Electric heating

[provr6]

I have a victorian property and do not have mains gas at my house and currently use portable electric heating and real fires.

I am considering storage heaters (probably used ones off ebay) and was wondering if there would be any benefit using them not off peak and supplementing some of the electric used to charge them with the solar panels. I suspect not because they will be needed most in the winter when there is less chance of sun.

Also can you switch willy nilly between economy 7 in the winter and standard in the summer.

I have not ruled out other forms of heating such as Air source heat pumps but believe it will be a pain to install the underfloor heating. Gas tanks and oil tanks are options but I don't really like the need for tank storage and topping up. The main disadvantage of these options for me is the initial outlay.

I believe the house had a parkray previously as there is existing radiator pipework installed.

Can anyone give advice as the best way to heat my home cost effectively over a long period as I don't anticipate moving.

 

[telectrix]

aga , or rayburn multi fuel unit. burn all the scrap wood and rubbish you can get hold of.

 

[dansk]

Electric SH are one option and also electric underfloor heating - how many Kwh/per annum do you use at the moment?

 

[provr6]

Electric SH are one option and also electric underfloor heating - how many Kwh/per annum do you use at the moment?

I think it is about 8000.

 

[dansk]

Umm, so a swap to E-UFH could be a good move, the draw back is the removal of the floor covering to each room to install the system and its going to cost more than SH, but it would be more efficient and pleasing to the eye!

 

[provr6]

Would this be best served with an electric boiler or air source heat pump.

I know this would be a good option for my heating needs but its likely to cost about £8k? not to mention the disturbance to the house (although there are no carpets laid).

 

[JulianC]

Storage heaters are the work of Beelzebub, consider them a last resort if all else fails. Have a look at Rointe electric rads and heating systems. Not looked much into them myself yet but they're supposed to be pretty good from what I've heard

 

[dansk]

E-UFH just runs off the main supply which is supplemented by the PV, no ASHP, but you may need an electric boiler for the HW supply to the bathroom etc. If you havent moved into the house yet and have bare floors, then its a straight forward install, depends on the type of floor covering, but laminate is the easiest to do and most cost effective.

 

[telectrix]

bear floor

 

[SolarCity]

Love it!

 

[loskie]

We are in the process of converting a rom into a bathroom and this question was on my mind today.Electric UFH about 4.5m2 on an existing concrete floor topped with laminate, tiles or Rhinofloor when she has decided.Can we have it so a switch operates to power the heat automatically if there is a surplus of electricity from the 3.6kwp solar pv we have. There are only 2 of us in the house and at times of peak production it is often unoccupied(low power demand) so would be a good use of this power. I would also want to reserve the option of having it come on on a timer at times when we wanted it and no Solar available.Help would appreciated thanks.loskie

 

[dansk]

Hi Loskie - 4m² of electric underfloor heating is likely to be 600w, this when used on a timer wouldnt make much difference to your energy consumption on a day to day basis, and the PV would help to offset that usage. I'm unsure how you could direct the PV energy directly to your heated floor.

E-UFH when used with a tile backer board heats up quickly anyway and cools down quickly - so your looking at 2-3 hours usage a day at most i suspect, i doubt its worth going to the expense of special switches etc. just make use of the built in 7 day timer of the stat.

On the other hand - if you built a concrete slab with in-screed cables, this would really benefit from the PV heating up the thermal mass during the day, and the mass releasing heat during the evening.

In terms of floor coverings in a bathroom, tiles would be the most pratical install with laminate next then Rhino floor last. To have a heated Rhino floor you would need to use a under tile cable, and screed over with a two part latex levelling compound, its quite a faff to get it flat enough to bond the Rhino to.

 

[Glen Powell]

Sorry but electric underfloor heating is no good unless you address the rest of the themal loss issues, PV will never suppliment the usage of energy to heat your home, feed in tarrif or not, gas 4p kWh electric 11p kWh, feed in will never make electricity any cheaper for heating as heating is required when there is least sun.

Insulate, then insulate some more, only then will electric underfloor heating be viable, large thermall mass go for oil or gas, small thermall mass go for electric.

Alternative is biomass, wood gasification, woodburner. Well insulated house air source or ribbon underfloor heating.

Do not believe because you have an old house you cannot insulate because you can it is just a bit messy, but worth it in the end.

 

[wiggly]

Air to air heat pump could be installed very easily reduces heating bills 40-60%
reduce co2 emmisinos by 50%,
reduces bacteria in the house can be changed to cool the house in summer if we are really lucky.
BIOMASS could also be an option more expensive however if a business was also registerd at the property then you could get the RHI payment for systems over 45kw in size

feel free to contact me for more in depth info.

 

[The Solar King]

Julian is right, storage heaters are very expensive to run even on cheap rate and are not that controllable. Heat pumps can look viable if comparing to oil, but are a large up front cost. Biomass may be your best option if you can organise a good supply. Wood pellets are the easiest to use but the cost can end up linked to that of fossil fuels.

 

[Glen Powell]

Insulation is the best option cos all the other systems will loose loads of heat without it.

45kw Biomass just for a boiler is going to be around £6,000 to £10,000 + VAT before installation, then you need a buffer vessel, flu, outbuilding to put it in, storage for fuel. Possible heating loop upgrade so could really be anywhere between £15,000 to £20,000 for a proper system based on it being over 40kw, now the fact that you could use less than 20kw means you have massivly oversized the biomass boiler.

A larger than average detached house with double glazing no wall insulation but greater than 75mm loft insulation would require about 11-15kw as it burns continuously unlike a standard boiler that flash heats a room.

 

[sambotc]

Air to air heat pump could be installed very easily reduces heating bills 40-60%
reduce co2 emmisinos by 50%,
reduces bacteria in the house can be changed to cool the house in summer if we are really lucky.
BIOMASS could also be an option more expensive however if a business was also registerd at the property then you could get the RHI payment for systems over 45kw in size

feel free to contact me for more in depth info.

An air to air heat pump would be liking urinating into the wind in a house like this is reckon (solid walls,suspended floors, stripped floor boards, large chimneys etc) you'll never keep up with the fabric losses and your COP will be way down low as the compressors running flat out all the time.

VR6 The first thing you need to do is get a heat loss calculation (room by room) to see what your requirements are, secondly see what you can do to reduce the heat loss (insulation etc) and only then can you really make a rational decision on what method of heating will work and how much it will cost to run.

 

[provr6]

I'm aware of the importance of insulation. Being a victorian property I have put 300mm of insulation in the roof space but this is somewhat compromised by also installing loft boards which compresses it down to 100mm in places. In hind sight I could have got insulated backed loft boards to sit ontop of the joists.

I've looked into cavity wall injection and am in two minds. Some say excellent, others state high risk of condensation & mould with a smaller risk of rusting wall ties. My largest external wall is an exposed area of rain and is currently brickwork rendered.

I am in the process of insulating and have got some draughtex for the stripped floorboards, some chimney baloons, insulated loft hatch, draught strips around doors etc. The house is doubled glazed bar 2 windows. I could also take the floorboards up and fit insulation to the first floor.

I know storage heaters are expensive to run but the initial outlay can be small. I currently pay about £1200 per year for all my electricty which is with oil fired heaters albeit it can still be chilly. I think storage heaters would cut this down but suspect I may still feel the chill.

The woodstove boiler option is quite attractive as they are not that expensive and I can source wood for free. I already have copper pipework fitted so would need some new rads. The unknown is how warm and controllable would the heating be?

Neither may not be the best long term solution but I think renewable heating is quite a high outlay and I would not want to commit until I know what the RHI payments would be.

 

[sambotc]

You don;t need to guess on costs etc, you can get a fairly accurate idea or at least comparable across different methods. Firstly you need an idea of your heat loss though. Once you've know what the Kwh of energy needed to keep on top of your heat loss you can relate this to different fuel types along with other running costs and installation costs.

Otherwise it's like asking how much water do you need to fill up a swimming pool, without measuring the swimming pool, if that makes sense!

 

[Glen Powell]

Wood burning stove with a thermal store would be a good option, you would not really heat directly to the radiators, this is quite a cost effective option, however, you do become a slave to the stove so it is good to install other options. If you have roof space you could add solar water heating.

Glad you are addressing the insulation, the gap between the bricks on victorian houses are not that wide and problems can occur, using a vapour barrier with insulated plasterboard in the internal walls may be an option but disruptive.