EICR Code for no main earth

[mamba]

Throw this out there what code would you put down on a EICR report where "There is no Main Earth to the installation??

 

[D Skelton]

C2 is the only code this situation warrants

 

[Silly Sausage]

Throw this out there what code would you put down on a EICR report where "There is no Main Earth to the installation??

If you mean the Main Earth Conductor? I found one missing on a Periodic once at a Pharmacy in Bradford, so I just fitted one and moved on. I was on wages at the time!

 

[mamba]

Yep I had day with field engineer as a QS and his words exactly only C2 however.... page 118 NICEIC Inspect and test says it is a C1 ??? contradiction again I ask my lord...

 

[spark 68]

Yep I had day with field engineer as a QS and his words exactly only C2 however.... page 118 NICEIC Inspect and test says it is a C1 ??? contradiction again I ask my lord...

It is not an immediate Danger, it would take a second fault (L to E) to become so, hence a C2 potentially dangerous, Niccy don't write the rules they just like to think they do.

 

[danzor]

Contradiction to what? We are trained to BS7671 not the NICEIC toilet paper

 

[telectrix]

i'd agree with a C2 as it would require a fault ( live part to exposed part ) to present a danger.

 

[Octopus]

was the installation relying on the water main as its earth?

 

[nickblake]

It all depends on the circumstances No main earth not a good one most situations it would be a C2 i have come across a similar situation where there was an induced voltage of 85 volts in that scenario i would give it a C1

 

[GT1]

Yep ditto the above. Quite often find induced voltages of that size.. Nowhere to go without the main bond..!

 

[D Skelton]

Induced voltages of up to 85?! Really?

Capacitively coupled phantom voltage maybe, but not induced.

 

[GT1]

haha. I'll bow to your superior knowledge of the physics and just agree. !

 

[Silly Sausage]

Another way of looking at it...is that it is a very high impedance voltage source.
So the reading depends on the input impedance of the test voltmeter.
Also, why it it doesn't present a shock hazard.

 

[uksparks]

Yes C2 because C1 is for immediate dangers, where there is no earth it's only a C2 as its 'potentially dangerous'.

 

[NickD]

C2 and absolutely go to town on it in the Summary and Observations. If it were me, I think I'd do some sort of covering letter or note to the person ordering the report.

 

[Eddiesparks]

Esc do a good best practice guide. This is, i think, an example of a definite C2. Also waterpipe used as ME is a c2 too.

 

[Megavolt]

Induced voltages of up to 85?! Really?

Capacitively coupled phantom voltage maybe, but not induced.

D Skelton could you explain that one to me so I can get my head round it please.

 

[D Skelton]

You can't induce meaningful voltages into a conductor without a large number of turns in a coil and a fast rate of change in magnetic flux. Capacative coupling is the most common form of phantom voltages in conductors and they can be picked up using high impedance digital multimeters. A low impedance analogue multimeter will confirm the presence of a phantom voltage as they will not register a result.

Capacative coupling works in the same way a capacitor works, with the insulation between conductors acting as a dialectric.

A phantom voltage picked up by a digital multimeter is harmless.

 

[NickD]

Capacative coupling is the most common form of phantom voltages in conductors and they can be picked up using high impedance digital multimeters. A low impedance analogue multimeter will confirm the presence of a phantom voltage as they will not register a result.

Or a suitable highish-but-not-too-high load added between your digital meter probes achieves the same effect, i.e. a load path causing the capacitance to discharge and the phantom voltage to collapse. Someone said Fluke used to sell one.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Throw this out there what code would you put down on a EICR report where "There is no Main Earth to the installation??

is this some sort of homework?

caus if it aint...and your coming in here to ask what is really an open & shut scenario...like what code to be alotting this...then do you really think you should be carrying out ECRs?

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Yes C2 because C1 is for immediate dangers, where there is no earth it's only a C2 as its 'potentially dangerous'.

dangerous under fault conditions.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Esc do a good best practice guide. This is, i think, an example of a definite C2. Also waterpipe used as ME is a c2 too.

and if it was a private borehole?

 

[GLENNSPARK]

C2 and absolutely go to town on it in the Summary and Observations. If it were me, I think I'd do some sort of covering letter or note to the person ordering the report.

make notes as required....nothing more...nothing less..

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Yep ditto the above. Quite often find induced voltages of that size.. Nowhere to go without the main bond..!

main earthing

 

[GLENNSPARK]

C2 and absolutely go to town on it in the Summary and Observations. If it were me, I think I'd do some sort of covering letter or note to the person ordering the report.

what do you think the observations box is for Nick?

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Yep I had day with field engineer as a QS and his words exactly only C2 however.... page 118 NICEIC Inspect and test says it is a C1 ??? contradiction again I ask my lord...

well

you can rest assured that this is turd...

its a 2...not an NIC No.2...

 

[NickD]

what do you think the observations box is for Nick?

I think it's for being buried in a long, detailed form full of small print, numbers and technical detail which will have made the average non-technical reader think it's indecipherable and not meant to be read by them and give up somewhere around the top of page 2.

 

[davesparks]

That's why you go through the report with them and explain it to them isn't it?

 

[NickD]

That's why you go through the report with them and explain it to them isn't it?

Often they're wary and think you're just looking for work. A missing earth conductor I would want them to know I'm not messing. GN3 p.108 para.8 says an unrectified C1 should be notified urgently in writing; in the same vein I'd consider taking the personal decision to extend that to an extremely serious C2. Nothing says I can't, and it is difficult to prove a conversation took place. Something awful could easily happen with a missing earth conductor. It might be useful to be able to demonstrate later you took every reasonable step to draw their attention to the seriousness of the potential danger. Courts don't look favourably on important stuff buried in detail. I'm just risk averse; I can see why I'd do it. If you can't see why you'd do it, don't.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Often they're wary and think you're just looking for work. A missing earth conductor I would want them to know I'm not messing. GN3 p.108 para.8 says an unrectified C1 should be notified urgently in writing; in the same vein I'd consider taking the personal decision to extend that to an extremely serious C2. Nothing says I can't, and it is difficult to prove a conversation took place. Something awful could easily happen with a missing earth conductor. It might be useful to be able to demonstrate later you took every reasonable step to draw their attention to the seriousness of the potential danger. Courts don't look favourably on important stuff buried in detail. I'm just risk averse; I can see why I'd do it. If you can't see why you'd do it, don't.

ever heard of a danger notice Nick?

clearly not...

 

[wozz]

Im the first person (if i can) to jump all over over zealous coding but id be putting a C1 for this regardless of needing more faults or anything, if my house had no MEC id being strolling to the garage to get some 16mm to fit one straight away without considering anything else and my coding would reflect this.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Im the first person (if i can) to jump all over over zealous coding but id be putting a C1 for this regardless of needing more faults or anything, if my house had no MEC id being strolling to the garage to get some 16mm to fit one straight away without considering anything else and my coding would reflect this.

what for?

its a 2....

 

[wozz]

i thought i had explained myself?

 

[D Skelton]

Im the first person (if i can) to jump all over over zealous coding but id be putting a C1 for this regardless of needing more faults or anything, if my house had no MEC id being strolling to the garage to get some 16mm to fit one straight away without considering anything else and my coding would reflect this.

Then you'd be wrong. You'd devalue the meaning of a real C1.

This is black and white coding. Anything other than a C2 would be ridiculous and potentially invalidate a report.

You're not one of these 'C1 no RCD protection in bathrooms' types are you?

 

[wozz]

hahaha, now now play nice i havnt started questioning your abilities have I.

black and white? whos black and white?

can you explain how I can code something different to you can invalidate the report?

I believe the MEC should be installed as a matter upmost urgency end of, i feel a C1 best describes this. you can disagree with that all you want.

 

[GMES]

It's a C2 all day everyday no if's no but's you cant change the codes to suit your own personal thoughts, otherwise it would be chaos out there, oh hang on a minute it already is

 

[GLENNSPARK]

hahaha, now now play nice i havnt started questioning your abilities have I.

black and white? whos black and white?

can you explain how I can code something different to you can invalidate the report?

I believe the MEC should be installed as a matter upmost urgency end of, i feel a C1 best describes this. you can disagree with that all you want.

again


ITS NOT A BLOODY 1...is it.

a 1 is immediately dangerous...is it not

so no main earthing is not immediately dangerous...is it.....(such as exposed live parts)

but under fault conditions?....

and dangerous under fault conditions is a 2...is it not?

think thats cleared this one up...

 

[GLENNSPARK]

It's a C2 all day everyday no if's no but's you cant change the codes to suit your own personal thoughts, otherwise it would be chaos out there, oh hang on a minute it already is

course it is

that at #31 & #35 Wozz just twaddle...i`m afraid.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

never ceases to amaze me the amount of folk out there that can`t get their heads around the coding system for what are open and shut cases....

i bet their ECRs are full of 1s n 2s for stuff that they have no business failing....

lol....lol..

 

[ipf]

What..........if it's under fault condition, ie enhancing other C1's ? Just thinking ! Short to earth..no earth!!

 

[wozz]

i did think this forum was grown up for a while. same old same old.

 

[Eddiesparks]

I saw an eicr that gave a C2 for t&e cables that were in a chase with no capping/conduit, claiming 'no mechanical protection'. Wtf is the sheath dimlo ?!?!

 

[ipf]

I saw an eicr that gave a C2 for t&e cables that were in a chase with no capping/conduit, claiming 'no mechanical protection'. Wtf is the sheath dimlo ?!?!

They must have gone a bit deep into that report......taking the plaster off to check

 

[Eddiesparks]

Haha no. It was rough, chased out brickwork, no filling. But clipped.

Rough but fine basically

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Haha no. It was rough, chased out brickwork, no filling. But clipped.

Rough but fine basically

yeah well they probably had it in their minds that pvc/metal channels are `mechanical protection`...lol

this is typical Electrical Trainee stuff is this....i know caus i`v heard folk who i know are Electrical Trainee spouting it in the wholesalers...lol..

 

[davesparks]

If the installation with no earthing conductor also contained a circuit with high protective conductor currents would that warrant a C1?

 

[Silly Sausage]

If the installation with no earthing conductor also contained a circuit with high protective conductor currents would that warrant a C1?

NO!

Read the definitions of C1 and C2 in the books.
It's written in plain English, 'Immediate' and 'Potentially'.

 

[Badged01]

Even the ESC only grade it as a C2 -- and they sit next to the electrical God himself!

 

[D Skelton]

i did think this forum was grown up for a while. same old same old.

It still is, but you gotta admit, sometimes it is a good idea to run with the herd. Every book ever written on the new coding system would class no main earth as a C2, every electrician worth his salt would class it a C2, the regs class it a C2.... You see where this is going....

It is a C2, no argument. If you want to change the meanings to suit yourself then that's your prerogative, but it makes your reports worthless.

C1 means danger present, C2 means potentially dangerous. If the install is all tickedy boo except for a missing main earth, it is going to be perfectly safe at that moment in time isn't it! So a C2 it is.

 

[Badged01]

Where's the man with the well know saying ...... "you can't educate pork"!