I am looking to join a competent person scheme and would rather ELECSA but due to peoples lack of knowledge I am considering NICEIC.
I dont think its fair that these home diy programmes all mention NICEIC as this gives the impression that they are the only one you can belong to.
Something has to be done as surely it borders on monopolising (through no fault though of NICEIC).
Surely programmes which in the past have been on BBC should not solely be plugging one company as this (what I thought) is against their regulations.
Lettings agencies seem to believe its NICEIC or nothing - I think it makes them seem like they have knowledge by mentioning them letters in a sentence - when in fact they dont seem to have a clue.
i actually spoke to Jean Mickle about this issue a couple of weeks ago and she has given me her number for any members that are having issues with local authorities etc to speak to her on 0845 634 9043
It's not a question of right or wrong, the client can specify a particular trade body if they wish, it's often just down to the fact that on the rare occasion someone does know of a trade body, it's normally the NICEIC!
If they want an inspection report that may very well be "signed" by a competent person, but very possibly, carried out by a person with little or no training,then by all means choose an Niceic company
If you prefer to be assured that the person carrying out the report is actually trained to do so,either make sure the Niceic operative is actually qualified or the Qualifying supervisor does the on site inspection and the report ( unskilled labourers tend to do poor Pirs )
Or chose from an equivalent scheme ,such as Elecsa or Napit where the individuals competence is assessed
I may need educating here also, but do PIR's come under the scope of the Elecsa part p scheme??? for instance with the NIC they are a bolt on to DI status.
What I mean is are they included in your enrolment or are they an optional extra??? Or do you have to join Elecsa's big brother the ECA???
Sadly it is as IQ said, anyone can ask for whatever scheme memebership they want
I may need educating here also, but do PIR's come under the scope of the Elecsa part p scheme??? for instance with the NIC they are a bolt on to DI status.
What I mean is are they included in your enrolment or are they an optional extra??? Or do you have to join Elecsa's big brother the ECA???
Sadly it is as IQ said, anyone can ask for whatever scheme membership they want
This is what gets me, there is nothing in law requiring a person carrying out a PIR to be registered with any competent person schemes, we have become our own worst enemies by allowing NICEIC NAPIT etc to add this as part of your scope. This is outside of their scope and what part P was put in place to achieve.
But as good sheep we do what they say.
When we should be reporting them for anti competitive behaviour any attempting to create a cartel, this is essentially what they are doing and you as scheme members are allowing them to get away with it.
I believe Elecsa require a bolt on fee too for PIR's?
The thing is, no scheme provider is saying 'you can't do a PIR' they are saying if you wish to be assessed anually and carry out PIR's under our scheme name then you have to pay a fee for the privilege.
Personally, I think it's ********, but unfortunately, the big myth among specifiers and Joe Public is that you have to be backed up by a scheme.
I totally agree it is *******, but if everybody said stuff adding the extra Joe Public would not be able to get a scheme backed PIR as none of us would sign up for it then the scheme provider would not make any money from it and quickly drop it.
never ending pay out circle that comes alongside the trade. i once a long time ago thought when you qualified and got the relevant experience apart from the occasional update course and insurance that that was it..... umm how wrong was i everyone wants a bit.
Guys i have had the same problem Elecsa are brilliant when this happens i did a periodic on a rental property ,all ok no probles with it did her the certs all printed and it was refused and the letting agents sent out their electricians and guss what it was fine no problems and charged the customer £50 more than i charged so it cost her twice for the inspection spoke to elecsa about it and they delt with it
The fee alows you to use ELECSA headed forms. Yes they are taking money from you, but as said above, ELECSA cover you for 3 years, so their fee is quite low. Playing devils advocate, but is this not quality control, and if sold to your customers correctly should be able to boost your credibility..........Flack jacket on
In reality what are the benifits with any of them just you can use their logo , ive been with elecsa since i started on my own 3 years ago assesment in December , im not worried about it , as i know the guys are there to help you out yes maybe i may not answer the some of the questions correctly , they are there to help you out , and the real benifit is if i need technical advice its there the technical guys are 2nd to none
I am with elecsa, and do not pay the extra for PIR guidance (or whatever it is that the fee is for), I use the elecsa headed PIR forms though and have been told this is ok by elecsa assessor.
I assume that you could use say the Approved Domestic Installer or Approved Contractor logo on you PIR form if say you are with NICEIC, after all you are one of these what could they possibly do about it? Maybe they will intoriduce another one, somthing like Approved Periodic Inspector?
It really gets up my nose,
And just found this on the NICEIC website
Please see our Virtual PIR Coursedetails as domestic installers who successfully complete this course will gain automatic extension to do domestic PIR work.
For those of you aghast at the cost of the NIC Virtual PIR course, to be fair, that is quite innovative and technically not easy to put together. Don't think because it is computer based it is equivalent to the Gola exams used by C&G, this appears to be much more sophisticated. Although it is a lot of money, compared with a lot of traditionally taught courses, it is probably quite good value for money. And if you get to keep the discs/program after completing the course, even better value. The main problem with it will be the transition from a virtual environment on the computer to a real life environment in a property. It is no real substitute for several years experience, but in these days where experience for newcomers is increasingly hard to access, in my opinion this is a step in the right direction. About the only positive thing I can say about the NIC.
I may need educating here also, but do PIR's come under the scope of the Elecsa part p scheme??? for instance with the NIC they are a bolt on to DI status.
What I mean is are they included in your enrolment or are they an optional extra??? Or do you have to join Elecsa's big brother the ECA???
Sadly it is as IQ said, anyone can ask for whatever scheme memebership they want
I thought once you had your 2391 your were qualified enough to carry out a PIR is this right?
I don't understand what this extra fee is for, surely you either have your 2391 or you don't.
Here's what Elecsa say on their website ELECSA - Periodics
The 2391 and some experience should be enough to prove competency and of course proving competency is all that is needed to carry out a Periodic Inspection.
The scheme providers that charge a fee are saying 'yes, you can carry out a Periodic Inspection but to do it under the jurasdiction of our scheme will cost you £---'
So basically, you pay to say "this is a PIR for which I am anually/tri-anually assessed by my scheme provider, giving you the customer a higher chance of receiving a complete, genuine report".
It's up to you to decide on the value of being able to make the above statement!
IN Reality Part P is the same we have to regester to carry out our jobs goes to the council who never inspect our work they send out a certificate and thats it in these crunch times i feel its a waste whats another piece of paper the certificate should be enough this country is full of male cow excriment . ,what we need is the green card as austrailia then thats it only qualified guys can do the work its simple as that
Had a situation like this here in Edinburgh I was called by a lady who was renting out her flat she asked me if I was Part P registered or registered with the likes of NICEIC when I explained no she said well I cannot use you then I highlighted to her that Part P does not exist in Scotland plus although there is a Certification scheme it is not compulsory I also said that I got this verified by Select (grudgingly) and that because of this Edinburgh District Council will accept a colour photocopy of your grade card front & back plus a copy of your testers calibration certificate.
I also had the same problem when Screwfix was just about to open Electrofix in Scotland they informed me that I could not be a memember because I was not registered with NICEIC or Part P yet again I explained and this time their manager phoned me 2 days later when I informed him that legally I did not have to be registered and that Part P did not and will never come into Scotland I also informed him that Screwfix could be sued for descrimination as again it was not compulsery to be registered also i tiold him it was illegal to force English law in Scotland. Off he went and 2 hours later called back to confirm all that I had said plus he said bring your Grade card along and we will register you with Electrofix.
So whats the problem ? well yes it is good to be registered but these schemes have become money making machines for the people who want us to go down this road but here is the sticking point because these schemes are not compulsery in affect these people are taking a risk saying it is as in my view I could sue them for running a monopoly plus loss off earnings as they have no authority to do so. Hence why a district council has to accept credentials from qualified people who can prove they are not a cowboy but in fact a "Law abiding citizen" trying to make an honest crust.
Let me leave you with this many years ago I started an burglar alarm business giving good service and working to BS4737 at the time the same thing happened the public were brainwashed into he is not registered and he cannot get registered because he needs 4 employees in his company.So I had to sit back and watch a guy who "fell" into alarms employed his 2 sons (not qualified)and his daughter (this makes 4) mop up a pile of work because he was registered and was no way doing work to the standards and 25 years later I feel that I am watching a old video because yet again the electrical industry has picked up on this and it makes good money thank you very much. I hope someone from these registration companies reads this because they are sailing close to the wind when they push the you have to be registered because the law will not tolerate a monopoly and funny enough European law will not allow and individual to be descriminated like this dont get me wrong I am not having a rant for the sake of it but I am saying if these schemes are to work they need to be done right or just like the alarm industry big registered companies will be allowed to cut corners and the problem is people who are meant to police it will do nothing because the abuse has went on to long and they will look negligent so they will have to keep up appearances and then all trust in the system is lost and some bright spark (excuse the pun) will move for a improved registration system to be rolled out.
I have had a go at a number of insurance companies over the years insisting on NACOSS (or the other different names it's used) I have found if you stand up to them and argue your corner they tend to back down especially when you put to them the restrictive and unfair practices they employing to keep your business out of fair and competive work and forcing the customer to pay a premium price for the work. I was SSAIB and it took alot at times to be accepted by insurance companies but in most cases the customer backed me up as they did not want to be dictated to as to their choice of supplier
The same is true of the insurance companies requiring NICEIC PIR's there is a belief only an NICEIC company can issue a PIR because they have exclusive rights to the certificates and this is a comment made during a recent conversation with an insurance company when challenged over their request for an NICEIC PIR. The insurance person sounded a bit stunned when I pointed out they were published in BS7671 and were freely available and also available from the NICEIC for non approved contractors
Anyone who tries to force one approval body on me is asked to explain their restrictive practice I would suggest every one should do the same until these people get the message it is even better when the customer also asks the same question. This practice could be classed as discrimination and we know what that means in our all inclusive society
Good point UNG as I say I have no problem with policing bodies if it is done right but then again I tend to apply my own standards on to them when the whole sytem is designed to be abused at that level and I feel this covers all areas. I recently broke down and the AA took me to Nationwide where it cost me a packet only to find my car was still under warranty when I called the AA they got a bit defensive so I kept probing until the AAs legal department admitted that they got paid a fee from Nationwide not for dropping work off but for Nationwide being allowed to use their signage. So I have voted with my feet on the AA.
Also with regards to alarms I charge a one of fee to service an alarm system and I always explain to the customer remember check your insurance details because if you get a discount for having an alarm you have to have a maintenance contract with a registered company and if you pop out next door for a cup of tea and do not set your alarm then your insurance is null and void "surely not said the customer" and yes they checked and yes I was correct then they asked how much discount do they get for having a maintenance contract and the reply was £19 Well said the customer I want to pay the £19 and get rid of my
£175 a year maintenance contract because I do not want to go on holiday to find my son or daughter forgot to set the alarm and we get broken into. I have also had customers comment on the fact that I actualy service the alarm handing them 2 sheets of info where the alarm company turned up (after they sat in all day) set the alarm off and left without leaving any documentation
then they asked how much discount do they get for having a maintenance contract and the reply was £19 Well said the customer I want to pay the £19 and get rid of my £175 a year maintenance contract
They get an extended warranty and with regards to the customer I quoted if they had took the time to have serviced her system they would have found that it was not wired correctly instead they came in set the alarm off put serviced the alarm on the worksheet and asked for a signature and it all took 15 minutes. The customer also explained that she had paid on average £1500 over the past ten years where she had no need to to call them out once as she said I will notify my insurance company that I have an alarm but do not have a maintenance contract get you to give it a comprehensive service every year and if it does break down I will get it upgraded with a years warranty thrown in because just like British gas the alarm company was telling her that her system needed upgraded due to age
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