Consumer unit upgraded - no earth continuity question?

[Ccx295]

hi all,

I had my consumer unit upgraded by an eletrician and the test on the main socket circuit revealed their is a break somewhere on the earth wire so no continuity.

The eletrician had a quick look around and roughly located where it could be (somewhere under the floorboards between certain plugs) but decided that it would be a better option to downgrade the mcb to a 16amp instead of a 32amp and if we have any tripping issues we can separate the kitchen circuit so that reduces the load on the main circuit.
We are also lucky in that a lot of the kitchen appliances already run on a separate circuit so we may get away with the 16amp anyway.

My only issue is leaving the break, he assures me that it is safe and no real gain in finding the break and money would better spent on adding a new circuit for the kitchen if it is required.

Is this the best way to go in this situation?

Thanks

 

[telectrix]

all depends. if the break means just that the cpc is not a continuous ring but all sockets have a cpc, then it's not a huge problem. if, however, 1 or more sockets have no cpc (earth) connection, then that is dangerous and requires urgent/immediate remedy.

 

[Toneyz]

Reading your post has the electrician split the socket ring circuit in the kitchen into two seperate 16A radial circuits?

 

[telectrix]

Reading your post has the electrician split the socket ring circuit in the kitchen into two seperate 16A radial circuits?

if not, then i fail to see what benefit a 16A MCB can provide, other than increasing the max. value of Zs.

 

[Ccx295]

all depends. if the break means just that the cpc is not a continuous ring but all sockets have a cpc, then it's not a huge problem. if, however, 1 or more sockets have no cpc (earth) connection, then that is dangerous and requires urgent/immediate remedy.

I'm sure he did say all sockets are earthed although I'm not sure how he would have tested that. I'll probably give them a call tomorrow to find out all the details.

 

[Ccx295]

Reading your post has the electrician split the socket ring circuit in the kitchen into two seperate 16A radial circuits?

He hasn't actually done that yet, only if it is required. I assume he wants to wire in a new circuit into the kitchen so that can take some of the load.

We have a utility room which has its own circuit so the washing machine, fridge, clothes dryer all come of that.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

if not, then i fail to see what benefit a 16A MCB can provide, other than increasing the max. value of Zs.

Would also have to disconnect the live conductors between the sockets either side of the point where the break in the CPC has been found.

 

[Madocks]

Was the original installer a member of a scheme and did he provide paperwork?

 

[telectrix]

Would also have to disconnect the live conductors between the sockets either side of the point where the break in the CPC has been found.

then he'd have to make 2 separate radials.

 

[Pete999]

I'm sure he did say all sockets are earthed although I'm not sure how he would have tested that. I'll probably give them a call tomorrow to find out all the details.

No certificate then?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

then he'd have to make 2 separate radials.

Only if they are protected by 2 separate MCBs.
Otherwise it’s a single radial with two legs.

 

[telectrix]

yes, that's what i meant. 2 radials each on a 16A MCB.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

yes, that's what i meant. 2 radials each on a 16A MCB.

I might go with a 20A MCB, instead of 16A.

 

[Ccx295]

Was the original installer a member of a scheme and did he provide paperwork?

Yes they are a member of the NICEIC and I'am waiting on the certificates (The job was done at the end of last week so I am not worried about that)

 

[Ccx295]

No certificate then?

I am getting one (waiting on it)
Will this show all sockets are safe then?

Does the test need to be done physically on all sockets in the circuit or can it be done from the consumer unit?

 

[Pete999]

Yes they are a member of the NICEIC and I'am waiting on the certificates (The job was done at the end of last week so I am not worried about that)

A certificate IS partof the works, therfore payment should not be made until certificate has been issued, in my opinion.

 

[Ccx295]

A certificate IS partof the works, therfore payment should not be made until certificate has been issued, in my opinion.

Thanks, should this be the case for both the installation certificate and part p?

 

[Christopher Bernard]

The cert could be posted, the notification will be a small piece of paper saying something like:

Install a replacement consumer unit
House Dwelling

 

[Des 56]

Being on the job they have a much better understanding of the particular installation than opinions from afar

Certification, although necessary for all installation work, it actually means little with regard the standard of the work carried out

Maybe be a little positive and give a little trust,at least they seem to know what they are doing

 

[Pete999]

I am getting one (waiting on it)
Will this show all sockets are safe then?

Does the test need to be done physically on all sockets in the circuit or can it be done from the consumer unit?

If the work you employed the Electrician for, was swap the consumers unit, thats what the (EIC) Electrical Installation Certificate will show.
An (EICR) Electrical Installation Condition Report on the other hand, is advisable prior to changing a CU, to highlight any problems like the one he encountered with your sockets.
What prompted him to check the sockets, normal procedure, if an EICR is not requested would be to do a few tests to ensure the RCDs on the new CU does not trip unnecessarily.

 

[Ccx295]

Being on the job they have a much better understanding of the particular installation than opinions from afar

Certification, although necessary for all installation work, it actually means little with regard the standard of the work carried out

Maybe be a little positive and give a little trust,at least they seem to know what they are doing

Thanks for the advice.

I do trust completely trust their advice (The guy who installed the unit was brilliant) I was just interested to have a second opinion on what other people thoughts were on the best route to take going forward but now I know as long as each plug has been tested then their is no issue with leaving the break in the circuit.

 

[telectrix]

each socket needs to be tested to confirm presence of cpc.

 

[Pete999]

Thanks for the advice.

I do trust completely trust their advice (The guy who installed the unit was brilliant) I was just interested to have a second opinion on what other people thoughts were on the best route to take going forward but now I know as long as each plug has been tested then their is no issue with leaving the break in the circuit.

Not knowing how the Electrician dealt with the break in the cable, other than downgrading the MCB it's hard to tlee, but as Telectrix says each socket needs to be tested to confirm the presence of a cpc. Did he isolate the damaged cable completely?

 

[Madocks]

To be honest, if hes gone to the hassle of identifying where the break is, sorted 2 radials @16 and is part of NIC then it should be good.

Perhaps email asking if he split the ring so you have it in writing whats been done.

 

[telectrix]

could be painful, having your ring split.

 

[Ccx295]

each socket needs to be tested to confirm presence of cpc.

I am not sure if this has been done..

 

[Toneyz]

Well as Des56 has said let us look on the positive side they have had a consumer unit upgrade which with RCD protection for the sockets and the installation has been left in a safer condition than before.If there is a break in the cpc in the ring final circuit what is the Zs at the highest points this may be still under the max Zs for the protective device.Personally, I don't like sockets in a room being fed from different circuits but that's only an opinion. Has the electrician taken off the socket front plates to see if it is as simple as a cpc that has come out? If not it could be a joint somewhere.

 

[ruston]

Presumably he has already had the socket fronts off to see if all the earths were connected properly.
I would of thought that he would of checked the end to end continuity before he carried out the board change though.

 

[Octopus]

I would say that until said spark has conclusively identified the location of the fault, and corrective work has been undertaken, the job is not complete, and the bill is increasing......

This is the most common fault in houses

 

[Ccx295]

Not knowing how the Electrician dealt with the break in the cable, other than downgrading the MCB it's hard to tlee, but as Telectrix says each socket needs to be tested to confirm the presence of a cpc. Did he isolate the damaged cable completely?

I don't think he completely tracked it down, He knew at which point the socket was showing the issue but from there he mentioned having to remove floorboards.
The only other thing he mentioned was downgrading the MCB. I guess I should get on the phone to them tomorrow to find out the complete facts

 

[Ccx295]

Presumably he has already had the socket fronts off to see if all the earths were connected properly.
I would of thought that he would of checked the end to end continuity before he carried out the board change though.

I was expecting to be told about any issues before the change

 

[ruston]

I was expecting to be told about any issues before the change

So would I to be fair.

Ps. The outcome would be the same though . It would still of needed attention.

 

[telectrix]

you raise the blade, you make the change, you rearrange me till i'm sane.

 

[Pete999]

I don't think he completely tracked it down, He knew at which point the socket was showing the issue but from there he mentioned having to remove floorboards.
The only other thing he mentioned was downgrading the MCB. I guess I should get on the phone to them tomorrow to find out the complete facts

I would!!

 

[Wilko]

Hi - My preference is to find the fault and replace the cable. But if that's uneconomic then by all means use the circuit in a new configuration but I would disconnect the damaged section, as per @spinlondon in post #7. I do this because I know it's been damaged somehow and it might get worse

 

[davesparks]

A certificate IS partof the works, therfore payment should not be made until certificate has been issued, in my opinion.

If it is specified prior to commencement of the works that certificates will be issued after payment is received then he won’t get it until he pays.

I always do this with new or one-off customers and it has helped me to get the money out of non-payers

 

[Pete999]

If it is specified prior to commencement of the works that certificates will be issued after payment is received then he won’t get it until he pays.

I always do this with new or one-off customers and it has helped me to get the money out of non-payers

Agree it's away of getting payed Dave, but is it a legitimate method, more importantly is it legal to use this method of chasing payment, after all the customer could argue that, infact you haven't completed until you issue a cert, wouldn't like to argue that in a court of law, you do the work, part of that work is certification, sorry I have to disagree withholding the certificate until payment is, in my opinion a bad move, no offence intended.

 

[davesparks]

Agree it's away of getting payed Dave, but is it a legitimate method, more importantly is it legal to use this method of chasing payment, after all the customer could argue that, infact you haven't completed until you issue a cert, wouldn't like to argue that in a court of law, you do the work, part of that work is certification, sorry I have to disagree withholding the certificate until payment is, in my opinion a bad move, no offence intended.

Originally I was advised to do it by an NICEIC assessor on an annual visit when I was a qualified supervisor, and I’ve done it ever since.

I don’t see why it shouldn’t be legitimate if it is made clear in the written contract or terms and conditions before the work starts.
I don’t spring it on customers at the end of the job as a surprise, I make them fully aware before I start.

Also I include inspection, testing and issuing the certificate as a separate line on my quotes (for a nominal sum), so I can, and have on occasion, invoice for everything but this item and get the bulk of the job paid before issuing the certificate.

 

[Toneyz]

Originally I was advised to do it by an NICEIC assessor on an annual visit when I was a qualified supervisor, and I’ve done it ever since.

I don’t see why it shouldn’t be legitimate if it is made clear in the written contract or terms and conditions before the work starts.
I don’t spring it on customers at the end of the job as a surprise, I make them fully aware before I start.

Also I include inspection, testing and issuing the certificate as a separate line on my quotes (for a nominal sum), so I can, and have on occasion, invoice for everything but this item and get the bulk of the job paid before issuing the certificate.

That is completely the opposite what they said when my previous boss used to keep the cert back until payment and I think it was a question put to them in their connections magazine. So what you are saying is if I am right is they pay for the work and could pay for the cert later?

 

[Pete999]

That is completely the opposite what they said when my previous boss used to keep the cert back until payment and I think it was a question put to them in their connections magazine. So what you are saying is if I am right is they pay for the work and could pay for the cert later?

No the certificate IS part part of the work withholding the certificate until payment. is in my book wrong, like I said in my ealier post would hate to argue this point in a court of law.

 

[Toneyz]

No the certificate IS part pf the work withholding the certificate until payment. is in my book wrong, like I said in my earlier post would hate to argue this point in a court of law.

I agree with you, Pete.

 

[Pete999]

I agree with you, Pete.

Thanks Ant like an MOT not going to pay until I get a cert ludicrous in my book sorry if I have offended anyone.

 

[Rpa07]

In my mind, getting paid is part of the work - if payment is on time and not with held then a timely certificate before payment or after payment is not an issue. This is after all a two way street. We do the work and deserve to get paid. And that’s my opinion.

 

[davesparks]

No the certificate IS part part of the work withholding the certificate until payment. is in my book wrong, like I said in my ealier post would hate to argue this point in a court of law.

If you’ve got a contract which states that the certicate will be issued after receiving payment then what’s the issue?

 

[davesparks]

So what you are saying is if I am right is they pay for the work and could pay for the cert later?

No I’m saying that it’s like any other stage of the work. You get paid for each stage of the job,

 

[Octopus]

I was expecting to be told about any issues before the change

Did you pay said sparky to do a full inspection prior to the change?

 

[Pete999]

No I’m saying that it’s like any other stage of the work. You get paid for each stage of the job,

If that's the signed agreement then yes I agree, otherwise?????

 

[Octopus]

No the certificate IS part part of the work withholding the certificate until payment. is in my book wrong, like I said in my ealier post would hate to argue this point in a court of law.

Disagree.

If the spark states on the estimate or quote that the Certificate will be provided once payment has been received, and the customer goes ahead on this basis then thats whats been agreed.

If said spark states nothing on the estimate / quote then I would expect the certificate to be provided with the invoice.

As for what BS 7671 suggests - thats purely guidance...

 

[davesparks]

No the certificate IS part part of the work withholding the certificate until payment. is in my book wrong, like I said in my ealier post would hate to argue this point in a court of law.

Ive never been challenged on this legally, but I have got my money on a job where other trades never got theirs.

 

[Pete999]

Disagree.

If the spark states on the estimate or quote that the Certificate will be provided once payment has been received, and the customer goes ahead on this basis then thats whats been agreed.

If said spark states nothing on the estimate / quote then I would expect the certificate to be provided with the invoice.

As for what BS 7671 suggests - thats purely guidance...

Agreed but a Judge would use BS7671 as a guidance aid, wouldn't He/She, but as said before if stage payments have been agreed by both parties, no arguments isthere.

Ive never been challenged on this legally, but I have got my money on a job where other trades never got theirs.

Thatsbecause other trades can't hold their client to ransom over a certificate.