Another fine mess??????

[Octopus]

A couple of months back one of my neighbours let me know that they were having a new kitchen fitted in their rental property. The complete works were to be undertaken by a very well known major DIY chain. They apologised for not getting me involved (which was very nice of them) but the DIY chain "have their own people".

So here we are 5 weeks after the works are complete. In the kitchen the electrics required modification to incorporate some new sockets.

My neighbour has been chasing said DIY chain for the certificate and Part P notification and nothing has been forthcoming. An exchange of email has taken place and the outcome, so far, is that the kitchen installer did all the work on the kitchen, including the electrics, but he's not registered, nor could he test, nor could he notify. The fitter is not an employee of the DIY chain

So they've asked me to get involved!!!!!!!!

I'm going to speak to the installer tomorrow to get his side of the story.

I've taken a quick look at the new kitchen and the "old style" cooker point has been covered over and I'm guessing that the new sockets were run as a radial off this point. The "old point" is completely hidden by a wall cupboard so its anyones guess how the "extension" to the cable was made.

My thoughts are:

Who can now notify this? (I'm happy to do an EICR on the specific changed circuits)
What tactic should my neighbour take with the DIY chain?
Who's responsibility is it to talk to LABC? The DIY chain, the installer, my neighbour?

My thinks this is going to be protracted as my neighbour knows about Part P etc PLUS his letting agent is asking for the certificates!

 

[Marvo]

Gawd, this is going to get messy.

 

[Guitarist]

As it was work in a kitchen then either the local building control was notified in advance or the work was carried out by a part P registered electrician. If this was not the case then "can of worms" springs to mind.

 

[DaveyD]

Who's responsibility is it to talk to LABC? The DIY chain, the installer, my neighbour?

It's the householders responsibility to ensure legal, but I shoulod have thought diy.com would have stated to him/her that electricians are registered in which case they take responsibility.

 

[Des 56]

they can issue a regularisation certificate using the eicr

 

[Marvo]

It's the householders responsibility to ensure legal, but I shoulod have thought diy.com would have stated to him/her that electricians are registered in which case they take responsibility.

And to take that thought all the way the subcontractor will have signed saying he'll ensure the work is legal so he takes responsibility and the 'electrician' will have told the subcontractor he is legal so he takes responsibility.....but all of a sudden his phone will be on answer service and he won't be returning calls.

 

[Octopus]

I rather think that my neighbour should tip this back to the DIY chain as I'm sure that they won't want the negative publicity PLUS shouldn't they, as the main contractor accept that they hold this responsibility??

 

[Mark_Burgess]

I rather think that my neighbour should tip this back to the DIY chain as I'm sure that they won't want the negative publicity PLUS shouldn't they, as the main contractor accept that they hold this responsibility??

If I were you, i'd help them all the way, call them like you say and let us know what they say, try and get their name and do a competent persons search.

 

[jase]

I would do the EICR, but whatever you find should not be rectified as if there is anything wrong than this cant be proved if it is put right, LABC and trading standards in my view should be informed, as a major chain you would think that they check their installation systems ie who they employ, and even though the responsibilty may well lie with the customer, it would be easier for them to claim ignorance then the Shed.

 

[PC Electrics]

Who was the contract with for the works, and what does the contract have to say about certificates and notification.

Your client should seek advice from a solicitor. It might be argued that ykw can be sued for breach of contract as it would be reasonably expected that the complete works should include certs and notification. Without such the job is not complete and ykw have not met their obligations under the building regulations.

 

[Octopus]

I'm simply astonished that a big DIY chain would employ subcontractor(s) to do notifiable work and not ensure its done.

 

[TaffyDuck]

Nit pick the whole blooming job. Pull it apart piece by piece then charge the DIY store like a wounded bull on amphetamines.

 

[Marvo]

I think setting aside who's legally responsible for what, if the customer paid the DIY store for the installation then that's who I would go after for remedy. Plus they're the one with the brand name to maintain so they're more likely to do whatever it takes to get the matter sorted out without too much dust being kicked up.

 

[Adam W]

I'd wait to hear what the installer says and what his reasons are for things like making connections inaccessible (with reference to the old cooker CCU), get as much information as possible on what he's done, and also find out what the deal is with the EIC.

I would have said that if B&Q insist on using their own subcontractors then it is their responsibility to ensure their subcontractors are up to the job, or that they sub the work out to someone who is.
If your neighbour went to B&Q and bought a kitchen off them, then the contract is with B&Q so it should be their responsibility to feed back the information down the line and get the problems rectified, even if it means using a different subcontractor - the client shouldn't be responsible for B&Q striking deals with 'the wrong' suppliers, just the same as if you buy a light fitting from them and it doesn't work you'd expect B&Q to issue you with a refund or replacement rather than having to send it back to the manufacturers in China or wherever.

If all else fails it you could just do an EICR as you say, which IMO makes the whole concept of the EIC seem kind of pointless.

 

[needasparks]

Or pretend to be out when the neighbour knocks again. I hate it when you get dragged into things like this, more so when you know its gonna get messy.

 

[supasparxs]

I can't help wondering what was the completion date for this kitchen fit?
As the DIY chain took the contract on to install the kitchen, I feel it is their responsibility to ensure all the documentation is in place.
As the kitchen is not complete until all the paperwork has been handed over the project is still ongoing.
Has the neighbour paid for the project in full?
if he has, and he has paid all or part of it on a credit card, ask the credit cards company to get involved
(Visa has bigger legal department that you LABC)
As the project has not been completed, the property can not be let out, as a result the consiquence the customer cannot let out the house.

just a couple of thoughts

 

[Paul.M]

Hi Murdoch, my wife works for a large expensive bathroom company on the legal complaints such as this. I've asked her where your neighbour stands. Most have already said it above but at least you know its all great advice from the lads.

First off all the shed have to instruct/sub contract the work to a "veted" tradesmen with the correct training, qualifications and insurance. In this case they haven't instructed a competent person.

The shed is liable for any extra costs involved obtaining the associated documents and correcting any shortfalls on standards of workmanship (in our case its certs, part p, regs).
The whole of this problem falls on the shed and not the installer they supplied.

Your friend can claim for loss of income (rent) but inform the shed ASAP that this is a rented property and it can not be rented out without the relevant certs (not covered by insurance if not certed).

 

[cook1e]

bottom line is they will put another team in to put it right, they will have that right, dont get in too deep, let it run its course, ****e i know but we had to do revisits for them , to be fair not often, on the bathrooms

Martin

 

[Octopus]

UPDATE : From the horses mouth (well the kitchen fitters

The DIY chain subcontract all the fitting/electrics to the fitter
The kitchen fitter has altered 2 circuits, including leaving a non MF JB behind a newly plasterboarded wall
His NICEIC sparky normally comes and tests etc, and notifies, for £90.00
75% of his mates do exactly the same


So what to do next?

 

[telectrix]

you could do as you suggested earlier. do a pir/eicr on the work, but you'll have to charge your neighbour for this, you're not a charity. give them a quote for any remedial work required and then they have some ammo to hit the shed with, cost of eicr+ remedial.

 

[Octopus]

you could do as you suggested earlier. do a pir/eicr on the work, but you'll have to charge your neighbour for this, you're not a charity. give them a quote for any remedial work required and then they have some ammo to hit the shed with, cost of eicr+ remedial.

Yes, thought of that but the notifcation?

 

[Plonker 3]

Surely if it is contracted out by the shed, they are responsible for it. Any contracts signed by neighbor saying anything like that?

 

[GLENNSPARK]

A couple of months back one of my neighbours let me know that they were having a new kitchen fitted in their rental property. The complete works were to be undertaken by a very well known major DIY chain. They apologised for not getting me involved (which was very nice of them) but the DIY chain "have their own people".

So here we are 5 weeks after the works are complete. In the kitchen the electrics required modification to incorporate some new sockets.

My neighbour has been chasing said DIY chain for the certificate and Part P notification and nothing has been forthcoming. An exchange of email has taken place and the outcome, so far, is that the kitchen installer did all the work on the kitchen, including the electrics, but he's not registered, nor could he test, nor could he notify. The fitter is not an employee of the DIY chain

So they've asked me to get involved!!!!!!!!

I'm going to speak to the installer tomorrow to get his side of the story.

I've taken a quick look at the new kitchen and the "old style" cooker point has been covered over and I'm guessing that the new sockets were run as a radial off this point. The "old point" is completely hidden by a wall cupboard so its anyones guess how the "extension" to the cable was made.

My thoughts are:

Who can now notify this? (I'm happy to do an EICR on the specific changed circuits)
What tactic should my neighbour take with the DIY chain?
Who's responsibility is it to talk to LABC? The DIY chain, the installer, my neighbour?

My thinks this is going to be protracted as my neighbour knows about Part P etc PLUS his letting agent is asking for the certificates!

if the client has a copy of any corrispondance stating that as far as the wireing was concerned that "they have their own people".....then surely he/she has em by the balls.......

 

[GLENNSPARK]

caus its about time that these unregistered, incompetent kitchen fitters ( i bet thats who has done this wireing)....are put out of action as regards electrical work is concerned.....their a bloody nightmare and my boss n I have come across stacks of their "work" if you could call it that...lol.....

 

[Octopus]

caus its about time that these unregistered, incompetent kitchen fitters ( i bet thats who has done this wireing)....are put out of action as regards electrical work is concerned.....their a bloody nightmare and my boss n I have come across stacks of their "work" if you could call it that...lol.....

If you look back at post 19 I did update the fact that the fitter told me he has in fact done the first and 2nd fix and his mate, the NICEIC spark gets £90.00 to test, certify and notify!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[GLENNSPARK]

If you look back at post 19 I did update the fact that the fitter told me he has in fact done the first and 2nd fix and his mate, the NICEIC spark gets £90.00 to test, certify and notify!!!!!!!!!!!

well if its an approved contractor then this would be ok ..yes?...but under part p then obviously it aint......all sounding quirky this is..lol....

 

[Octopus]

Elecsa's view is that the kitchen fitter should be reported to trading standards and the NICEIC chap to NICEIC.

I asked Elecsa when they were going to work with Napit and NICEIC to eradicate these "people"

 

[needasparks]

If you look back at post 19 I did update the fact that the fitter told me he has in fact done the first and 2nd fix and his mate, the NICEIC spark gets £90.00 to test, certify and notify!!!!!!!!!!!

It may be worth knowing, the NIC is the only body that do not allow this practice unlike others and it has to be the installer that certs.
Just thought i would mention in case it helps.

 

[Octopus]

It may be worth knowing, the NIC is the only body that do not allow this practice unlike others and it has to be the installer that certs.
Just thought i would mention in case it helps.

Not sure I understand your point.

 

[needasparks]

I mean a lot of the other bodies allow testing and certing a job carried out by third party as long as they were instructing the job but NIC are cracking down on this practice where other bodies turn a blind eye to it.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

I mean a lot of the other bodies allow testing and certing a job carried out by third party as long as they were instructing the job but NIC are cracking down on this practice where other bodies turn a blind eye to it.

yes but under part p rules....the person who ultimately signs off the work and notifies has to be present at both the design and install stages of the works....or what you would have is a few guys being part p registered ....then going round loads of installers (including kitchen fitters)..lol....like some sort of QS for hire...lol...

 

[Octopus]

I mean a lot of the other bodies allow testing and certing a job carried out by third party as long as they were instructing the job but NIC are cracking down on this practice where other bodies turn a blind eye to it.

NIC cracking down on it, don't make me laugh.

In THIS case all the sparky is doing is turning up to test. How can he possibly sign off the design? Especially as the kitchen installer probably won't tell him that he's used a standard JB and sealed it in behind a new plasterboard panel, behind a cupboard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[GLENNSPARK]

NIC cracking down on it, don't make me laugh.

In THIS case all the sparky is doing is turning up to test. How can he possibly sign off the design? Especially as the kitchen installer probably won't tell him that he's used a standard JB and sealed it in behind a new plasterboard panel, behind a cupboard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WOW!!....you mean he actually used a joint box...lol.....

 

[needasparks]

Like most of these jobs, if the cert is not in the pile ready for inspection it would not be pulled would it. It just needs to be brought to there attention and then it can be looked for. This is the practice that is clamping down as the nic now pair up notifications with certs to check if both exist. with what you have said on this job I would have thought the cert would have gone missing, would be a good way of not letting this happen, especially as faults are listed to them as then they know what to look for.
I should add, I would have thought the installer is only a DI by them faults you listed so when a complaint is raised it would be with a higher inspector to check out as DI have different inspectors to fully aproved members who are checked in more depth.

 

[Octopus]

For clarity::

The kitchen fitter is NOT a sparky BUT he did the first and second fix

The NICEIC registered electrician simply comes along to test and certificate at the end.

 

[needasparks]

I understand what you are saying but the sparks is not going to say that is he ? so if it can be proved that this happend, he's had it.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

For clarity::

The kitchen fitter is NOT a sparky BUT he did the first and second fix

The NICEIC registered electrician simply comes along to test and certificate at the end.

hmm...test and certificate....not inspect for himself then.....a clear neglect on his part....

 

[supasparxs]

I have a couple of questions
1) If the NIC spark is signing off the work and notifying for the works, why hasn't the customer got the paperwork?

2) If there are faults that the NIC spark has missed, why doesn't the customer call the NIC in to snag the works?

 

[needasparks]

In all disputes the NIC with refer you to sort with installer and no solution only then will they step in. With another sparks report they have no choice but to investigate. I was asked to do this same thing on someones install which they where hung out to dry on.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

I have a couple of questions
1) If the NIC spark is signing off the work and notifying for the works, why hasn't the customer got the paperwork?

2) If there are faults that the NIC spark has missed, why doesn't the customer call the NIC in to snag the works?

snagg the works??....snagg him more like for missing em.....or am i missing something?..........