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Discuss Who,s allowed to do what! in the Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

J

johnnyb

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Guys an Girls Don,t know if this is a regional thing or what, but just take this as the scenario. Un registered Electrician wanting a certifate for work done, and not in a position to give a cert. He may well be a very good spark and you may know him and his standards are good. We have been strongly told by Niecc that in NO way can we test his work and sign it off with a cert, as we did,nt do the initial install. Is this a UK veiw or just a Regional thing, we are in Manchester.
 
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S

Spudnik

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #2
Its a government thing.

Nothing to do with the scheme providers.
 
G

Guest123

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #3
Hey jonny.

The one and only way that you could do it is a periodic inspection report.

It's the same all over, no differences.
 
W

WayneL

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #4
Hi,

I'd be interested in answers to this question as well.

If we are fully qualified to test and inspect ie. 2391/ part p scheme approved, why can't we test new installations (for

a fee of course) done by other electricians?

Lets face it, if you notify the work and the council send a contractor out to inspect/test your installs, isn't this exactly

what he is doing??? How do they get away with it.

And if you own a small electrical firm employing say 5 sparks, you can inspect, test and sign off their work as it's done

by your firm - they don't all have to register with a scheme!

So what's the difference?

I think it's all to do with the cash - scheme providers want as many people having to sign on with them as possible and

the local councils want to control fees for test/inspecting so they don't want any competition on pricing!!

Once again we're getting screwed!

Just my opinion, I may be wrong.

Wayne
 
J

johnnyb

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #5
No, i was asking a legitimate Q, on ,can or can you not sign another job, done by someone else off or not, some firms do, we don,t, whats the answer? thats why i am asking you all, i am not relating it to anyone other thread personally, just want to know thats all.
 
S

Spudnik

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #6
A lot of councils dont want to get involved in it at all, because of the poor implementation of it from the start.

A contractor instructed by any LABC to test and certify work will visit at every stage of the installation, not just when its all finished to write up test results.

Its not a lot different from a builder having to do the same at various stages of a build.

No, i was asking a legitimate Q, on ,can or can you not sign another job, done by someone else off or not, some firms do, we don,t, whats the answer? thats why i am asking you all, i am not relating it to anyone other thread personally, just want to know thats all.
NO. The government does not allow it UNLESS it goes through LABC.

Double edged sword im afraid.
 
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W

WayneL

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #7
Hi Johnnyb,

I think Jasons6930 answered your question - it's a government thing (country wide) - no you can't.


Cheers

Wayne
 
G

Guest123

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #8
No, i was asking a legitimate Q, on ,can or can you not sign another job, done by someone else off or not, some firms do, we don,t, whats the answer? thats why i am asking you all, i am not relating it to anyone other thread personally, just want to know thats all.
In a word no. As I said before the only way one contractor can test another contractors work is a periodic inspection report.

Cheers.
 
J

johnnyb

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #9
Take all your points ,but i agree as well with Wayne, in this "free and democratic country of ours" we pay the fees to be Competent Electricians paying out good money to be trained and certified only to be stopped by the very scheme provider of earning money off other Electricians who have NOT spent the time and effort to pass exams etc therefore stopping me doing my job of being a Competent Approved Electrician,
 
S

Spudnik

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #10
Im glad we cant sign off others work.

Who knows what mess they made of it and it has got my name on the cert.

No thanks.
 
J

johnnyb

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #12
But like you mentioned Jason, if you go onto the site every now and then like you would if a building was been built, you would see the standard, and of course charge for the privilige accordingly, whats up with that, they are happy, and you are happy.
 
S

sixfingers

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #13
What does happen then when you work for a company?
 
W

WayneL

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #14
I still don't see the big problem -

You go along and visually inspect the first fix - then return and inspect/test the final installation, submit your invoice- job done.

You would do exactly the same thing if you employed a few sparks and sent out a few vans every day
to cover your workload - you couldn't oversee every installation from start to finish.

Or is my inexperience showing through here??:confused:


Wayne
 
J

johnnyb

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #15
If you work for the Company and you have the 2391 and 17th whats stopping your gaffer saying right sixfingers go to Buckingham Palace where Joe Bloggs is doing an install and either do some tests if need be or have a look at the standard of his/hers work and report back, you get paid the firm get paid off Joe Bloggs. Thats simple init.
 
S

Spudnik

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #16
Im afraid chaps i dont have the answer.

If you worked for a company then the QS takes the responsibility to make sure the work is up to standard.

Dont forget its YOUR insurance and shoulders that it would all land on if it ever came to court for whatever reasons. If you work for a company then its theirs.

I believe that if LABC instruct the tests then the buck stops with them and its their responsibility.

Clear as mud innit?:rolleyes:
 
S

sixfingers

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #17
Totally agree! just what i was getting at!:)
 
G

Guest123

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #18
IMO it's safer not to get involved in the first place.

It's a PIR or nothing for me.
 
J

johnnyb

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #19
Am i a minority here or what, all i am saying is WHY do the Niecc stop us testing other peoples installs, and i think Wayne hit the nail on the head £££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££ thats why, they want everybodies money off them individually, not bothered about the £1000,s you have spent on test equipment/ exams/ time off getting those exams, thats it, now does no one agree with that.
 
S

Spudnik

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #20
Am i a minority here or what, all i am saying is WHY do the Niecc stop us testing other peoples installs, and i think Wayne hit the nail on the head £££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££ thats why, they want everybodies money off them individually, not bothered about the £1000,s you have spent on test equipment/ exams/ time off getting those exams, thats it, now does no one agree with that.

Its NOT the NICEIC that dont allow it, its the government and Part P.

None of the bodies allow us to do it.

READ THIS: http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_ADP_2006.pdf

Page 12 SEC 1.28
 
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S

sixfingers

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #21
The nice man from the niceic told me just make sure you double check em!:)
 
S

Spudnik

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #23
In all honesty i have done a couple, but i have been involved at every stage of the install, mainly because i was on site doing other things.

As i said, if you are happy to sign off others work then its up to you.

It WILL be your problem if it all goes pear shaped as your name is on the cert.
 
J

johnnyb

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #24
Jason, earlier on i mentioned, when we asked our NIECC inspector this very Q, his reply was a very strict "absolutely no way can we test anybody elses installs, and certify that work, " although we would make regular visits to site, as would our LABC, whats the difference between them and us, i think you in some way call it discrimination, or is that a little unfair? I know whats Lenny is saying and yourself don,t get involved with other peoples work, but as long as that other work is OK and passed by Ourselves whats wrong in that. This isn,t a scenario, but i do know some older sparks than myself and i am 50 that cannot be even bothered going back to college, and there work is 1st class boys, what about them, why do you not think that is it wrong for me to go to site regulary and inspect therework and they pay me for the privilige, what do you see wrong in that?
 
S

Spudnik

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #25
Johnny,

I personally dont have a problem with it at all!!!

I am just saying that it isnt allowed, but that doesnt stop it happening.

I also understand 100% what you are saying but i dont make the rules:)
 
G

Guest123

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #26
In our eyes nothing. I feel as long as you are happy to do it then it should be allowed but on your head be it.
Unfortunately the powers that be think otherwise and, in a way it is a form of discrimination they can do it why cant we?? As you've said we pay all this money to become qualified and to have membership of whichever scheme and it does seem unfair, but I dont write the regs and it's just not permitted

Personally I dont think I could anyway, I'd be terrible if I had to go and inspect the job at various stages I'd be checking absolutely everything at least twice so in the end it would be like I was doing a periodic anyway.
 
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J

johnnyb

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #27
Time to change the rules then, who bloomin makes them then, ? goin countin them sheep boys its hard gettin 100 in the bedroom. See Ya All Tomoz ps who does make them rules, EH!
 
K

kung

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #30
In our eyes nothing. I feel as long as you are happy to do it then it should be allowed but on your head be it.
Unfortunately the powers that be think otherwise and, in a way it is a form of discrimination they can do it why cant we?? As you've said we pay all this money to become qualified and to have membership of whichever scheme and it does seem unfair, but I dont write the regs and it's just not permitted

Personally I dont think I could anyway, I'd be terrible if I had to go and inspect the job at various stages I'd be checking absolutely everything at least twice so in the end it would be like I was doing a periodic anyway.
Agree 100% the way i see it is if you want to inspect/test etc someone elses work then you should be able to ! its our quals/tools/testers etc etc but i couldnt as its not only me it affects its my family if anything happens like ive checked their install then whilst putting floorboards etc back they change their minds and do something diff then i have to prove it was altered ! if anything goes wrong. To be honest id only do it for trusted friends and family in this climate we the contractors have to be very carefull as even if we do an install and after we have tested/inspected/issued cert someone could then think irll just have a look at how thats wired so next time i can have a go etc etc and remove something and reconnect it wrong we have to prove we didnt do it ! its going such a way that i photograph everything and file the pics at the end of every job with paperwork etc its a bit extream but at least id have a good case against the beak !
Regards
Kung.
 
W

WayneL

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #31
I agree with Kung - when I finally get round to testing and inspecting

I will be doing exactly that - digital photos of everything I test/inspect - in

this day and age it's easy enough - then file the photos with copies of all

other paperwork for that job.

That way if anyone changes anything after you've signed it off you

can prove it wasn't passed in that condition.

Wayne
 
S

suburban

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #32
Also the niceic say you have to be trading for at least six months before you apply, what does the LABC expect new start ups to do.
 
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M

Mark2009

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #33
Guys an Girls Don,t know if this is a regional thing or what, but just take this as the scenario. Un registered Electrician wanting a certifate for work done, and not in a position to give a cert. He may well be a very good spark and you may know him and his standards are good. We have been strongly told by Niecc that in NO way can we test his work and sign it off with a cert, as we did,nt do the initial install. Is this a UK veiw or just a Regional thing, we are in Manchester.
Hi
The way round the system is that you sign contracts with this person then you are not subcontracting the work out, he is employed.

Big Companies who are not NIC REG use this system.

Thanks

Mark
 

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