EICR what code for inaccessible socket

[Julie.]

So if I just quote a regs number without description that is better in your opinion?

No, absolutely not.

The document has several audiences, there is the high-level manager's view which is the basic summary on the first page - the installation is/is not suitable type of thing, there is the user's view which is the written descriptions "cable in airing cupboard has insufficient mechanical protection " and so on.

Then there is the detailed information, which is useful only for technical purposes, such as the whole test schedules - how could the end user understand cable installation 102; r1+r2 = 0.87(then some form of odd squiggle - they aren't to know it means ohms - whatever they are) and so on, to my mind this detailed aspect of the report should include the regulation information, so the unprotected cable - if this was claimed to be 522.6.?? (Can't remember the actual reg) - protection needed for ag2 environment - at least the person carrying out the repair could read it and actually identify what the issue is, and realise where the writer got it wrong!

I gave the mot example because this follows exactly the same principles, the summary pass/fail, the description suitable for me the vehicle owner, and finally the actual code specific such that the mechanics could identify not only is there a leak but it is on the engine/gearbox/whatever - as this is identified by the code, which yes is meaningless to me

 

[Grant1987]

Definitely should be a description in 'laymans' terms imo - particularly where the person requesting the report is domestic - might well be different for a large commercial or industrial installation. The reg no by itself doesn't always specify the problem and needs further clarification. For domestic, the descripton is more important than the reg no, but it does add something and looks more 'official' imo than just a description. (Check out Dave Savery's latest video for some crackers).

The only thing I don't like about my software is that it adds the reg number then just adds 'is recommended for improvement' - but I have a list of phrases for common issues now.

Yes is a mixed bag and I wish I knew all the regs numbers off top of my head but as I’ve said before I know what’s wrong, right and then borderline which is where places like this forum help us to improve and gain more knowledge. The commercial side most definately takes more time and more thought process that’s why they take much longer to test/certify due to the complex regulations compared to the domestic. Moral of story is give description and regs number when listing recommendations
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No, absolutely not.

The document has several audiences, there is the high-level manager's view which is the basic summary on the first page - the installation is/is not suitable type of thing, there is the user's view which is the written descriptions "cable in airing cupboard has insufficient mechanical protection " and so on.

Then there is the detailed information, which is useful only for technical purposes, such as the whole test schedules - how could the end user understand cable installation 102; r1+r2 = 0.87(then some form of odd squiggle - they aren't to know it means ohms - whatever they are) and so on, to my mind this detailed aspect of the report should include the regulation information, so the unprotected cable - if this was claimed to be 522.6.?? (Can't remember the actual reg) - protection needed for ag2 environment - at least the person carrying out the repair could read it and actually identify what the issue is, and realise where the writer got it wrong!

I gave the mot example because this follows exactly the same principles, the summary pass/fail, the description suitable for me the vehicle owner, and finally the actual code specific such that the mechanics could identify not only is there a leak but it is on the engine/gearbox/whatever - as this is identified by the code, which yes is meaningless to me

I’m not disagreeing with you Julie, i would love to be able to give the regs number straight off when writing my description but for those of us who aren’t doing it digitally then it becomes more difficult although I do prefer the digital software and will definitely be going back to it ASAP looks more professional ?

 

[Julie.]

Yes is a mixed bag and I wish I knew all the regs numbers off top of my head but as I’ve said before I know what’s wrong, right and then borderline which is where places like this forum help us to improve and gain more knowledge. The commercial side most definately takes more time and more thought process that’s why they take much longer to test/certify due to the complex regulations compared to the domestic. Moral of story is give description and regs number when listing recommendations
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I’m not disagreeing with you Julie, i would love to be able to give the regs number straight off when writing my description but for those of us who aren’t doing it digitally then it becomes more difficult although I do prefer the digital software and will definitely be going back to it ASAP looks more professional ?

This is one good aspect of the nappit guide, it's fairly easy to find the text to an issue, and the corresponding reg is listed.

Personally when I receive an eicr and it hasn't cross referenced the appropriate regs, I treat it with much suspicion, and it usually does have "dodgy" observations.

The best i like to see is something like "cable to smoker's area damaged exposing armour" -C3 regulation 522.xx.xx

But so many state "cable needs replacing" c2 £275+vat - which is useless in every regard


Just look at this thread, because the eicr has no reference to the reg, the inspector has provided suspicious evasive answers, and we end up with a huge range of posts and guessing about what the hell these codes have been given for.

The op is left in a mess because once the eicr is produced and it is not satisfactory - potentially for completely nonsense reasons, he either gets a new professional eicr or pays for work that may not actually be needed

 

[Grant1987]

This is one good aspect of the nappit guide, it's fairly easy to find the text to an issue, and the corresponding reg is listed.

Personally when I receive an eicr and it hasn't cross referenced the appropriate regs, I treat it with much suspicion, and it usually does have "dodgy" observations.

The best i like to see is something like "cable to smoker's area damaged exposing armour" -C3 regulation 522.xx.xx

But so many state "cable needs replacing" c2 £275+vat - which is useless in every regard


Just look at this thread, because the eicr has no reference to the reg, the inspector has provided suspicious evasive answers, and we end up with a huge range of posts and guessing about what the hell these codes have been given for.

The op is left in a mess because once the eicr is produced and it is not satisfactory - potentially for completely nonsense reasons, he either gets a new professional eicr or pays for work that may not actually be needed

I think your being a bit harsh on the description there? Lol “cable needs replacing” £275 it should be more like 6mm pvc/pvc cable supplying 10kw shower protected by 40A mcb. Cable csa undersized for load requirement and mcb not suitable for cable selection.

 

[Julie.]

I think your being a bit harsh on the description there? Lol “cable needs replacing” £275 it should be more like 6mm pvc/pvc cable supplying 10kw shower protected by 40A mcb. Cable csa undersized for load requirement and mcb not suitable for cable selection.

Nope, that one was pretty much word for word off an eicr on a hotel/restaurant - they had lights fed via a swa cable in a smoker's shelter for staff away from the actual hotel, the swa had been hit by big metal wheely bins .

 

[Grant1987]

Nope, that one was pretty much word for word off an eicr on a hotel/restaurant - they had lights fed via a swa cable in a smoker's shelter for staff away from the actual hotel, the swa had been hit by big metal wheely bins .

Wow, that’s a bad description very blunt too he cudn be arsed to elaborate did he? Lol point taken but I still think a good description is more beneficial not a vague one

 

[Julie.]

Wow, that’s a bad description very blunt too he cudn be arsed to elaborate did he? Lol point taken but I still think a good description is more beneficial not a vague one

You would be surprised how many are like that though - ok I probably only see the bad ones as they get passed through to me, the good ones can be delt with by the owners or similar.

But it really reads like an excuse for justification of work, and dodgy reports soo often it gives me a very jaded view of the whole eicr thing, too many people not actually capable of producing a genuine report or understanding what they are doing, and using it as a sales aid .

Write a sh*t report - making sure that you detail a load of stuff that's easy to do but you can charge a lot for.

 

[Grant1987]

You would be surprised how many are like that though - ok I probably only see the bad ones as they get passed through to me, the good ones can be delt with by the owners or similar.

But it really reads like an excuse for justification of work, and dodgy reports soo often it gives me a very jaded view of the whole eicr thing, too many people not actually capable of producing a genuine report or understanding what they are doing, and using it as a sales aid .

Write a sh*t report - making sure that you detail a load of stuff that's easy to do but you can charge a lot for.

It’s pretty evident when you have a report carried out by a competent electrician by the terminology I used to be slack with my words but always looking to improve. When the description is vague it looks dodgy but with proper electrical terminology it becomes clear that the person carrying out EICR understands what they are talking about

 

[Zerax]

Ok I’m not disagreeing here but what is better giving a description or just giving regs number? I know giving both is the perfect scenario but in my opinion the description outweighs the regs number

I was saying we should have a description in plain English and the relevant reg number.

 

[richy3333]

So if cables below 2.4m need to be covered then doesn't that cause issues with most sheds in the uk?

 

[Adelaide]

So if cables below 2.4m need to be covered then doesn't that cause issues with most sheds in the uk?

Anyone know what reg states that cables below 2.4m need protection Eg plastic trunking.?

 

[ChrisElectrical88]

Anyone know what reg states that cables below 2.4m need protection Eg plastic trunking.?

There isn’t one in BS7671.
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Unless they are single insulated cables, but these need to be in conduit or trunking above 2.4m aswell ?

 

[Julie.]

Anyone know what reg states that cables below 2.4m need protection Eg plastic trunking.?

Nope, there isn't a specific regulation, hence why we are struggling to understand the logic of such an observation

There is a regulation around 522.6.xx regarding the need for impact protection on all cables, but that is for environments such as industrial (classed as ag2 or ag3) and so on, it does not apply to domestic which is ag1.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Anyone know what reg states that cables below 2.4m need protection Eg plastic trunking.?

I can confidently say there is no such regulation in BS7671.

 

[Adelaide]

I can confidently say there is no such regulation in BS7671.

Thank you everyone for your comments. I feel confident now in asking my electrician to reconsider his C2 grading for the shower cable in the airing cupboard. Also anyone know any reg that says you can't have a washing machine plugged into a wall socket under kitchen worktop? It may not be ideal location but what reg says it's dangerous or illegal??

 

[Julie.]

Thank you everyone for your comments. I feel confident now in asking my electrician to reconsider his C2 grading for the shower cable in the airing cupboard. Also anyone know any reg that says you can't have a washing machine plugged into a wall socket under kitchen worktop? It may not be ideal location but what reg says it's dangerous or illegal??

Again there isn't anything specific in this regard.

In fact a socket outlet is considered suitable for isolation.

I haven't looked, but I assume you are in England, in which case the English building regulations apply, these specifically provide guidance, notably that with appliances under worktops that the plug/socket outlet should be accessible when the appliance is moved out; and integrated appliances should be connected via a socket outlet, fused connection unit, or suitable switch readily accessible without removing the integrated appliance.

However these are just guidance and good practice not absolute requirements so should not indicate any codeable observation, I would always include them, but not c3 and certainly not c2

 

[westward10]

Thank you everyone for your comments. I feel confident now in asking my electrician to reconsider his C2 grading for the shower cable in the airing cupboard. Also anyone know any reg that says you can't have a washing machine plugged into a wall socket under kitchen worktop? It may not be ideal location but what reg says it's dangerous or illegal??

You need to be asking your electrician what Regulations are being deviated from.

 

[Adelaide]

Again there isn't anything specific in this regard.

In fact a socket outlet is considered suitable for isolation.

I haven't looked, but I assume you are in England, in which case the English building regulations apply, these specifically provide guidance, notably that with appliances under worktops that the plug/socket outlet should be accessible when the appliance is moved out; and integrated appliances should be connected via a socket outlet, fused connection unit, or suitable switch readily accessible without removing the integrated appliance.

However these are just guidance and good practice not absolute requirements.

Yes I'm in England, and yes socket is accessible when appliance is moved out. So no way can socket be C2.

Again there isn't anything specific in this regard.

In fact a socket outlet is considered suitable for isolation.

I haven't looked, but I assume you are in England, in which case the English building regulations apply, these specifically provide guidance, notably that with appliances under worktops that the plug/socket outlet should be accessible when the appliance is moved out; and integrated appliances should be connected via a socket outlet, fused connection unit, or suitable switch readily accessible without removing the integrated appliance.

However these are just guidance and good practice not absolute requirements.

Yes I'm in England and yes the socket is accessible if the appliance is moved. So no way can this socket be C2.

 

[Dartlec]

It's not usually as simple as a reg that says one thing or another is dangerous or illegal - but briefly, there are 4 types of isolation/switching in the regs, but a plug and socket arrangement is allowed for all of them but emergency switching. (though ideally not behind the appliance of course).

From a quick read, I don't think the regs on emergency switching would apply to a washing machine in a domestic installation, as it's more concerned with the electrical risks than the risk of water flooding the place - and emergency isolation is available at the fusebox.

Building regulations may be a separate issue, but they are not what an EICR is covering.

So while it's not ideal, I'm not of the opinion that it is "potentially dangerous", a C2. That has to be a higher standard than just 'bad practise'.

Opinions can vary of course, but it may be worth asking him to back up his issue with reference to a regulation or available guidance.

 

[Adelaide]

Again there isn't anything specific in this regard.

In fact a socket outlet is considered suitable for isolation.

I haven't looked, but I assume you are in England, in which case the English building regulations apply, these specifically provide guidance, notably that with appliances under worktops that the plug/socket outlet should be accessible when the appliance is moved out; and integrated appliances should be connected via a socket outlet, fused connection unit, or suitable switch readily accessible without removing the integrated appliance.

However these are just guidance and good practice not absolute requirements.

Yes I'm in England, and yes socket is accessible when appliance is moved out. So no way can socket be C2.

You need to be asking your electrician what Regulations are being deviated from.

I have emailed the electrician to reconsider his C2 grading. I'll let you know if I get a reply.

 

[westward10]

You need to ask him what Regulations are being breached.

 

[Grant1987]

I was saying we should have a description in plain English and the relevant reg number.

What about plain welsh and regs number? Lol

 

[Julie.]

What about plain welsh and regs number? Lol

There's no such thing as plain Welsh!

 

[Adelaide]

There's no such thing as plain Welsh!

Hi Julie. Can you tell me what qualifications someone needs to legally do eicr. ?

 

[Julie.]

Hi Julie. Can you tell me what qualifications someone needs to legally do eicr. ?

None!

The requirement - depends on your region or purpose is basically that you are competent.

If it's for rental properties then it's worded slightly different than for general EICR (Which by the way is the name of the report - not the actual inspection/process which is actually a periodic inspection and test - although everyone uses the terms interchangeably).

In this case, it uses the terms qualified and competent although they aren't really defined.

In practice most people doing these tend to be part of a competent person scheme which has additional rules, however most of these are really aimed at initial work etc - basically the general installation work an electrician will do day to day.

So in practice an electrician will do their initial training, learn things like the building and wiring regulations, have experience of installation, and have their installation work checked, show they have insurance and so on.

Some people have limited qualifications (Domestic installer for example) - in which case their scheme won't usually cover them for other work like periodic inspections. Others may be fully covered as they did a full apprenticeship, but unfortunately may not have the full depth of experience needed due to being fairly recently qualified.

It isn't a great situation in my opinion, you could have someone with fantastic experience and knowledge of the regs - basically they would do a fantastic and truthful job, has insurance etc, but don't look too good on paper - for instance not in a scheme; and someone else who is in a scheme, but has limited experience, perhaps only knowing what is correct now, with no idea of previous standard or work practices, and therefore "overreacts" throwing C1's and C2's around like confetti.

Which one would people go for - the likelihood is the second one as general guidance is to use someone on the competent persons scheme.

Unfortunately I feel a few unscrupulous ones are seeing it all as an opportunity to get easy work for which they often overcharge as well.

 

[Zerax]

From my experience... some of the best EICRs that I've seen have been from guys that I know are not members of a scam. And vice versa... some of the worst from guys that are fully apprenticed, have been in the industry for years and AC scam members etc.

So I think alot of it boils down to the individual... if you're conscientious about your work, take pride in producing something that you're proud to put your name to etc., everything else is secondary.

It happens in other industries too... some the the best house surveys I've seen have been from non-chartered surveyors... some of the worst from one of the 'big boy' outfits.

And let's not forget British Gas... not a great reputation... but they should be the best !!

 

[Robbieross]

Or mark it down as an operational limitation. Sometimes we find furniture that is way to heavy and/or expensive to move. I dont think you can code a socket inaccessible in this circumstance as a C2 (or any code)

Yes I have a massive piano - organ totally unmovable and due an electrical inspection and was worried and looked for an answer and glad I found it here. I imagine I won't get an answer as thread too old but can you mdo an inspection and leave out a couple of sockets? One in each room that are basically inaccessible due to another massive filing cabinet (full!)

 

[SJD]

Yes I have a massive piano - organ totally unmovable and due an electrical inspection and was worried and looked for an answer and glad I found it here. I imagine I won't get an answer as thread too old but can you mdo an inspection and leave out a couple of sockets? One in each room that are basically inaccessible due to another massive filing cabinet (full!)

Yes, there are often inaccessible sockets such as behind difficult-to-move furniture. If in use e.g. with an extension lead, I can maybe test at the end of that extension lead. Otherwise I put them down as operational limitations, e.g. "Socket behind large piano inaccessbile and not tested".

It only becomes a problem if there is a fault with the circuit (e.g. lack of ring continuity), and (for the remedial work) it looks like the fault could be at this socket. That has happened to me once or twice.

 

[mainline]

So if cables below 2.4m need to be covered then doesn't that cause issues with most sheds in the uk?

If there were such a reg for cables below 2.4mtrs wouldn't that make any flex cable hanging from a socket non-compliant or would it be argued that it's not fixed wiring, whichever way it's a nonsense.

 

[timhoward]

If there were such a reg for cables below 2.4mtrs wouldn't that make any flex cable hanging from a socket non-compliant or would it be argued that it's not fixed wiring, whichever way it's a nonsense.

Ooooh - welcome to arms - see you for a virtual pint later ;-)

 

[mainline]

In fact a socket outlet is considered suitable for isolation.

Does that include an SP socket outlet on a TT earthing system For isolation, Just asking.

 

[mainline]

What about plain welsh and regs number? Lol

mae'r holl Gymraeg yn blaen ac yn hawdd i'w darllen

 

[davesparks]

Does that include an SP socket outlet on a TT earthing system For isolation, Just asking.

Yes of course it does, you can't get much more isolated than pulling the plug out!

 

[mainline]

Yes of course it does, you can't get much more isolated than pulling the plug out!

Well there is that but how about using the switch as isolation.

 

[Julie.]

Well there is that but how about using the switch as isolation.

Yes and no.

For operational switching yes, but for true isolation, no.

Just the same as TN-C-S etc, isolation means disconnection of all live conductors - so no one should work on portable appliances etc whilst still plugged in even if switched off.

 

[mainline]

Yes and no.

For operational switching yes, but for true isolation, no.

Just the same as TN-C-S etc, isolation means disconnection of all live conductors - so no one should work on portable appliances etc whilst still plugged in even if switched off.

Julie. said:
In fact, a socket outlet is considered suitable for isolation.



I was led to believe that TN doesn't need DP, so for TN it would be ok.
But was wondering how that's going to work on a TT where you require DP and the socket outlet is SP.

As set out in table 537.4

 

[Julie.]

Julie. said:
In fact, a socket outlet is considered suitable for isolation.



I was led to believe that TN doesn't need DP, so for TN it would be ok.
But was wondering how that's going to work on a TT where you require DP and the socket outlet is SP.

As set out in table 537.4

A socket outlet is DP because when you un-plug you disconnect both line and neutral.

Isolation is therefore achieved for both live conductors irrespective of TT or any TNx arrangement.

 

[mainline]

A socket outlet is DP because when you un-plug you disconnect both line and neutral.

Isolation is therefore achieved for both live conductors irrespective of TT or any TNx arrangement.

I get that obviously if you disconnect the item entirely it's isolated, but they don't say unplug, they say switch.

Isolation: 537.2​

Every circuit / installation must be provided with a method of isolation from the supply. This isolation device should also be provided with a method to prevent unintentional or inadvertent reinstating (usually lockable).

In a TN-S or TN-C-S system it is not necessary to isolate / switch the neutral conductor providing that it is ‘reliably’ connected to Earth on the distributors incoming supply side.

It’s worth remembering that semiconductor devices can not be used as isolating devices.

Switching off for mechanical maintenance: 537.3​

Mechanical maintenance is work that does not involve exposure to electrical connections. As such this work is often undertaken by ‘ordinary persons’.

Examples: Cleaning, adjusting or replacing parts of a machine. Replacing lamps in a fluorescent light.

Isolating devices must be able to SWITCH the full load current and should be local to the equipment. More often than not the main isolating device is also used for mechanical maintenance for machinery as it’s close by and lockable. Other devices may be used such as, fused connection units, double pole switches and plugs and sockets.

 

[Julie.]

I get that obviously if you disconnect the item entirely it's isolated, but they don't say unplug, they say switch.

Isolation: 537.2​

Every circuit / installation must be provided with a method of isolation from the supply. This isolation device should also be provided with a method to prevent unintentional or inadvertent reinstating (usually lockable).

In a TN-S or TN-C-S system it is not necessary to isolate / switch the neutral conductor providing that it is ‘reliably’ connected to Earth on the distributors incoming supply side.

It’s worth remembering that semiconductor devices can not be used as isolating devices.

Switching off for mechanical maintenance: 537.3​

Mechanical maintenance is work that does not involve exposure to electrical connections. As such this work is often undertaken by ‘ordinary persons’.

Examples: Cleaning, adjusting or replacing parts of a machine. Replacing lamps in a fluorescent light.

Isolating devices must be able to SWITCH the full load current and should be local to the equipment. More often than not the main isolating device is also used for mechanical maintenance for machinery as it’s close by and lockable. Other devices may be used such as, fused connection units, double pole switches and plugs and sockets.

Look at table 537.4 in detail,

It has an entry for switched sockets, they are suitable for functional switching and isolation.

Then look at the entry for UNSWITCHED sockets, once again they are suitable for BOTH functional switching and isolation.

So if indeed isolation can only be achieved by switches, this could not be possible!

You can provide isolation via disconnection (where circumstances allow)

A standard bs1363 plug and socket can be disconnected under load by pulling the plug out - I think it is covered in one of the notes associated with table 537.4

In fact the suitability of sockets is noted as the last part of your extract:

"Other devices may be used such as, fused connection units, double pole switches and plugs and sockets."

 

[Sensei]

From memory the cable comes through wall from bathroom (or maybe down from ceiling) and runs along inside wall of airing cupboard, fixed to wall by clips, then into power shower pump. So not subject to movement or rubbing

It could be a temperature issue with the cable and being suitable for the environment if it gets hot in there so maybe a comment about I higher temp tolerant cable (like flex) but id not c2 it

 

[mainline]

There's no such thing as plain Welsh!

BTW the Welsh for microwave is: popty ping

 

[DPG]

I'm going to start a sweepstake on how long it is before mainline gets barred from the arms

 

[mainline]

I'm going to start a sweepstake on how long it is before mainline gets barred from the arms

Julie wouldn't do that to a fellow Welsh person

 

[mainline]

Julie wouldn't do that to a fellow Welsh person

Notice I was careful with my words and didn't say Welshman.

I agree with the optimistic, she would get Westward to do it

 

[Julie.]

Notice I was careful with my words and didn't say Welshman.

I agree with the optimistic, she would get Westward to do it

Not Welsh!

Don't care!

 

[richy3333]

Yes I have a massive piano - organ totally unmovable and due an electrical inspection and was worried and looked for an answer and glad I found it here. I imagine I won't get an answer as thread too old but can you mdo an inspection and leave out a couple of sockets? One in each room that are basically inaccessible due to another massive filing cabinet (full!)

Yes totally. Just make sure its explained in the report. You're not a furniture mover! Manual handling etc!