekly deaths drop below normal later in the year, then that could signal that possibly all that's happened is that people who would have died soon anyway have died a little earlier.

And of course there is one thing many people have failed to notice. The current guidance is not intended to stop the virus altogether - it's intended to keep the illness rate below the capacity of the NHS (and other care sectors) to deal with it. It's to a certain extent essential that people mingle and share it around - so that people can get it, recover, and then have at least temporary immunity. When enough people have immunity, the epidemic will fizzle out and become a background illness like so many others are - with the care sectors able to cope with the volumes.

BTW, here's a little puzzle for you - I claim no originality for it.
You have a large pond, and notice an invasive weed has arrived in it. The weed doubles in area every day, and in 30 days will completely cover the pond. After how many days will the pond be half covered ?
As it happens, there is a remedy that will kill the weed without destroying the environment, but there's a 10 day lead time before it takes effect. When is the last time you can apply it to prevent the pond being completely choked ?
And lastly, assuming you get that timing right, how much of the pond is covered by the weed when you apply the treatment ?
 

rapparee

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I went back to work yesterday after a month in lockdown.

After two days work I'm knackered

I've gotten soft this past month
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One thing I've not really seen discussed when they are showing the graphs on telly is "how many would normally be dying anyway" and "how many who are dying would be expected to have died in the next few months anyway". A LOT of people die every day normally, more so during the annual flu season. While it's clear that more are dying now, by no means all of them are "because coronavirus".
I realise it can be seen as a bit tasteless or macabre talking about people's lives like this, but it's reality and any rational discussion needs to consider it - and especially discussion of when/how restrictions are lifted need to consider it.
And, when I asked a well known search engine how many normally die, the second result was this well laid out article from the BBC. The normal figure for this time of year is around 10,000 deaths/week - but total deaths according to the article, in the week to 3rd April, the figure went up to 16,000, so 6,000 above the norm. I expect it's gone higher by now.
Hindsight will fill in the blanks. If there is a lull and weekly deaths drop below normal later in the year, then that could signal that possibly all that's happened is that people who would have died soon anyway have died a little earlier.

And of course there is one thing many people have failed to notice. The current guidance is not intended to stop the virus altogether - it's intended to keep the illness rate below the capacity of the NHS (and other care sectors) to deal with it. It's to a certain extent essential that people mingle and share it around - so that people can get it, recover, and then have at least temporary immunity. When enough people have immunity, the epidemic will fizzle out and become a background illness like so many others are - with the care sectors able to cope with the volumes.

BTW, here's a little puzzle for you - I claim no originality for it.
You have a large pond, and notice an invasive weed has arrived in it. The weed doubles in area every day, and in 30 days will completely cover the pond. After how many days will the pond be half covered ?
As it happens, there is a remedy that will kill the weed without destroying the environment, but there's a 10 day lead time before it takes effect. When is the last time you can apply it to prevent the pond being completely choked ?
And lastly, assuming you get that timing right, how much of the pond is covered by the weed when you apply the treatment ?
29 days

And I'd apply it on day 18.
 

Phil L

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BTW, here's a little puzzle for you - I claim no originality for it.
You have a large pond, and notice an invasive weed has arrived in it. The weed doubles in area every day, and in 30 days will completely cover the pond. After how many days will the pond be half covered ? 29th day
As it happens, there is a remedy that will kill the weed without destroying the environment, but there's a 10 day lead time before it takes effect. When is the last time you can apply it to prevent the pond being completely choked ? 19th day
And lastly, assuming you get that timing right, how much of the pond is covered by the weed when you apply the treatment ? Pass
 

Midwest

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I‘ve also read a similar article on weekly death rates; think it had a figure of 8000 extra deaths, contributed to the virus (accepting its not an exact science).

I tend to trust the advice & science given by our government, who are given advice by SAGE etc.

There are other European countries, that have different approaches, and different mortality rates from this virus.

But never the less, we have to follow the guidance we are given. Let them decide on the science.
 

Simon47

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Close
Apparently a lot of people say "day 15" for when the pond is half covered.
I think day 19 or 20 is the latest to apply the remedy - it sort of depends how you interpret thing a little. If the pond will be covered at the end of day 30, then as long as you applybthe remedy before the end of day 20 then you'll just squeak in.
At the end of day 20, just 1/1024th of the pond is covered, and 1/2048th is correct for day 19.
Again, many people can't understand a geometric progression like this - and they can't understand why you could have to take drastic measures when there doesn't seem to be a problem yet. 1/1024 is just under 0.1%
 
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telectrix

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1/1024 is just under 0.1%

wgich figure is approximatelythe same as the number of corona deaths per capita.
 

mattg4321

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A couple of people I know of have been forced to try and carry on with non essential work throughout the lockdown.

They have bills to pay and it's either that or fold their business, permanently lay off their furloughed employees and default on their bills. They are directors of their ltd companies paying around 60% of their personal income in dividends.

All above board and in line with the government rules, yet no help for them. The difference in tax sole trader vs ltd company director on a £30k income is only around £500 per year, yet some people think they 'don't pay their taxes'.

This will only become more common the longer this goes on. We'll see some businesses fold and furloughed employees lose their jobs.
 

Gavin John Hyde

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Seen on the news Taylor wimpy are going to open the sites again on 5th May onwards.
With PPE such as fpp3 face masks which should be standard on. Most sites due to dust and other irritants along with goggles etc then I would say it's probably safe as it can be. The key will be making sure people wear the PPE.
Expect more sites to open up over next few weeks.
I know a driver for a company who delivers plasterboard and like to the various sites. He has been told he's required back at work on 29th April. Deliveries starting the following day.
So things are firing back up
 

rapparee

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Seen on the news Taylor wimpy are going to open the sites again on 5th May onwards.
With PPE such as fpp3 face masks which should be standard on. Most sites due to dust and other irritants along with goggles etc then I would say it's probably safe as it can be. The key will be making sure people wear the PPE.
Expect more sites to open up over next few weeks.
I know a driver for a company who delivers plasterboard and like to the various sites. He has been told he's required back at work on 29th April. Deliveries starting the following day.
So things are firing back up
I'm back, we're adapting the factory for a skeleton production run starting next Tuesday

We need to supply the Scandinavians who never had a lockdown.
 

Midwest

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I’ve been working in a large premise since the lockdown began, supposedly following social distancing etc. Lots of other measures have been put in place, like barriers at reception, barring all bar essential contractors.

But people are people; staff have to work physically together, lifting things etc. Walking past each other in corridors, holding doors for others. Essential delivers still have to be made, and could be contaminated. And you should see the smoking shed, no 2 metre spacing there!

If you think you can return to work and able to comply with government guidance, you‘re misinformed, I’m afraid.
 

snowhead

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As now with the lockdown and social distancing not everyone is following it to the letter, but the majority are and that's what matters.

Same thing when things restart, as long as the majority follow the guidance most of the time the spread will be limited.
If people have to work in groups, as long as the groups stay the same and not continually change then the risk of spread is limited.
 

Midwest

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Don’t agree. Whilst I understand those that is a need to earn an income to survive, seems some don’t really understand how dangerous this virus is.

The CMO says we’ll only have an ‘exit strategy’ with a vaccine and medicines for treatment. And that’s a way off.

Masks only prevents the spread of infectious droplets from a person to others, it does not stop you getting infected. You may wish to read the procedure for removing a mask and how long one is effective. I can’t see any of that being followed on a building site.

So you go to work, get infected, and go home and pass it on.

I’m trying to be as cautious as I can.
 

rapparee

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But people are people; staff have to work physically together, lifting things etc. Walking past each other in corridors, holding doors for others. Essential delivers still have to be made, and could be contaminated. And you should see the smoking shed, no 2 metre spacing there!

If you think you can return to work and able to comply with government guidance, you‘re misinformed, I’m afraid.
We actually built a new smoke hut to accommodate the people.

The bike shed was demolished to make way for it, but that's just a casualty of war.
 

Vortigern

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Well I am being asked to continue/return to work on a mosque with other builders/trades who have continued working from a few weeks ago. I said I am not sure, as mid May seems to be the latest end of lockdown. But I see things are opening up again. I mean is the cure worse than the illness? I said I will consider the matter and talk next week about when to start back. To be honest I need the money. I have not jumped on the bandwagon with my cap out for freebees from the gov. I just don't know which way to jump on this. Besides I am enjoying the break and achieved a lot at home. Of course the other thing is the missus is now eying me up as the domestic worker. Think I would rather take my chances with coronovirus and work. I really don't know. I hope by next week guidance might change. At least the work before me I can work in pretty isolated work sites, which all inclines me to go and do some work.
 

Midwest

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Well I am being asked to continue/return to work on a mosque with other builders/trades who have continued working from a few weeks ago. I said I am not sure, as mid May seems to be the latest end of lockdown. But I see things are opening up again. I mean is the cure worse than the illness? I said I will consider the matter and talk next week about when to start back. To be honest I need the money. I have not jumped on the bandwagon with my cap out for freebees from the gov. I just don't know which way to jump on this. Besides I am enjoying the break and achieved a lot at home. Of course the other thing is the missus is now eying me up as the domestic worker. Think I would rather take my chances with coronovirus and work. I really don't know. I hope by next week guidance might change. At least the work before me I can work in pretty isolated work sites, which all inclines me to go and do some work.
Working conditions have altered again for staff at my place, more stricter. As I’ve said before, it’s very difficult keeping to the social distancing guidance and carry out your work.

I understand how financially difficult it must be for you guys, I don’t envy you. As things move on with combating this virus, hopefully things will change for you.
 

telectrix

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unfortunately they'll not change before my phone is cut off, van untaxed and uninsured. direct debits bounced by bank.
 

Vortigern

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This is the thing @telectrix is the cure worse than the illness. Just been reading studies this morning that suggest there is no difference to infection rate whatever the strategy used. Also the death rate is reckoned per thousand as 1-2. On top of this there are no cases (according to this study) that people who are otherwise healthy died of coronovirus. They did however say the deaths that have occurred with pre-existing conditions while recorded as dying of coronovirus should be rephrased to dying with coronovirus, i.e. not necessarily being the cause of death but rather the final straw.
Given the effects on our economy and the micro economy in yours and mine and others circumstances, i.e. penury and debt etc. what the hell are we supposed to do? Hence I am seriously thinking of working. Albeit in isolated work environments. I feel for you tel and others who are in this place.
 

Simon47

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I mean is the cure worse than the illness?
That point was raised in the BBC article I linked to a few posts back - scroll down to "How should we interpret the death toll?" about half way down the page and read from there. There's a telling bit that says :
And the tipping point, they say, is a 6.4% decline in the size of the economy - on a par with what happened following the 2008 financial crash.
It would see a loss of three months of life on average across the population because of factors such declining living standards and poorer health care.

I suspect that it won't be long, if we haven't passed it already, before we exceed that shrink in the economy. During the 2008 crash, things didn't stop as suddenly or on such a large scale as they have done recently.
EDIT: The problem with any strategy based on that argument is persuading some parts of the population that "yes, it really is in the best interests of the country as a whole and the people in it that we let this pandemic carry on at a high but manageable rate - and that does mean people will die".

And only last night on the telly, they were pointing out that the old & vulnerable are likely to be told to self isolate until at least September. That's a long time for someone to be stuck at home, bored and lonely without their usual social interactions. I know it won't be that long before my mum starts saying something along the lines of "to hell with that, I'm going shopping and if I catch it I catch it". At 87 she accepts that she's had a good innings, and is tending towards an attitude of "go out happy, not with a long but miserable life".
 
And... I'm sure I read the other day about 50,000 avoidable cancer deaths caused by the NHS stopping testing/treatment whilst the virus is around ?
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And... aren't Sweden showing a similar infection rate/death rate to us ? but they don't have the draconian segregation/shutdown ??

I've long since argued that as a country, we place far too high a value on life...
 

Midwest

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And... aren't Sweden showing a similar infection rate/death rate to us ? but they don't have the draconian segregation/shutdown ??

I've long since argued that as a country, we place far too high a value on life...
Only time will tell on that. Looked at some figures, and the US has 152 deaths to 1 million of population, where Sweden has 200 (due to CViD).

This is an interesting interpretation of events. Scroll down to ‘How confirmed cases of coronavirus has spread’.

 

littlespark

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I’ve been discussing this with my wife this morning.
If I was working in an empty property, on my own, and had all the materials so I don’t have to run off the wholesellers... fine. I would work.
Except my bread and butter is working in domestic, and a lot of my customers are over 70, or have health problems.

I was contacted last week about adding a few sockets on someone’s garage.... not in the house.... I told him I would do it, told him a price and he’s “thinking about it”

Also a job an hours drive away to run a SWA between 2 outbuildings.... waste of a trip when there’s other work to be done in the house itself.

A neighbour asked this morning if I could change their shower pull switch as it was stuck on..... again, told them a price and they’ve not come back.

I have other jobs to go back to, but it’s up to the individual customers.... and they don’t want anyone in the houses until lockdown is over..... whenever that may be
 

Vortigern

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So basically the data says the data cannot be relied upon...which begs the question why say anything. What is the point of spending no doubt thousands and thousands on a report that says it is not a report. Lies lies and damn corona statistics.
 
Check here for data without the 'spin'
Not sure I'd read too much into those figures... for example Vietnam has not declared any deaths due to Covid-19 ??

Also... how do we know if someone dies solely because of Covid-19 or they happened to have had the virus when they died.

I think the only sensible way to understand the toll is to look at the increase in the 'normal' death rate... although this will include people that have died of other causes, but were not treated due to the Covid-19 distraction.

There is no easy way...
 
Well its paperwork for me at the mo ....I am so behind. I have carried out the odd urgent domestic job, with full PPE preferring to self-isolate gloves, wash them and reuse....however, If my masks run out I'll have to double up on scarfs, neck gaiters or adapt pants on my face!!
When do I go back ?....when the phone starts ringing of course
 

littlespark

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I’m going to look at a job this morning. Work in a garage for sockets and lights. I don’t know yet if there’s power already and if there’s an rcd present. There is further work to do in the house, but that can wait.

Looks like Dan has been tampering again with the forum... always improving;) but it looks like I’ve lost my “smiley face wearing mask” avatar.. Back to my coffee cup




Ice cream vans going round the streets. Essential worker?

Discuss
 

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davesparks

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Ice cream vans going round the streets. Essential worker?

Discuss
There is still no restriction on non-essential workers.
Whilst an ice cream van doesn't appear to be a sensible thing at the moment, it is technically a takeaway food service I guess and as long as people stand 2m apart in the queue it could be safe.
 

Andy78

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There is still no restriction on non-essential workers.
Whilst an ice cream van doesn't appear to be a sensible thing at the moment, it is technically a takeaway food service I guess and as long as people stand 2m apart in the queue it could be safe.
Any takeaway service is not allowed to take orders at the counter. All orders should be remotely arranged ie by telephone. Same goes for any wholesalers offering collection services.
 

telectrix

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but, keeping things in perspective. up to date corona related deaths total approx. 0.3% of the population of the UK. whilst all deaths are tragic, for the victims and their families, it's statistically a small %.
 

Andy78

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but, keeping things in perspective. up to date corona related deaths total approx. 0.3% of the population of the UK. whilst all deaths are tragic, for the victims and their families, it's statistically a small %.
To provide more perspective, the 0.3% figure only represents deaths we know about and only deaths so far.
It does not include deaths of people who were not tested which are thought to be many thousands.
It does not include deaths of people affected by other factors such as lack of available care from a stretched NHS.
Two weeks ago the weekly death toll of all deaths in England and Wales was double its usual level, 3000 deaths in that week were excessive to normal levels but not attributed to covid-19.

It is likely to be years before the true figures are known. After China relaxed preventative measures and reassessed their data, their total death toll jumped by 50%

The govt initially said if they could keep total deaths to fewer than 20k they would have succeeded, so the govt strategy has already failed spectacularly.
 
'essential' was a nefarious term from day one, simply dependent on whomever was in need or asked.

relief , especially for the smallest of sm biz (SBA qualifies 500 and less as small) was a joke.

i applied for it all.....there was simply no way for small hand to mouth biz to stay alive with what was offered

now we are allowed to operate by degree, but the fact are materials and suppliers have been compromised, to the point where nothing is a 'sure thing'

Anecdotally, most of my biz will now be businesses changing hands , escapees setting up camp

But the bottom line is an entire economy does not turn on/off like the many switches we install, thus the market heads down the road to perdition.

If any of us were an airline or bank we'd be livin' large , but if you're a little guy , go google the sm biz projections for the next year , it ain't pretty

good luck

~S~
 

davesparks

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but, keeping things in perspective. up to date corona related deaths total approx. 0.3% of the population of the UK. whilst all deaths are tragic, for the victims and their families, it's statistically a small %.
Expressing it as a percentage of the population of the UK is misleading, it implies that the rate of deaths is much lower than it is.
You need to express the number of deaths as a percentage of the number of cases of coronavirus, this will give a more accurate representation.

You could accurately say a fraction of a percent of the population of the UK die from asbestosis, this makes it sound far better than when you say 100% of people with asbestosis ultimately die from it.
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Any takeaway service is not allowed to take orders at the counter. All orders should be remotely arranged ie by telephone. Same goes for any wholesalers offering collection services.
I didn't know that bit, in which case the ice cream van isn't complying
 

Andy78

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I didn't know that bit, in which case the ice cream van isn't complying
I've just re read the guidance from govt (reason is the missus works in a takeaway at the moment) and it's more vague than I quoted to be honest.

It's worded "should only be taking telephone orders" but that's geared up for premises to stop crowding. And as ever it's only guidance.
A bit like the heights for sockets complies with part M but is not the only way to comply I suppose.
 

littlespark

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A little detail of the ice cream van in question...

There were 2 occupants, the driver/server and a passenger. When stopped the passenger, wearing a mask, apron and gloves, got out and managed the queue. Which was a queue of one when I saw them. I couldn't tell if the server had a mask on, but I think blue food grade gloves are normal anyway.
I can only assume the driver and passenger are from the same household.

Personally, I am a little biased against ice cream vans.
When I was running the wifes familys caravan park, we had a van come round. He had come in, asked permission, and when he'd done his round, would stop outside the office and let us have something.
Another van turned up one day, stepping on the regular guys turf, and the pair of them had a massive barney in the carpark...

After that we started stocking ice creams in reception, and told both of them not to come back
 

Andy78

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A little detail of the ice cream van in question...

There were 2 occupants, the driver/server and a passenger. When stopped the passenger, wearing a mask, apron and gloves, got out and managed the queue. Which was a queue of one when I saw them. I couldn't tell if the server had a mask on, but I think blue food grade gloves are normal anyway.
I can only assume the driver and passenger are from the same household.

Personally, I am a little biased against ice cream vans.
When I was running the wifes familys caravan park, we had a van come round. He had come in, asked permission, and when he'd done his round, would stop outside the office and let us have something.
Another van turned up one day, stepping on the regular guys turf, and the pair of them had a massive barney in the carpark...

After that we started stocking ice creams in reception, and told both of them not to come back
Another ice cream man trying to scoop another's patch ? How dairy ?
I can understand them being territorial on a caravan park as you could make plenty of lolly, especially on a sundae.
Let's hope after the argument none of them felt bad enough to top themselves.

I thank you.

And I apologise.

I'm here all week. And probably the next few months.
 

telectrix

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Another ice cream man trying to scoop another's patch ? How dairy ?
I can understand them being territorial on a caravan park as you could make plenty of lolly, especially on a sundae.
Let's hope after the argument none of them felt bad enough to top themselves.

I thank you.

And I apologise.

I'm here all week. And probably the next few months.
suppose it was something like:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e1xvyTdBZI
 

Midwest

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Funnyly enough, I've heard the ice cream van circling round my estate today. I remember reading about one guy that had several vans, but had temporarily closed down his business, cos of COViD19.

Guess everyone is not following the guidance. Like some here are being tempted (because of financial hardship) of returning to work.
 

Vortigern

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Yes @Midwest I am thinking of going back to work in the next week or so. It has been arranged I can work on my own. But I must say there are still a few guys on site plastering and rendering and doing carpentry and have been throughout. I guess my door to van, van to site, site to van, van to home again surely can't be a risk, gulp! I suppose I could be wrong.
 

Midwest

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Yes @Midwest I am thinking of going back to work in the next week or so. It has been arranged I can work on my own. But I must say there are still a few guys on site plastering and rendering and doing carpentry and have been throughout. I guess my door to van, van to site, site to van, van to home again surely can't be a risk, gulp! I suppose I could be wrong.
I don’t envy you guys, as I said before.

Ive not stopped working, deemed an essential worker. However, from my experience working in a large premises, it’s almost impossible to follow social distancing guidelines. I expect the likes of Amazon or Tesco warehouses will be the same.

On a smaller scale, guess you can be more selective. But you should still follow the guidance.
 

123

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but, keeping things in perspective. up to date corona related deaths total approx. 0.3% of the population of the UK. whilst all deaths are tragic, for the victims and their families, it's statistically a small %.
It's hopefully not going to be anywhere near 0.3% of the population, that would be almost 200,000
 

Vortigern

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I have tried to take a careful look at .gov advice/instructions and it seems it is ok to go to work. Especially regarding construction industries and of course within that electricians. I looked at the attached guidance and advice on .gov web site and I conclude it is ok to go to work what say you all? It refers you to the following doc.
 

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davesparks

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I have tried to take a careful look at .gov advice/instructions and it seems it is ok to go to work. Especially regarding construction industries and of course within that electricians. I looked at the attached guidance and advice on .gov web site and I conclude it is ok to go to work what say you all?
Going to work has always been allowed where it is not possible to do the work from home, as long as you, or anyone you live with, don't have any symptoms of the disease

Working in peoples homes has been a bit of a tricky one, it's technically allowed but nobody really wants to, or wants people to.
 

Vortigern

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but .gov advice says it's ok to work on normal things given no one is ill and two metre rule observed with hand washing and bacterial gel etc.
 

davesparks

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Only for essential maintenance or repairs.
I'm sure that's changed again, it was allowed in previous guidance. I downloaded the guidance a few weeks ago.

It's refusing to let me upload and image but it says that:
Work carried out in people’s homes, for example by tradespeople carrying out repairs and maintenance,
can continue, provided that the tradesperson is well and has no symptoms. Again, it will be important to
ensure that Public Health England guidelines, including maintaining a 2 metre distance from any household
occupants, are followed to ensure everyone’s safety.
No work should be carried out in any household which is isolating or where an individual is being shielded,
unless it is to remedy a direct risk to the safety of the household, such as emergency plumbing or repairs,
and where the tradesperson is willing to do so. In such cases, Public Health England can provide advice to
tradespeople and households.
No work should be carried out by a tradesperson who has coronavirus symptoms, however mild.
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but .gov advice says it's ok to work on normal things given no one is ill and two metre rule observed with hand washing and bacterial gel etc.
That depends on where you look, there is guidance on one part of the site that says work can continue in people's homes, with repairs and maintainence given as an example of work that might be done in people's homes.
On anothe rpart of the site it says that only emergency repairs can be carried out in people's homes.
 

Andy78

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@davesparks

I've just copied and pasted this. Updates dated 27/04


Tradespeople and working in people’s homes
You are a tradesperson carrying out essential repairs and maintenance in people’s homes. You can continue work, providing that you are well and have no symptoms. You should notify all clients in advance of your arrival.

On entry to the home you should wash your hands using soap and water for 20 seconds. You should wash your hands regularly, particularly after blowing your nose, sneezing or coughing, and when leaving the property. Where facilities to wash hands are not available, hand sanitiser should be used, and you should carry this with you at all times.

You should maintain a safe distance (at least 2 metres) from any household occupants at all times, and ensure good ventilation in the area where you are working, including opening the window.

No work should be carried out in any household which is isolating or where an individual is being shielded, unless your work is to remedy a direct risk to the safety of the household, such as emergency plumbing or repair.

No work should be carried out by a tradesperson who has coronavirus symptoms, however mild.


Source url

 

davesparks

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@davesparks

I've just copied and pasted this. Updates dated 27/04


Tradespeople and working in people’s homes
You are a tradesperson carrying out essential repairs and maintenance in people’s homes. You can continue work, providing that you are well and have no symptoms. You should notify all clients in advance of your arrival.

On entry to the home you should wash your hands using soap and water for 20 seconds. You should wash your hands regularly, particularly after blowing your nose, sneezing or coughing, and when leaving the property. Where facilities to wash hands are not available, hand sanitiser should be used, and you should carry this with you at all times.

You should maintain a safe distance (at least 2 metres) from any household occupants at all times, and ensure good ventilation in the area where you are working, including opening the window.

No work should be carried out in any household which is isolating or where an individual is being shielded, unless your work is to remedy a direct risk to the safety of the household, such as emergency plumbing or repair.

No work should be carried out by a tradesperson who has coronavirus symptoms, however mild.


Source url

Yes, I've seen that now, but if you look here Staying at home and away from others (social distancing) - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/full-guidance-on-staying-at-home-and-away-from-others/full-guidance-on-staying-at-home-and-away-from-others
In paragraph 7 it has very different advice.

We know that your quote is the more recent advice, and the most sensible to follow, but they really should be keeping the advice the same across the whole gov.uk site
 

Risteard

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Yes, I've seen that now, but if you look here Staying at home and away from others (social distancing) - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/full-guidance-on-staying-at-home-and-away-from-others/full-guidance-on-staying-at-home-and-away-from-others
In paragraph 7 it has very different advice.

We know that your quote is the more recent advice, and the most sensible to follow, but they really should be keeping the advice the same across the whole gov.uk site
Essential repairs are essentially given as an example of works carried out in people's homes.

However there is absolutely no prohibition in law in carrying out any types of works in someone's home - regardless of whether these are essential repairs or not. So you are correct in this.

It's deeply unfortunate that they have decided to issue guidance which contradicts the law - I believe that is wholly wrong of them. But I would imagine that very few would wish to carry out non-essential works in someone's home at this time - in spite of it being completely legal to do so.
 

davesparks

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Essential repairs are essentially given as an example of works carried out in people's homes.

However there is absolutely no prohibition in law in carrying out any types of works in someone's home - regardless of whether these are essential repairs or not. So you are correct in this.

It's deeply unfortunate that they have decided to issue guidance which contradicts the law - I believe that is wholly wrong of them. But I would imagine that very few would wish to carry out non-essential works in someone's home at this time - in spite of it being completely legal to do so.
I'm not talking about the legalities of any of this, just the guidance published on gov.uk

The guidance I linked to states, as you say, that any work can be carried out in a person's home.
The guidance Andy quoted, also from gov.uk, states that only essential repairs and maintainence should be carried out.

As for the law, yes there is no law relating to covid 19 which prevents you working in people's homes, the guidance would say 'must' where it says 'should' etc if there were.
 

pirate

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It's all -------s!
i did 2 "essential" repairs last week. all the "criteria" were met...except...how do I know if I have the virus, if i am showing/feeling no signs/symptoms? Maybe i inadvertently carried covid into those homes?
Plus, what do the police know about what is "essential" and what is not? That's not their job. Clearly, taking a cake to someone is hardly essential, but if you have a van load of test gear and tools, they can hardly charge you with non-essential travel, unless they follow you to the job and watch what you do.
It's largely common sense, and adherence to the proper spirit of the rules...I expect most on here know what that means.
It's equally clear that NOBODY knows where this is going yet...any relaxation will have to be decided by best judgement on available evidence...
Incidentally, when a local Costa coffee opened it's doors yesterday the queue of cars was unbelievable...you may have seen it on TV? How can driving out to a coffee shop be considered essential?
Wine bar maybe...
 

Midwest

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Essential repairs are essentially given as an example of works carried out in people's homes.

However there is absolutely no prohibition in law in carrying out any types of works in someone's home - regardless of whether these are essential repairs or not. So you are correct in this.

It's deeply unfortunate that they have decided to issue guidance which contradicts the law - I believe that is wholly wrong of them. But I would imagine that very few would wish to carry out non-essential works in someone's home at this time - in spite of it being completely legal to do so.
What ‘prohibition in law’ are you referring to?

Ive read some of the Act, its quite long and deals with many things, but I don’t think, I might be wrong, that deals with, in detail in working in people’s homes. Each country in the UK it’s broadly the same, but each has its own regulations (things might be different in Ireland). But there is the guidance on working in people’s homes. If tradespersons and clients choose to ignore, then they may suffer the consequences, whatever that might be.

The police have certain powers, one of which is leaving the place where you live without reasonable excuse. Installing a new circuit, for an indoor sauna, for a domestic client would not be essential IMO, and therefore the travel to & from there, also not essential.

Currently the guidance is only to work in people’s homes, for essential repairs & maintenance. Working in an empty premise, such as a warehouse, would not fall foul of this guidance IMO.

The premise where I work, has stopped all contractors entering, save for emergency repairs. I’ve have been given a letter by my employer, stating my presence in their work place as essential. Some have already had to show their letter to police to prove their travel (to & from work) is essential.

I understand how difficult it is financially, because of the lockdown, where their ones work is dedicated to the domestic area. But the guidance is there for a reason.

Of course this might change soon, because the majority of the population have been adhering to the guidance, and the virus is being beaten.
 
The guidance Andy quoted, also from gov.uk, states that only essential repairs and maintainence should be carried out.
It appears the guidance Andy quoted is only guidance for an example scenario:

Overview

This is a list of tailored advice for different scenarios as an example of how social distancing and other measures might be implemented by employers in England to help protect their workforce and customers from coronavirus while still continuing to trade.
...
These are not intended to be comprehensive or to represent every business’s situation, but are illustrative examples.
 

littlespark

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They all use the words “essential maintenance and repair” suggesting that the electrical installation is existing and workers have to attend to either fix it, test it or otherwise make sure it’s still working as it should.
Doesn’t say anything about new installations
However. Empty premises, no face to face contact... must be safer than standing in queue for Tesco’s.
We are all bending the rules a little here and there.... I go out at least 3 times a day to exercise instead of just once. Walking the dog.... is that against the rules?....

They are talking now of lifting some of the restrictions, which will just cause confusion IMO now that we are used to this.
 

Risteard

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What ‘prohibition in law’ are you referring to?

Ive read some of the Act, its quite long and deals with many things, but I don’t think, I might be wrong, that deals with, in detail in working in people’s homes. Each country in the UK it’s broadly the same, but each has its own regulations (things might be different in Ireland). But there is the guidance on working in people’s homes. If tradespersons and clients choose to ignore, then they may suffer the consequences, whatever that might be.

The police have certain powers, one of which is leaving the place where you live without reasonable excuse. Installing a new circuit, for an indoor sauna, for a domestic client would not be essential IMO, and therefore the travel to & from there, also not essential.

Currently the guidance is only to work in people’s homes, for essential repairs & maintenance. Working in an empty premise, such as a warehouse, would not fall foul of this guidance IMO.

The premise where I work, has stopped all contractors entering, save for emergency repairs. I’ve have been given a letter by my employer, stating my presence in their work place as essential. Some have already had to show their letter to police to prove their travel (to & from work) is essential.

I understand how difficult it is financially, because of the lockdown, where their ones work is dedicated to the domestic area. But the guidance is there for a reason.

Of course this might change soon, because the majority of the population have been adhering to the guidance, and the virus is being beaten.
I stated NO position in law. So I wasn't claiming that there was one.

In the south of Ireland there is a stipulation in regulations about emergency call-out only for electrical to homes and businesses but that only applies there. That was until the 12th April but currently is in place now until the 18th May as far as I can tell.

The economic carnage will be severe.
 

Midwest

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I stated NO position in law. So I wasn't claiming that there was one.
I was just replying to what you posted;

’However there is absolutely no prohibition in law in carrying out any types of works in someone's home - regardless of whether these are essential repairs or not. So you are correct in this’.

’It's deeply unfortunate that they have decided to issue guidance which contradicts the law - I believe that is wholly wrong of them’.

Perhaps you were referring to Ireland.
 

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