torque requirements of MCB terminals

[spud1]

Does anyone know the general torque requirements of MCB terminals?
Just bought myself a new torque screwdriver set and ought to know what I should be setting it to!

 

[trev]

Each different brand could have a different torque setting

 

[Andy78]

The requirements, if any, will be included in the literature associated with the equipment.

 

[spud1]

Each different brand could have a different torque setting

That sucks....

 

[trev]

That sucks....

Why? Because you have to read some info?

 

[spud1]

Why? Because you have to read some info?

Yeah, I cant read....

 

[trev]

Get Mrs Spud to read the product info and tell you about it then

 

[spud1]

Good thinkin batman! Cheers for the advice.

 

[Brad1]

Just becareful buying a Torque screwdriver... Not all brands (Such as schneider) cover the full range of torque settings required by manufactures.

 

[spud1]

Just becareful buying a Torque screwdriver... Not all brands (Such as schneider) cover the full range of torque settings required by manufactures.

You have got to be kidding! Its a schneider that I have bought this morning! £75 quid!! I can feel a credit back coming on..

 

[Geordie Spark]

Why? Because you have to read some info?

Because he's about to learn the futility of buying a Torque Screwdriver for domestic MCB's with their pi$$y slack poorly formed terminal screws and badly tapped holes in the busbars.

Until the manufacturers seriously address that little issue you'll never get the terminals to stay tight for any length of time!

If you don't understand what I'm banging on about take a look at your modern terminals and compare them with the old ones that you're all so keen to chuck away. Two properly formed screws per terminal for a start!!

 

[trev]

Good thinkin batman! Cheers for the advice.

It's win/win mate. You don't have to learn to read and she learns about what you do for a living.

 

[spud1]

It's win/win mate. You don't have to learn to read and she learns about what you do for a living.

She already think she knows everything about being a sparky! I've yet to break it to her that RCD doesn't really stand for REALLY CLEVER DEVICE though!

 

[Geordie Spark]

You have got to be kidding! Its a schneider that I have bought this morning! £75 quid!! I can feel a credit back coming on..

Find yourself an old-school engineer to teach you how to use & look after your screwdrivers & give him your £75.

I still have the set I made when I was an apprentice and they're still in good order and YES they DO get used!!

 

[Brad1]

Find yourself an old-school engineer to teach you how to use & look after your screwdrivers & give him your £75.

I still have the set I made when I was an apprentice and they're still in good order and YES they DO get used!!

Difference being Torque screwdrivers/ torque setting screws etc is now regulations.

 

[telectrix]

Difference being Torque screwdrivers/ torque setting screws etc is now regulations.

since when?

 

[spud1]

Difference being Torque screwdrivers/ torque setting screws etc is now regulations.

NICEIC ask to see your torque screwdriver during inspection. I could rub some mud on it and make it looked used. A strong wrist and experience is all you need to do up an MCB, luckily I have both (No jokes about strong wrists please)

 

[Brad1]

since when?

Regulation

Regulation 134.1.1 of BS 7671:2008 states:
Good workmanship by competent persons or persons under their supervision and proper materials shall be used in the erection of the electrical installation. Electrical equipment shall be installed in accordance with the instructions provided by the manufacturer on the equipment.

So reading the manufacturers data/instruction they'll tell you to torque set it to X amount.

 

[davesparks]

Difference being Torque screwdrivers/ torque setting screws etc is now regulations.

Which regulation would that be then?

 

[Geordie Spark]

Regulation

So reading the manufacturers data/instruction they'll tell you to torque set it to X amount.

Some of these terminals are of such poor quality you hardly need a screwdriver at all - you can almost push them in with your thumb just like a press stud!

 

[Andy78]

Regulation

So reading the manufacturers data/instruction they'll tell you to torque set it to X amount.

Except where manufacturers instructions are not relevant or improper to the correct and safe installation of equipment, which I have come across many times. And I believe the wording of this reg has changed in the BYB anyway.

 

[Brad1]

I suggest you buy well known brands which are CE marked and checked and not skimp out on poor products that'll have poor connection/terminations.

 

[spud1]

Except where manufacturers instructions are not relevant or improper to the correct and safe installation of equipment, which I have come across many times. And I believe the wording of this reg has changed in the BYB anyway.

As in Competent person becomes skilled person. What will this person be in the 18th edition? A master craftsman, perhaps godlike in the 19th?

 

[Geordie Spark]

She already think she knows everything about being a sparky! I've yet to break it to her that RCD doesn't really stand for REALLY CLEVER DEVICE though!

As long as she's happy thinking that I wouldn't bother confusing her with what it means.

 

[Andy78]

I suggest you buy well known brands which are CE marked and checked and not skimp out on poor products that'll have poor connection/terminations.

I always do my good fellow, but I don't always supply all the equipment I install. I don't always install equipment I have not provided either.

 

[davesparks]

Regulation

So reading the manufacturers data/instruction they'll tell you to torque set it to X amount.

Do they? the MIs for the KMF switch sitting on my desk at the moment only have a recommended torque for the terminals. A lot of MIs will state a recommended torque and a maximum torque but will very rarely specify a torque that a terminal which connects directly to a cable must be tightened to. This is because the correct torque will be different depending on the size and type of conductor being terminated.

 

[Brad1]

So going back to the regulation. They( the manufacturer) has stated in their instructions/data a recommended Torque which as yourself has just confirmed and so not following that recommendation which they have stated is not following the instructions which is written in black and white on the data sheet is technically breaking a "regulation." Like the whole IEE wiring regulations, it's not law to follow them but against the law if you don't. Some questions are better off not asked/answered, but that's what they'll say if (Unfortunately and hope it never does) it went to court. These days it's all about covering your backside in our world and pass the blame back to the manufacturer.

 

[specs]

I keep coming across CU's where the standard is well below par, you need muscles like 'Garth' to get the screws in the neutral and earth bars to tighten. The builder keeps coming back with units from the 'sheds' which I now point blank refuse to fit. yes they are cheaper, but they are also crap and in my opinion dangerous.

 

[Geordie Spark]

I keep coming across CU's where the standard is well below par, you need muscles like 'Garth' to get the screws in the neutral and earth bars to tighten. The builder keeps coming back with units from the 'sheds' which I now point blank refuse to fit. yes they are cheaper, but they are also crap and in my opinion dangerous.

It's not only the thread profiles that are wrong and out of tolerance, the material is crap too and the heads are misshapen so no matter how good your screwdriver is it still doesn't fit the screw head properly!!

Your Torque Screwdriver will NEVER make up for that!!

 

[davesparks]

So going back to the regulation. They( the manufacturer) has stated in their instructions/data a recommended Torque which as yourself has just confirmed and so not following that recommendation which they have stated is not following the instructions which is written in black and white on the data sheet is technically breaking a "regulation." Like the whole IEE wiring regulations, it's not law to follow them but against the law if you don't. Some questions are better off not asked/answered, but that's what they'll say if (Unfortunately and hope it never does) it went to court. These days it's all about covering your backside in our world and pass the blame back to the manufacturer.

Yes a recommended torque, not a specified torque. There is no obligation to follow that recommendation. A tradesman will be able to make his own assessment of how tight a termination needs to be.

It is not against the law of you don't follow the IEE regulations and you cannot be prosecuted directly for failing to comply with them. They are referenced in some legal documents and can be used to support a case against you.

 

[R G]

We can only hope that the poorly installed threaded screws and bars are rectified and better quality parts within the boards to at least attempt to use a torque driver , so it seems they want to make the boards fire proof to mask the quality of them ....LOL,,,,,

 

[jamie-spark]

What ever happened to, you know that it's tight enough. Is this the Electrical Trainee bull****

 

[Guest666]

MCB torque settings are one thing. But the literature that comes with the MCB does not know the cable that you are using. A torque setting for a 10mm cable may well damage a 1.5mm. Use your knowledge and skill to determine if the cable is tight enough and take your torque driver back. Just because you tightened with a torque driver does not mean that all responsibility is given up by you when it comes to the quality of the termination.

 

[enlighting]

I was at a NAPIT seminar this evening, a chap from the IET was also there to enlighten us and this matter was discussed.

It would appear in the eyes of NAPIT and the IET that the regulation stating manufacturers instructions must be followed does in fact require the use of a torque driver on not only your cable terminations but the checking of factory terminations as well. I m pretty sure that not all manufacturers instructions include torque settings, for example the Cheaper brands like CPN and the God awful CHINT boards (I do plan on verifying this).

As is often the case this is a regulation written for an ideal word and IMO leaves the electrician exposed to potential prosecution. But maybe I'm just being synical.

As it happens I do own a torque driver and use it whenever I discover manufacturers indicated settings, for example the Schneider (Merlin Gerin) breakers and boards have the NM requirement printed on them. I feel that if things are moving in the direction of electricians being required to install to precise torque settings all manufacturers should display there torque settings on the breakers themselves not buried in a leaflet or in some cases listed on a website.

 

[shanky887614]

I was at a NAPIT seminar this evening, a chap from the IET was also there to enlighten us and this matter was discussed.

It would appear in the eyes of NAPIT and the IET that the regulation stating manufacturers instructions must be followed does in fact require the use of a torque driver on not only your cable terminations but the checking of factory terminations as well. I m pretty sure that not all manufacturers instructions include torque settings, for example the Cheaper brands like CPN and the God awful CHINT boards (I do plan on verifying this).

As is often the case this is a regulation written for an ideal word and IMO leaves the electrician exposed to potential prosecution. But maybe I'm just being synical.

As it happens I do own a torque driver and use it whenever I discover manufacturers indicated settings, for example the Schneider (Merlin Gerin) breakers and boards have the NM requirement printed on them. I feel that if things are moving in the direction of electricians being required to install to precise torque settings all manufacturers should display there torque settings on the breakers themselves not buried in a leaflet or in some cases listed on a website.

the new regs say to take into account.

i took the recommend nm into acount your honor but the cables were still loose so i tightened them up properly lol

 

[Andy78]

I was at a NAPIT seminar this evening, a chap from the IET was also there to enlighten us and this matter was discussed.

It would appear in the eyes of NAPIT and the IET that the regulation stating manufacturers instructions must be followed does in fact require the use of a torque driver on not only your cable terminations but the checking of factory terminations as well. I m pretty sure that not all manufacturers instructions include torque settings, for example the Cheaper brands like CPN and the God awful CHINT boards (I do plan on verifying this).

As is often the case this is a regulation written for an ideal word and IMO leaves the electrician exposed to potential prosecution. But maybe I'm just being synical.

As it happens I do own a torque driver and use it whenever I discover manufacturers indicated settings, for example the Schneider (Merlin Gerin) breakers and boards have the NM requirement printed on them. I feel that if things are moving in the direction of electricians being required to install to precise torque settings all manufacturers should display there torque settings on the breakers themselves not buried in a leaflet or in some cases listed on a website.

Good job this reg will be no more in a couple of weeks then......

 

[enlighting]

the new regs say to take into account.

i took the recommend nm into acount your honor but the cables were still loose so i tightened them up properly lol

Ha ha! Yes im with you there!

I have not read the reg in Am 3 yet as im still saving my pennnies to pay for yet another set of Regs books ��

 

[shanky887614]

Ha ha! Yes im with you there!

I have not read the reg in Am 3 yet as im still saving my pennnies to pay for yet another set of Regs books ��

im not buying the guidance notes till i either go self employed or the 18th comes out


why should we have to buy upto 8gn books every amendment. thats a lot of money

 

[enlighting]

I assume they were reffering to the ammended regulation

 

[Andy78]

im not buying the guidance notes till i either go self employed or the 18th comes out

I wouldn't either seeing as they can't be bothered to print them correctly.

 

[enlighting]

I wouldn't either seeing as they can't be bothered to print them correctly.

Ha ha yes apparently a number of misprints "slipped through the net due to the software we use" very shoddy indeed

 

[Andy78]

I assume they were reffering to the ammended regulation

From the IET website, although I do not have the yellow book to verify that this is the exact wording that made it into AMD3.

Regulation 134.1.1 has been changed from:
"Good workmanship by competent persons or persons under their supervision and proper materials shall be used in the erection of the electrical installation. Electrical equipment shall be installed in accordance with the instructions provided by the manufacturer of the equipment."
to:
"Good workmanship by skilled (electrically) or instructed (electrically) persons and proper materials shall be used in the erection of the electrical installation. The installation of electrical equipment shall take account of manufacturers’ instructions."

 

[enlighting]

From the IET website, although I do not have the yellow book to verify that this is the exact wording that made it into AMD3.

Regulation 134.1.1 has been changed from:
"Good workmanship by competent persons or persons under their supervision and proper materials shall be used in the erection of the electrical installation. Electrical equipment shall be installed in accordance with the instructions provided by the manufacturer of the equipment."
to:
"Good workmanship by skilled (electrically) or instructed (electrically) persons and proper materials shall be used in the erection of the electrical installation. The installation of electrical equipment shall take account of manufacturers’ instructions."

Looks like they have managed to make it into even more of a grey area!

 

[shanky887614]

Looks like they have managed to make it into even more of a grey area!

thats exactly the same as in my byb

 

[Andy78]

Looks like they have managed to make it into even more of a grey area!

No it's actually a good thing. It takes away the requirement to follow instructions blindly when the instructions for some pieces of equipment are unsuitable to be followed. Examples would be where a range of cookers of different ratings are all given a blanket instruction to suit the highest rated in the range, or where a product sold European wide has instructions that go against our wiring regs.

There still is and was a reg that covers the correct selection of equipment for purpose, use, environment etc that states to take account of instructions, but the installer is not always the same fella as does the selection of equipment.

 

[enlighting]

Thats a fair point.

I wont be loosing any sleep over my traditionaly hand tightend installs

 

[derbylad]

Difference being Torque screwdrivers/ torque setting screws etc is now regulations.

torque screwdrivers are for the 5 week wonders who need to be taught how to suck eggs

 

[Eddiesparks]

Torque recommendations- impact driver for 10 seconds. Good luck you may not have a board left after that

 

[Pete999]

NICEIC ask to see your torque screwdriver during inspection. I could rub some mud on it and make it looked used. A strong wrist and experience is all you need to do up an MCB, luckily I have both (No jokes about strong wrists please)

That's the NICEIC rules not the BS 7671 Regulations, do Stroma, Elecsa and the rest of the scams have the same rule?

 

[uksparks]

I have a torque screwdriver and I use it on breakers etc but not the earth and neutral bars, it states in the manufacturers data that it needs to be 2.5Nm or something, but you will find if you tighten a gaged board up to what it says with say a 1mm conductor it snaps it and an MK board it doesn't because the bottom of the screw is not as sharp.

just use common sense and experience.