A little help regarding fire detection system...

[Eddiesparks]

Some help from someone that knows a bit more about fire detection systmes than me please!

I am rewiring a pub (FOR MY SINS!) with what i think is classed as an HMO above (one bathroom, one kitchen - four seperate rooms with individual tenants in each) and they have asked (late in the day i may add!)for a fire detection system. The only info I got from them is that the fire risk assessment people have asked that the system s interlinked between upstairs and downstairs which is fine to do. So basically, for the HMO (all on one storey) it looks as if I need a grade D LD2 system with a smoke in the hallway between rooms (providing it is no greater than 7.5M to any bedroom door) and a heat in the kicthen. Is this right?!

Also what do i need in the pub? It is not huge but there is a kithcen and cellar so I'm thinking a heat in kitchen and smokes in cellar and in two or three zones of the pub. I'm used to simple house bashing - a smoke upstairs and downstairs and a heat in kitchen, mains feed, linked with third core of 3 core and E and with battery back up!!

Also - Could I get away with using interlinked by radio signal smokes/heats fed by various lighting circuit's perm lives and neutral?! I know this is allowed on domestic (I learn it from a booooook) The place is finished (most of my work is yukky surface mounted, not much job satisfaction from this one!!) and it would be loads easier if i could get away with not runnign three core between all the smokes and heats!

thanks everyone

 

[Octopus]

Hope you've got your tin hat on!

 

[tazz]

Bombs coming Murdoch.....!!!
A pub is classed as commercial premises, so will require a full fire alarm system, Control panel etc. And the flat being HMO, you can interlink mains detection with a fire alarm panel, but if your going to install a new system, you might as well install the complete building.

 

[Andy78]

If it were me, as someone not qualified in fire alarm deign, I would get someone who was to design and commission such a project for me and keep my own mind free to concentrate on the rest of the rewire.

 

[Guest77]

Oh dear oh dear, This is not a job for a Domestic installer, get an electrician in and quick before you get yourself into a hole you cannot escape from.

 

[Octopus]

I wonder if Tazz is available for Consultancy & Installation?

 

[tazz]

I wonder if Tazz is available for Consultancy & Installation?

I`m sure as pro sparks, you are all capable of installing a 4 zone conventional system.

 

[High Tower]

I`m sure as pro sparks, you are all capable of installing a 4 zone conventional system.

Where did you say the resistor thingys go again??

 

[Guest77]

My advice is to get a professional to design the system, price it and then show the client. I usually get my alarm company who I use a lot to design and issue me with a drawing, I allow for first fix and all cabling, they allow for supply of all kit, they also 2nd fix and program the panel, they also take the maintenance contract on and do the client training, I add 15% onto their costs and pay them via my books so I still get a cut. They take responsibility and look after the installation and customer for years after with no come back to me and no hassle, it is a specialist job IMO and needs to be left to the professionals not a Domestic Installer.

 

[High Tower]

My advice is to get a professional to design the system, price it and then show the client. I usually get my alarm company who I use a lot to design and issue me with a drawing, I allow for first fix and all cabling, they allow for supply of all kit, they also 2nd fix and program the panel, they also take the maintenance contract on and do the client training, I add 15% onto their costs and pay them via my books so I still get a cut. They take responsibility and look after the installation and customer for years after with no come back to me and no hassle, it is a specialist job IMO and needs to be left to the professionals not a Domestic Installer.

That there is pretty much the model way to do it, I put in some really big systems, we have an fire partner, we contract to them as install contractors, the provide us with design, supply and commission services providing us access to so pretty nifty managed protocol systems.

I get them out of the mire, regularly, they bend over backwards to help me, it's a win win situation

 

[tazz]

That there is pretty much the model way to do it, I put in some really big systems, we have an fire partner, we contract to them as install contractors, the provide us with design, supply and commission services providing us access to so pretty nifty managed protocol systems.

I get them out of the mire, regularly, they bend over backwards to help me, it's a win win situation

Without this partnership with electricians, we would have no business, In return, they get on the council list, so they gain aswell

 

[Eddiesparks]

ok boys fair enough I think that was what i was asking, is it do-able by me or do i need a specialist. Obviously out of my league

I will most likely just tell him it is not my domain and get him to call a fire alarm company himself, not too fussed about the 15% I am just really keen to get out of that job and onto the next as quick as poss! Not loving it to be honest!

 

[tazz]

Eddie, Unfortunately mains smokes are not permitted in commercial premises, they are only suited to domestic dwellings, and 2 level HMO.
If you feel its out your safe zone, team up with a local fire alarm installer, were they design, you install and charge for all the cabling, they come back, commission and sign off.

 

[Guest77]

Some help from someone that knows a bit more about fire detection systmes than me please!

I am rewiring a pub (FOR MY SINS!) with what i think is classed as an HMO above (one bathroom, one kitchen - four seperate rooms with individual tenants in each) and they have asked (late in the day i may add!)for a fire detection system. The only info I got from them is that the fire risk assessment people have asked that the system s interlinked between upstairs and downstairs which is fine to do. So basically, for the HMO (all on one storey) it looks as if I need a grade D LD2 system with a smoke in the hallway between rooms (providing it is no greater than 7.5M to any bedroom door) and a heat in the kicthen. Is this right?!

Also what do i need in the pub? It is not huge but there is a kithcen and cellar so I'm thinking a heat in kitchen and smokes in cellar and in two or three zones of the pub. I'm used to simple house bashing - a smoke upstairs and downstairs and a heat in kitchen, mains feed, linked with third core of 3 core and E and with battery back up!!

Also - Could I get away with using interlinked by radio signal smokes/heats fed by various lighting circuit's perm lives and neutral?! I know this is allowed on domestic (I learn it from a booooook) The place is finished (most of my work is yukky surface mounted, not much job satisfaction from this one!!) and it would be loads easier if i could get away with not runnign three core between all the smokes and heats!

thanks everyone

Emergency lighting, a nurse call system in the disabled toilet, dedicated supplies to the cellar equipment, probably seperate Distribution board for kitchen equipment, gas valve linked to fire alarm panel, Car park lighting, satellite tv system, supplies for drinks chillers, Garden Lighting, Multi gang switching for general Lighting, Full fire alarm system, network supplies for telephone and internet system, supplies for fruit machines, supplies for glass washers, general sockets for cleaners, supply for central heating system, supplies for automatic flushes for toilets, neon signage supplies and I will add to the list should something pop into my head.

Mike

 

[High Tower]

Emergency lighting, a nurse call system in the disabled toilet, dedicated supplies to the cellar equipment, probably seperate Distribution board for kitchen equipment, gas valve linked to fire alarm panel, Car park lighting, satellite tv system, supplies for drinks chillers, Garden Lighting, Multi gang switching for general Lighting, Full fire alarm system, network supplies for telephone and internet system, supplies for fruit machines, supplies for glass washers, general sockets for cleaners, supply for central heating system, supplies for automatic flushes for toilets, neon signage supplies and I will add to the list should something pop into my head.

Mike

Gas valve also needs to be linked into the extraction system over the cookers, if the extraction is off then the gas won't operate.

I normally use the fire alarm to shut down all air handling plant, including the kitchen extract!. Which then shuts the gas down, saves on interfaces lol

 

[Knobhead]

This has been an interesting read.

Having only ever worked on kilns and furnaces, fire detection didn’t really figure in the scheme of things. Although some Muppet suggested we had them fitted. Could have been interesting.

 

[snowhead]

This has been an interesting read.

Having only ever worked on kilns and furnaces, fire detection didn’t really figure in the scheme of things. Although some Muppet suggested we had them fitted. Could have been interesting.

I can imagine some of the responses;

"FIRE",, Yes correct we've got plenty of it.

"Smoke,, somethings burning", Yes, you're not wrong there, usually comes with all the Fire we have.

 

[Guest77]

Gas valve also needs to be linked into the extraction system over the cookers, if the extraction is off then the gas won't operate.

I normally use the fire alarm to shut down all air handling plant, including the kitchen extract!. Which then shuts the gas down, saves on interfaces lol

Ah yes thats very true a fresh air fan needs to be running as well as extract as you mentioned, quite right.

 

[High Tower]

Ah yes thats very true a fresh air fan needs to be running as well as extract as you mentioned, quite right.

Good point mike!

We have to interlock extraction Canopies because of the gas regs, in complete madness the gas regs do not call for the intake to be interlocked too!, however like mike I use dual pressure switches and interlock both!!.

And all air handling is normally interfaced to the fire alarm normally on the roof or plant room

 

[High Tower]

This has been an interesting read.

Having only ever worked on kilns and furnaces, fire detection didn’t really figure in the scheme of things. Although some Muppet suggested we had them fitted. Could have been interesting.

I can just imagine some health and safety nob, standing with a standard smoke head in his had looking at a 40m ceiling above a ladle lol..........

In seriousness super aggressive environments like a foundry would have a fire risk assessment these days that would call for manual detection only and the need for automatic detection being negated with the exception of the office and public areas such as reception. So by modern day standards just manual call points dotted around on the foundry floor, protected with compliant covers and call points on every final exit.

It's not uncommon, we did a run of bus garages a few years back, L5 system, no automatic detection within the bus parking garage die to diesel smoke, just MCP's and sounders, and in the pit area, linear heat cable.

 

[tazz]

Quite common to use air sampling in bus depots, such as Vesda....the sensitivity and timing can be programmed over such a wide range.
But I think even air sampling couldn`t cope with furnaces ....

 

[Knobhead]

We did have detection systems. In the fuel storage and processing areas.

Coal can spontaneously combust. We had several fires in the storage bunkers where the only answer is to inject CO² or nitrogen in, water was a NoNo unless you wanted an explosion on your hands. A fire in one of the stock ground heaps took the best part of six months to put out.
The processed pulverised coal is highly explosive and was one of our biggest dangers. Just to add to the fun it would catch fire inside the mills. They were made to stand an internal explosion and had explosion doors that would blow off. Then the blanking gas would go in.

Natural gas, producer gas, diesel, coke and biomass just added to the fun and games.

It was all fairly safe once in the kiln, but I still managed to cause several explosions. Only got carted off to hospital once, a gas burner blew back in my face.

 

[tazz]

That`s interesting, especially the means of auto extingushing coal fire. Never come across furnaces before, only fuel storage, were we usually used flame detectors, to catch the early stages of ignited fuel or gas. Last flames detectors I used were terminal 5, deep down in the sumps under runway leading roads. Any fuel dump or spillage, ignited or not, is dowsed is protein foam as soon as control panel senses flame or air bound hydrocarbons. Was an interesting project.

 

[High Tower]

Best thing to ever happen to a crappy protek panel!!............

 

[tazz]

Best thing to ever happen to a crappy protek panel!!............

LOVE IT...LOVE IT....Now find a big skip to throw it in...!!

 

[ayjay]

illuminated fire sxit sighns too?

 

[High Tower]

LOVE IT...LOVE IT....Now find a big skip to throw it in...!!

They have to win an award for THE crappiest system............in the world, lol hateful things! Look like they were made in someone's shed!

 

[tazz]

They have to win an award for THE crappiest system............in the world, lol hateful things! Look like they were made in someone's shed!

Plus keeping the poor customer, in a closed contract for years.

 

[High Tower]

Mate can you explain to me why they thought they needed all of this crap to monitor one BMS panel???................

 

[tazz]

There is more relay ouput units, than the is inputs.....over engineer, plus a total mess...one addressable multi I/O would have done the job, very sad photo.

 

[High Tower]

There is more relay ouput units, than the is inputs.....over engineer, plus a total mess...one addressable multi I/O would have done the job, very sad photo.

A bit like this.........

 

[tazz]

A bit like this.........

Exactly.....we sing from the same hym sheet

 

[High Tower]

LOVE IT...LOVE IT....Now find a big skip to throw it in...!!

A bit like this............

Mind you there's another 2 loop panel and another mimic to join em!

 

[Engineer54]

These days it's far better where you have a BMS system controlling the building, is to have that BMS systems fire alarm application included in the overall system package. I can remember in years gone by, complete chaos trying to get the fire alarm to talk to the BMS and visa versa, both being from different manufacturers, neither of whom willing to provide their system protocols. Thankfully that's now a thing of the past, and a distant memory worthy of forgetting!! lol!!

 

[High Tower]

E54, fire alarms do not talk to BMS systems, they share no language or protocols.

A BMS system will be equipped with usually one, or more for more complex systems, I/O unit or programable interface. The cause and effects written into the fire alarms programming dictates how these units are operated and in what circumstances. These switch one or more sets of
Contacts going back into the BMS. Multiple Chanel's can be used on systems such as the gent s-quad 4 Chanel quads that can be set as relay outputs or monitored inputs, therefore giving two way communication between the two systems. And a ability to shut down certain facilities while running up others such as extract fans.

These units are addressed onto the loop and simply change state during fire conditions, no protocol required.

 

[Engineer54]

Maybe these days yes, but not in the 80s. Trying to integrate the fire alarm with a BMS system of different manufacturers was a nightmare, we tried just about everything even trying to use an ASCII interface nothing worked. In the end we had to dump the BMS system, no great loss as it was based on an outdated technology, ...a disaster in it's own right. So ended up with the Honeywell BMS and integrated FA system. As i remember the point number on that project was in excess of 20,000, covering just about everything associated with the needs of 4 hospital buildings with a total of 1500+ beds....