EICR Code for no main earth

[GMES]

If it walks like a Duck and quacks like a duck...

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Where's the man with the well know saying ...... "you can't educate pork"!

he`s here..

and your right....you cant educate cracklin...

 

[davesparks]

NO!

Read the definitions of C1 and C2 in the books.
It's written in plain English, 'Immediate' and 'Potentially'.

Calm down dear, I was only asking a hypthothetical question.

I was only asking as if the installation contains circuits with high CPC currrents in normal use then without the main earth then there could potentially be a voltage relative to earth present at all metalwork connected to the CPC in question.
Obviously on discovering an installation with no main earth you would carry out some simple voltage tests to ascertain whether this has led to metal parts of the installation being at a voltage relative to metal objects connected to true earth which are available to touch.

I know its a C2 for no main earth, but if you have no main earth and identify a voltage between a metal DB and the exposed lead sheath of the incoming supply cable as a direct result of this then that could be immediately dangerous (I mean a real voltage not a ghost)

 

[Silly Sausage]

Haha...I'm always calm!
Say there were raised voltages on Exposed parts, one might expect reports of people getting slight shocks.
Then, obviously, an Electrician would be called in to investigate. Still not an Immediate Danger though.
But in the general case, an install in good condition with a missing Earth, is potentially dangerous in the event of a Line to Exposed part fault, hence....C2.

 

[davesparks]

Haha...I'm always calm!
Say there were raised voltages on Exposed parts, one might expect reports of people getting slight shocks.
Then, obviously, an Electrician would be called in to investigate. Still not an Immediate Danger though.
But in the general case, an install in good condition with a missing Earth, is potentially dangerous in the event of a Line to Exposed part fault, hence....C2.

You'd like to think so wouldn't you, but I went to a house a few months ago to do something or other and the lady mentioned that everyone felt a funny tingling when they touched a certain wall in the bathroom. I asked when this first happened and she said the day they moved in, which was about 13 years ago! (it was a cable in the wall with a capping nail touching live and after a shower the condensation made the wall damp enough to get a tingle)

There really is no helping those who can't help themselves

 

[Risteard]

I would consider the lack of an earthing conductor to the MET to be immediately dangerous and hence a C1 (notwithstanding the fact that a fault would have to be present).

 

[D Skelton]

I would consider the lack of an earthing conductor to the MET to be immediately dangerous and hence a C1 (notwithstanding the fact that a fault would have to be present).

Can you get a shock from it all else being well with the installation?

No?

Then it's not immediately dangerous is it!!!

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Can you get a shock from it all else being well with the installation?

No?

Then it's not immediately dangerous is it!!!

beggers belief dunnit Damian...:mad2:

 

[Badged01]

I would consider the lack of an earthing conductor to the MET to be immediately dangerous and hence a C1 (notwithstanding the fact that a fault would have to be present).

I can't knock you there because at the end of the day it's the inspector who decides what he thinks the code should be and he alone on his engineering assessment codes it, no-one else!. However all guidance on the matter to help the inspector decide points towards it being a C2 ....

 

[Badged01]

... but if you code it C1, what immediate action are you going to take?

 

[KAS1]

C2 and unsatisfactory for continued use IMO

 

[GLENNSPARK]

C2 and unsatisfactory for continued use IMO

well it aint goin to be a 2..and a pass..is it...lol..

 

[KAS1]

well it aint goin to be a 2..and a pass..is it...lol..

I agree just trying to draw an end to it lol

 

[Robert Turnbull]

C2 and unsatisfactory on this basis

 

[D Skelton]

I can't knock you there because at the end of the day it's the inspector who decides what he thinks the code should be and he alone on his engineering assessment codes it, no-one else!. However all guidance on the matter to help the inspector decide points towards it being a C2 ....

You're right!

That's it! From now on, no 30mA RCD for additional protection gets a C1 from me!

 

[Robert Turnbull]

I can't knock you there because at the end of the day it's the inspector who decides what he thinks the code should be and he alone on his engineering assessment codes it, no-one else!. However all guidance on the matter to help the inspector decide points towards it being a C2 ....

You're right!

That's it! From now on, no 30mA RCD for additional protection gets a C1 from me!

True to an extent but this is clear cut c2

The easiest way to define between c1 and c2 to is basically can this situation cause harm right now exactly how it is.

No earth can't, it just has the potential to under fault conditions

So C2

 

[Badged01]

That's it! From now on, no 30mA RCD for additional protection gets a C1 from me!

Steady on, thats not given you carte blanche to do what you want!

 

[Marvo]

Can you get a shock from it all else being well with the installation?

No?

Then it's not immediately dangerous is it!!!

I can't help playing devils advocate on this one.

Given the earth is functional as well as protective if the main earth is missing I'd say it would be reasonable to expect touch voltages of CPC to rise as electronic appliances are connected or even if there's an everyday surge or spike that causes surge arrestors to conduct. Neither of these events would be classed as faults so I could see the case for declaring it an immediate danger therefore I could see the case for declaring it a C1 issue.

 

[Badged01]

Thats the beauty of an EICR, you as the inspector decides what you think the code should be based on your engineering assessment of the situation! If you live in a high 'surge' area, or have lots of electronics attached, or anything else that may introduce voltage onto the 'earth' then you may well declare it a C1 -- thats your engineering judgement!

If nothing of the sort exists then as a general rule C2 is recommended.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

You're right!

That's it! From now on, no 30mA RCD for additional protection gets a C1 from me!

dont tell me you`v come to your senses D...lol...


RCDs...salvation...

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Steady on, thats not given you carte blanche to do what you want!

no your quite right..

he needs to attend a course to do that..

about 5 weeks i think...

 

[ipf]

no your quite right..

he needs to attend a course to do that..

about 5 weeks i think...

Nah!!! you both need to do your 14th edition to bring you in line.:tongue3:

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Nah!!! you both need to do your 14th edition to bring you in line.:tongue3:

well definately a bolt on then..

christ help the Electrical Trainee working to this when they cant even get their tiny minds round a main bond...

 

[Eddiesparks]

I think it 's not just 5WWs doing stuff like this - there are other factors. Firstly, as everyone knows , an eicr can bring in more work! There is still, and it's more prevalent in more technical trades, a (rightful!) distrust of sparks because people can make stuff up to get remedial work. Not sure how you can get round this one!!??

Secondly, there is a lot of hearsay - ppl taking stuff as read without thinking about it or looking at BGB. Eg - 12v light fittings/fans in bathrooms etc etc etc. I know I have been guilty of this but I am learning and am humble enough to be corrected.

But...solid education basis can definitely steer the 2nd kind of person - if it is drilled into them to question everything and how to use regs book well that helps too!

As for the cheating cowboys, I like to think that those blokes will never truly be successful and society and economics has a way of sorting wheat from chaff and honest from dishonest.

The only thing that can buck the trend is £millions spent on advertising, PR and marketing in the name of looking after people's world.

PREACH IT