Do you have to become Part P registered to certify work?

[Bear2016]

Trust a trader..... Is it worth the expense?

I've been validated by Norfolk County Council on their Trusted Trader scheme which is regulated by Trading standards and references left on Referenceline.

Is it worth it? Costs £195 + VAT and it is bit of an arduous process however so far this year I've had 26 jobs from it averaging from £500 - £5000 so if you look at it like that its cost me £7.50 per job. Thats without the quotes I have done which have not happened but I have found people who use it are more likely to not be time wasters, good payers and you also have the protection if they decide not to pay the Trusted Trader scheme will fight your corner to get the money from them if they find their reasons not genuine.

Personally for me I can't fault it and customers who use it say its a great way to get a good reliable tradesman.

 

[Bear2016]

You don't have to be a member of a scheme or incur extortionate Building Control fees to sign off for part P.

See here

"The BCB can also use the IET/BCA alliance document. The Institution of Engineering and Technology (IET) and the Building Control Alliance (BCA), co-produced this document and it is downloadable free from the IET website, to gauge an individual’s level of electrical and Building Regulations competency. The BCB can then use this information to adjust building control charges accordingly, based around the level of risk an individual poses and how much work the BCB would incur to confirm this. Using this method, a BCB may accept a BS 7671 Electrical Installation Certificate (EIC) from an un-registered competent person."

And here

"I ET-BCA Guidance for Local Building Control Bodies: Electrical Installation Qualifications and Competence (within England and Wales)
The purpose of this new peer reviewed Guidance document is to outline the skills and competences required for an individual to carry out electrical installation work within dwellings in England and Wales. Specifically work that falls under the remit of Part P of the Building Regulations and referred to in Approved Document P.

An individual’s competence level or skills are afforded a risk rating, explanation and action outcome within the Guidance document. These may then be used to calculate if any additional work may need to be taken into account by a local Building Control Body (BCB)."

If you have the skills and the qualifications then there's no reason for a BC officer to visit, so the costs should be no more than the admin fee to issue the certificate. I would imagine £15 to £20.

If your only doing a few Part P jobs a year then this route has got to be cost -effective..

All the schemes do is take some of the admin, ie. The requirement to keep a register of competent persons, out of building controls hands.

When Part P was enacted there was no intention to give the scheme providers an absolute monopoly, But that's how it seems to have become, especially with the schemers perpetuating the myth that that is the only way to go.

I don't know how easy this route is to achieve but it can't be any more onerous than joining a scheme. I don't know anyone who has done it. Perhaps there are some on here who have? It doesn't seem to be a well know alternative.

I should add that this route appears to be just another scheme and there is nothing to stop you approaching BC personally with your certificates etc. And they may accept that you are a competent Person.

My quotes are from here if anyone wants to read more.

Building Regulations - Part P certification schemes - IET Electrical - http://electrical.------.org/building-regulations/part-p/certification-schemes.cfm

I've just contacted my LBC and have asked the question if they operate the scheme. Be interested to see what they say!

 

[Bear2016]

Just an update on this. I contacted the following early part of the week to see what they could offer and my situation.
ELECSA - never replied
NICEIC - never replied
STROMA - never replied
LBC - never replied

The only people to reply were NAPIT who wanted me to do all manner of things totaling close to £1200 to sign off a simple cooker circuit or new shower circuit. I know its wrong but I now know why people just do it. Appears the schemes have a monopoly on it and its their way or nothing which is so frustrating when you want your work to be above board safe and legal.

Thanks for all the advice greatly appreciated - time to decide I guess!

 

[Devonchris]

Hi, thanks for the feedback. Very interesting.

As you say, it seems to be a monopoly. And this makes me mad because Building Control are dealing with it irresponsibly . They are the ones that are allowing this to happen. They are responsible for administration of the regs, not the scheme providers.

If I was you I would try again to contact them, keep evidence of that, and if you get no response then on your next job summit your BS 7671 Cert to them and see what happens. Alternately you could contact the the Local Authority Ombudsman and complain.

They have a responsibility to recognise a competent Person. See here from building regs Part P.

3.10 An installer who is competent to carry out inspection and testing should give the appropriate
BS 7671 certificate to the building control body, who will then take the certificate and the installer’s
qualifications into account in deciding what further action, if any, it needs to take. Building control
bodies may ask installers for evidence of their qualifications.

3.11 This can result in a lower building control charge as, when setting its charge, a local authority is
required by the Building (Local Authority Charges) Regulations 2010 to take account of the amount
of inspection work that it considers it will need to carry out.

Good luck with whatever way you go.

 

[Bear2016]

Well for the past 8 days I have sent the same email to LBC asking them what I need to do to certify the work and what they want to see from me to prove I can do the work

8 emails later and still nothing so I've made it my first morning chore to resend the original email everyday until I do get a reply!

Anyone want a sweep stake to see how long or if I ever get a reply?

 

[Octopus]

Appears the schemes have a monopoly on it and its their way or nothing which is so frustrating when you want your work to be above board safe and legal.

Its not a monopoly, its worse then that, its a Cartel - all pretty much price fixed with no real competition.......

 

[telectrix]

it's a complete farce as well.the intention was to eliminate cowboys, but by increasing the costs for genuine, competent sparks, all it has done is give the cowboys a licence to undercut prices, as they don't have to stump up scam membership and all the other associated costs incurred by us. end of the day, customers ( domestic side ) will generally go for the cheapest quote, as long as it works.

 

[Devonchris]

Try sending the email, stating how long you have been waiting for a response, with a copy to the chief executive of the council, the chairman of the council and your local MP. That should stir things up.

 

[Bear2016]

11 days later and I finally have a reply from the LBC which is below
Good Afternoon
Further to your e-mail, from the information/ C&G details you are competent to carry out this type of works. Your two choices would be to become a member of one of the Part P self certification schemes or on each job (where applicable) you would need to submit a Building Notice application for the electrical works if it was not already not covered by an existing Building application for ie, House or extension etc.
Unfortunately, we would not keep a data sheet of your certificates and thus you would need to send your details in on every application.
I trust the above helps

That sounds like a round about way of saying get your a55 on a self certification scheme to me

 

[telectrix]

yeah. and you submit a building notice application along with a cheque for £300.

 

[Bear2016]

yeah. and you submit a building notice application along with a cheque for £300.

For a job you charge £100 for

 

[telectrix]

some BC s are more help. they only charge £295.

 

[Devonchris]

Hi thanks for keeping us informed on this saga. They have obviously been mulling it over and taking advice before replying.

Here's my take on it.

The Regs does not say you have to submit a building application submission. It says you have to inform a building control body before work begins.

They have accepted you are competent to carry out the work.

Email them before your next notifiable job. Give them 3 or 4 days notice. (Not too long to give them plenty of time to think about it.) Head it something like, building regulations, part P, notifiable work, prior information of work to be carried out.

Details of property

Details off work

Date work is to commence

Add ; in accordance with the building regs and your acceptance of my competence to carry out this work, I will be submitting BS7671 certification of inspection and testing, along with copies of my qualifications, on completion of the work.

That would (in my opinion) cover all the requirements in the regs.

See here

Certification by a building control body
3.8 If an installer is not a registered competent person and has not appointed a registered third-party
certifier, then before work begins the installer must notify a building control body.
3.9 The building control body will determine the extent of inspection and testing needed for it to
establish that the work is safe, based on the nature of the electrical work and the competence
of the installer. The building control body may choose to carry out any necessary inspection and
testing itself, or it may contract a specialist to carry out some or all of the work and furnish it with
an electrical installation condition report.
3.10 An installer who is competent to carry out inspection and testing should give the appropriate
BS 7671 certificate to the building control body, who will then take the certificate and the installer’s
qualifications into account in deciding what further action, if any, it needs to take. Building control
bodies may ask installers for evidence of their qualifications.
3.11 This can result in a lower building control charge as, when setting its charge, a local authority is
required by the Building (Local Authority Charges) Regulations 2010 to take account of the amount
of inspection work that it considers it will need to carry out.

Sorry if this sounds like I'm trying to teach you to such eggs, it was just the easiest way to get down my thoughts.

Good luck. If you pull this off you will be a hero to the sole trader electrician and sworn enemy of the scheme providers.

 

[Devonchris]

It's obvious from Multimick's earlier post that some Councils are more in tune with the Regs than others, but you shouldn't be discriminated against dependant on where you work.

i cover west lancs ,chorley and wigan councils i just send in my bs7671 certs downloaded from iet website stick them in a folder with my 2391 never had a failure yet.

 

[Devonchris]

From my rambling posts it may appear that I am anti Scheme Providers. I'm not in general. It just appears that they have lost sight, probably due to complacency, of what they should represent.

They should be a trade body representing their members interests but they seem to have lost sight of that. Can you imagine someone turning up at a tube station offering to drive the train for half the going rate? and what the reaction would be from the drivers representatives? In effect, that's what's happening. But as long as people have to join to get their work signed off there is no incentive for the schemes to offer much else.

We don't seem to have any public information regarding the danger or potential difficulty of selling a house with dodgy electrics. Why can't the schemes get together and fund that?

Imagine if one of them got together with a meter manufacturer and came up with a MFT with a sim card and smartphone type interface, fill in the details of the property etc. Do the tests, press send, job done. Now perhaps that would be worth joining for. It could even be leased and included in your annual fees. To be returned if you left the scheme.

But while ever they have a monopoly on part P its not going to happen. Because at the moment it's all about profit and not about how to attract members.

Perhaps some of them will read this and decide to change. Then again.

 

[Bear2016]

This is the reply I have sent this morning to my LBC. A massive thankyou to Devonchris for all the advice given

Many thanks for your reply however I am unsure it has actually answered the question originally asked

After viewing Part P Electrical Safety - Dwellings Part 6 Section 3 may I draw your attention to the following points

Certification by a building control body
3.8 If an installer is not a registered competent person and has not appointed a registered third-party certifier, then before work begins the installer must notify a building control body.
* No where does the regulations stipulate that a Building Notice Application needs to be submitted. Could you please clarify your reason for stating this?
3.9 The building control body will determine the extent of inspection and testing needed for it to establish that the work is safe, based on the nature of the electrical work and the competence of the installer. The building control body may choose to carry out any necessary inspection and testing itself, or it may contract a specialist to carry out some or all of the work and furnish it with an electrical installation condition report.
3.10 An installer who is competent to carry out inspection and testing should give the appropriate BS 7671 certificate to the building control body, who will then take the certificate and the installer’s qualifications into account in deciding what further action, if any, it needs to take. Building control bodies may ask installers for evidence of their qualifications.
3.11 This can result in a lower building control charge as, when setting its charge, a local authority is required by the Building (Local Authority Charges) Regulations 2010 to take account of the amount of inspection work that it considers it will need to carry out.
3.12 Once the building control body has decided that, as far as can be ascertained, the work meets all Building Regulations requirements, it will issue to the occupier a Building Regulations completion certificate (if a local authority) or a final certificate (if an approved inspector).
The majority of my work will involve adding an extra kitchen socket/s or and FCU for a white appliance above the worktop to comply with current electrical regs whilst installing a kitchen. As I have already been deemed to be of competence from the information and C&G details supplied I would expect to be able to submit the following 5 working days prior to starting the work
Details of property

Details off work

Date work is to commence

And in accordance with the building regs and your acceptance of my competence to carry out this work, I would submit a BS7671 certification of inspection and testing, along with copies of my qualifications, on completion of the work.

That would in my opinion cover all the requirements that are clearly stated in the Regulations.

Could you confirm if this would indeed to acceptable?

 

[andyb]

How does showing your qualifcations demonstrate you are competent?
I qualified in 1981, I could of been driving a bus ever since but as long as I forward a copy of my C&Gs I'm competent?

 

[Bear2016]

How does showing your qualifcations demonstrate you are competent?
I qualified in 1981, I could of been driving a bus ever since but as long as I forward a copy of my C&Gs I'm competent?

I did not write the regs but thats what they require.
I agree qualifications do not make you competent but I do now have a reference from a registered spark for some of the work I have done that he has checked and signed off on and willing to vouch the work I do and have done coincides with all the regs required.
Plus it does state in 3.10 they will access what further testing would be required but the underlying question is can it be done so I and others who are not on a Part P competent scheme and do the work without needing registration as the electrical is not our main core business but falls inside of our scope of work sometimes.
Personally I feel the schemes are not set up for the sole traders and certainly for people such as myself we are being bullied into a scheme that we don't actually need.

 

[andyb]

I did not write the regs but thats what they require.
I agree qualifications do not make you competent but I do now have a reference from a registered spark for some of the work I have done that he has checked and signed off on and willing to vouch the work I do and have done coincides with all the regs required.
Plus it does state in 3.10 they will access what further testing would be required but the underlying question is can it be done so I and others who are not on a Part P competent scheme and do the work without needing registration as the electrical is not our main core business but falls inside of our scope of work sometimes.
Personally I feel the schemes are not set up for the sole traders and certainly for people such as myself we are being bullied into a scheme that we don't actually need.

I was making a general point Bear.
I've been in the trade for 35 years and I wouldn't be able to assess a persons competence just by looking at a few certificates, so what chance has a person sitting behind a desk at LBC?
Not sugesting for one minute that you don't go down that route, I would.
Just saying that part or the regs is flawed.

 

[Devonchris]

A little bit more info here which supports your campaign.

2012 consultation on changes to the
Building Regulations in England

29. We could also amend the Building (Local Authority Charges) Regulations 2010 to
ensure that building control charges would be lower where qualified third party
electricians took over responsibility for inspection and testing from the building
control body and were able to issue a BS 7671 inspection and testing form. The lower
charges would recognise the savings in building control time, and reflect the fact that
the amendments to the Charges Regulations would require local authorities to take
into account third party certification in setting their charges.

30. These lower building control charges would apply equally to qualified electricians
capable of inspecting and testing their own notifiable electrical installation work (and
of issuing a BS 7671 Electrical Installation Certificate), and who under the existing
arrangements choose, for whatever reason, not to join a registration scheme.