Class 2 light fitting

[Bluetit]

Hi all,

Just been to fit some lights for a customer in a couple of bathrooms. Customer supplied the fittings.
Turned up unboxed etc. fitting states it is class 2 on the packaging, as well as in the instruction manual repeatedly. Including prohibiting fitting an earth.
Attached are photos of said fitting. Single insulated cables grommeted out the metallic back (with incredibly limited scope to make the connections, or accommodate the cable from the ceiling). Fitting is entirely metal other than the "lens", with metal studs, a metallic ring that affixes to said studs retaining the lens. I'm not losing the plot, this is categorically not a class 2 double insulated fitting, right?!

Discussed with the customer and agreed I would supply suitable fittings and return to fit when I also complete their outside lights.

 

[Hakuhou]

Including prohibiting fitting an earth.

Honest question, when would this ever be a good/required thing?
Have always equated, no earth = bad.

 

[littlespark]

It is class II by design…. Now in practice sense, that means tiny little connection box… but by design, it is class II

The small box will have some for of strain relief, and in the event of a cable becoming loose… it’s only going to touch plastic. Hence “double insulated”

The brown and blue wires going to the fitting look like reinforced insulation… much tougher than regular PVC insulation… so no dangers there.

I can’t see the connections into the lampholder… but again, I suspect there’s cable grip of some sort, and it’s of plastic construction.

It’s only the metal plate of the fitting that introduces any danger… and that is solved by specifically telling you not to connect to the cpc of the supply….. where an unknown fault may have introduced a voltage potential to that cpc.
They don’t want their fitting to be at that potential where a possibly wet human being in a bathroom may be able to touch it.


The designers of the fitting cannot guarantee that rcd protection is in place, or if there’s even a cpc present…. So they design their products to class II to cover any eventuality.

Looking at end of life of products… metal can be recycled, plastic can’t….. so they’re also designing recyclability into the product.


In summery… the design is class II, but in practicality of actually working on it… PITA.

 

[westward10]

Junk, refuse to fit them.

 

[Bluetit]

It is class II by design…. Now in practice sense, that means tiny little connection box… but by design, it is class II

The small box will have some for of strain relief, and in the event of a cable becoming loose… it’s only going to touch plastic. Hence “double insulated”

The brown and blue wires going to the fitting look like reinforced insulation… much tougher than regular PVC insulation… so no dangers there.

I can’t see the connections into the lampholder… but again, I suspect there’s cable grip of some sort, and it’s of plastic construction.

It’s only the metal plate of the fitting that introduces any danger… and that is solved by specifically telling you not to connect to the cpc of the supply….. where an unknown fault may have introduced a voltage potential to that cpc.
They don’t want their fitting to be at that potential where a possibly wet human being in a bathroom may be able to touch it.


The designers of the fitting cannot guarantee that rcd protection is in place, or if there’s even a cpc present…. So they design their products to class II to cover any eventuality.

Looking at end of life of products… metal can be recycled, plastic can’t….. so they’re also designing recyclability into the product.


In summery… the design is class II, but in practicality of actually working on it… PITA

Many thanks, it was just the singles dangling about that had me questioning it, but of course I was overlooking reinforced insulation being acceptable.
All for recyclable products, and appreciate why a manufacturer wants class 2 ratings, was just slightly confused as to how this was achieving that.

Junk, refuse to fit them.

Have agreed to supply a more spark friendly fixed LED unit. Client was very understanding.

 

[Alla Musica]

It’s only the metal plate of the fitting that introduces any danger… and that is solved by specifically telling you not to connect to the cpc of the supply….. where an unknown fault may have introduced a voltage potential to that cpc.
They don’t want their fitting to be at that potential where a possibly wet human being in a bathroom may be able to touch it.

There are many Class I IP65 GU10 downlights out there across the UK, which all must be earthed regardless where they're fitted. Since the aforementioned ceiling fixture appears to be in a similar situation, do we really have to worry about grounding faults at all? (Please point out if I'm wrong though)

 

[mainline]

Playing devil's advocate.

Class 2 shouldn't really be fitted in a dwelling, class 1 would be better.

 

[Alla Musica]

Playing the devil's advocate.

Class 2 shouldn't really be fitted in a dwelling, class 1 would be better.

It's really disappointing that many IKEA portable fittings in the UK are Class II unearthed.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Class 2 shouldn't really be fitted in a dwelling,

I don't think there's any problem using class 2's in dwellings. I gather we can't use double/reinforced insulation as the sole protective measure for a circuit in dwellings, however, 411.1 permits class 2's when using ADS as the protective measure.

 

[mainline]

I don't think there's any problem using class 2's in dwellings. I gather we can't use double/reinforced insulation as the sole protective measure for a circuit in dwellings, however, 411.1 permits class 2's when using ADS as the protective measure.

Can ADS be provided in the absence of a cpc. ?

Also:
412.1.2 Where this protective measure is to be used as the sole protective measure (i.e. where a whole
installation or circuit is intended to consist entirely of equipment with double insulation or reinforced insulation),
it shall be verified that effective measures, for example by adequate supervision.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

z

Can ADS be provided in the absence of a cpc. ?

Also:
412.1.2 Where this protective measure is to be used as the sole protective measure (i.e. where a whole
installation or circuit is intended to consist entirely of equipment with double insulation or reinforced insulation),
it shall be verified that effective measures, for example by adequate supervision.

We may be at cross purposes. 411.1 should clarify my point:

411 PROTECTIVE MEASURE: AUTOMATIC DISCONNECTION OF SUPPLY
411.1 General
...
Where this protective measure is applied, Class II equipment may also be used.

 

[littlespark]

No class 2 in dwellings?

how many appliances or equipment in a dwelling are class 2 and are vastly more likely to be touched than a fitting screwed to the ceiling.


Just to clarify… I’m not saying everything has to be class 2…. Nor am I suggesting that this particular manufacturer only makes class 2 fittings.
Class 1 or class 2, they are designed and manufactured to industry standards, and if sold in UK…. They will be safe and fit for purpose…. If installed correctly according to manufacturers instructions.

 

[mainline]

No class 2 in dwellings?

I didn't actually say No class 2 in dwellings.

how many appliances or equipment in a dwelling are class 2 and are vastly more likely to be touched than a fitting screwed to the ceiling.

I wonder how many have fitted class 2 because of the lack of a cpc and would this be compliant ?

 

[mainline]

We may be at cross purposes. 411.1 should clarify my point:

411 PROTECTIVE MEASURE: AUTOMATIC DISCONNECTION OF SUPPLY
411.1 General
...
Where this protective measure is applied, Class II equipment may also be used.

Yes, my point was 412.1.2 Where this protective measure is to be used as the sole protective measure.

 

[brianmoooore]

It's a recognised reputable brand, not some random Amazon rubbish.

 

[Hakuhou]

Is this because of the lack of cpc?

 

[Bluetit]

Is this because of the lack of cpc?

Essentially yes, I was questioning it because class 2 is, in my experience referred to as double insulated, the symbol is a square within a square..
This at a glance, to me, being an unearthed fitting with exposed conductive parts and single insulated cables hanging out of the back of it seems like a class 1 fitting, and a fairly poorly designed one at that. Were it class 1 it would need a CPC to earth the exposed metal.

As in the replies this is likely reinforced insulation.

Personally, reputable brand and reinforced insulation or not I'm not a fan of it. Especially when you can get something aesthetically similar with a hinged LED panel, push fit connectors internally and a grommeted entry for the t&e for similar cost.

 

[brianmoooore]

If I had to fit these, I think I'd fit a fast fix circular box into the ceiling above it, directly above the cable entry, and connect to the T&E inside that.

 

[westward10]

Saxby were a reputable brand seems like they are now just badging junk from China.

 

[Hakuhou]

solved by specifically telling you not to connect to the cpc of the supply….. where an unknown fault may have introduced a voltage potential to that cpc.

I see. So the view is that the risk of a fault energizing the cpc -> appliance outweighs the risk of a fault in the fitting energizing the small metal plate.

 

[littlespark]

I see. So the view is that the risk of a fault energizing the cpc -> appliance outweighs the risk of a fault in the fitting energizing the small metal plate.

If properly designed to class 2 requirements, the risk of a fault from the fitting is (should be!) minimised.


Just because something is “made in China” does not necessarily make it low quality….

 

[mainline]

Just because something is “made in China” does not necessarily make it low quality….

Chances are that it will be, though.

The Chinese will make what the customer asks for. You want cheap crap, they'll make you cheap crap. You want quality, they can do that too, but it'll cost you. Unfortunately, most people put cheapness over quality and that's why the markets are flooded with this stuff

 

[mainline]

It's a recognised reputable brand, not some random Amazon rubbish.

Predominantly in southern China and India.

You only have to look at it to see its rubbish.

 

[westward10]

I wonder if that metal tab sticking up from the back of the lampholder is actually an earth terminal. Some plastic holders had an earth terminal fitted.

 

[mainline]

I wonder if that metal tab sticking up from the back of the lampholder is actually an earth terminal. Some plastic holders had an earth terminal fitted.

The metal tab looks to be connected to the case.

 

[westward10]

The metal tab looks to be connected to the case.

That's how they were an L shaped bracket that held the holder and fixed to the lamp base and it had a poor quality earthing point at the top. Like this.

 

[mainline]

That's how they were an L shaped bracket that held the holder and fixed to the lamp base and it had a poor quality earthing point at the top.

 

[mainline]

The designers of the fitting cannot guarantee that rcd protection is in place, or if there’s even a cpc present…. So they design their products to class II to cover any eventuality.

It has to have those to be compliant.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Crikey, that's a pretty rough design.
Well done for refusing to fit it. Basic insulation shoved under the floorboards! A small nick on the basic insulation and it comes into contact with a non earthed piece of metal... scary design.
I wonder how it can have a CE marking? I know nothing regarding the CE standards, but they can't be very high if this product meets them.

 

[littlespark]

Crikey, that's a pretty rough design.
Well done for refusing to fit it. Basic insulation shoved under the floorboards! A small nick on the basic insulation and it comes into contact with a non earthed piece of metal... scary design.
I wonder how it can have a CE marking? I know nothing regarding the CE standards, but they can't be very high if this product meets them.

Not basic insulation. Looks like reinforced insulation.
Used on some GU10 lampholders, floating freely in a ceiling void