Fire Alarms

[uksparks]

Hi,

I mentioned on here the other day that I have no experience with fire alarm systems, so....

I was thinking of buying a system to wire up to a board to play around with just to get my head around it etc, I was just looking on safelincs at them. Does anyone know which would be a good one? Like I say, it's just to get my head around it and know what I'm doing to give me a bit more confidence in them for when I eventually have to touch one.

Presumably I want a 2 wire version?

 

[tazz]

There are a few different types on the market, Conventional are 4 wire, 2 wire, Alarmsense, old Twinflex (discontinued) and new Twinflex Pro (no recommended)....And Addressable........... 4 wire, is as it says, 2 wires for detection, and 2 wires for sounders. both monitored circuits.

2 wire systems, have detection and sounders on the same 2 wires, from the zone. They use reverse polarity to sound sirens or bells, notice the sounders are all wired incorrectly,

Alarmsense is wired the same way as 2 wire, with detection and sounders on the same cables...but have the own type of detection and sounders, which can only be used.

Addressable is a 2 wire loop circuit, were each detector, sounder or interface is given a unique id number usually from 1-127, which the panel can identify anywhere on the loop.

hope this gives you a outline of the main systems

 

[ayjay]

why not attend a college course ?

 

[uksparks]

Thanks tazz that's very helpful, I'm just contemplating doing the 3 day fia course, you never know where it will lead to, another string in the bow etc...

 

[uksparks]

I like your pictures by the way, makes perfect sense like that!

 

[tazz]

The FIA courses are well recommended, and compared to electrical courses, are alot cheaper......go with install, commissioning and service at first....and leave the design to others, until you have a few years under you

 

[Sparkie30]

Hi,

I mentioned on here the other day that I have no experience with fire alarm systems, so....

I was thinking of buying a system to wire up to a board to play around with just to get my head around it etc, I was just looking on safelincs at them. Does anyone know which would be a good one? Like I say, it's just to get my head around it and know what I'm doing to give me a bit more confidence in them for when I eventually have to touch one.

Presumably I want a 2 wire version?

seeing that you are you know about fire alarms. ive been asked to quote a job where there is velux ventilation window and needs to be linked with the break glass and smokes so it will open automatically in case it is activated. Must say have not done this before so struggling to understand how to wire it ? Been searching the web , found some info such as if it operated by remote control just put a fused spur next to it also if not take a six core cable to it. not sure still

can you advice me how wiring is carried out if you can please

 

[tazz]

Quiet common in 3 plus story flats.....basically its just a fire alarm panel, without using the sounder circuits. You can use Velux control units, or just a conventional fire panel and power supplies depending on velux actuators being 24v or 230v. basically the the fire alarm relay activates the Velux windows when the fire alarm or velux unit is in fire condition.

 

[atm84]

The FIA courses are well recommended, and compared to electrical courses, are alot cheaper......go with install, commissioning and service at first....and leave the design to others, until you have a few years under you

Who are you kidding? I've just had a look at FIA website. £240 plus VAT for a one day course. Daylight robbery.

 

[tazz]

Hmmm but most on here will pay £4k plus for a quick route course to domestic installer.....Plus there is a reduction for being a member of FIA.

 

[atm84]

(null)

Very true.

 

[uksparks]

Who are you kidding? I've just had a look at FIA website. £240 plus VAT for a one day course. Daylight robbery.

You say that, but some people prefere to learn new things, better there chances with job opportunities etc if it ever gets to it etc, it's something else under your belt and from wht I have read is worth the money and time.

Im ok for work at the moment, slow but ticking along, but should I ever need to try to I get a job with someone then theres a better chance of getting a job the more training in things I have, I'm not one for just having bits of paper, but do believe it helps. I personally like to learn new things and try to have an understanding of things in the event that I come across it one day.

 

[uksparks]

seeing that you are you know about fire alarms. ive been asked to quote a job where there is velux ventilation window and needs to be linked with the break glass and smokes so it will open automatically in case it is activated. Must say have not done this before so struggling to understand how to wire it ? Been searching the web , found some info such as if it operated by remote control just put a fused spur next to it also if not take a six core cable to it. not sure still

can you advice me how wiring is carried out if you can please

Please re read my post, I have no experience with alarms....

 

[tazz]

If you tender for a job these days, the construction company usually ask for a complete package. Electrical installation, fire and EM lighting. This is were we work along side the electrical companies....we design and cad the system, for approval. The sparks wired the system to our drawings, then we commission and hand over. Its a great partnership.

 

[Sparkie30]

Quiet common in 3 plus story flats.....basically its just a fire alarm panel, without using the sounder circuits. You can use Velux control units, or just a conventional fire panel and power supplies depending on velux actuators being 24v or 230v. basically the the fire alarm relay activates the Velux windows when the fire alarm or velux unit is in fire condition.

Thanks for your reply will have to ask what type of velux window is putting up.

 

[Sparkie30]

Please re read my post, I have no experience with alarms....

I'm sorry mate I was meat to ask Tazz. Just realised.

 

[tazz]

Not a problem, Im sure we can help you out with a few diagrams

 

[ayjay]

i think a 3 day fire alarm course is the way to go! just do it then your set up for installing f/alarms for life

 

[Poult12]

AJ - defo worth doing mate so fully agree with Tazz.
Opens a your eyes to some things that you do need to know if you're touching fire alarms.

 

[Harni]

i think a 3 day fire alarm course is the way to go! just do it then your set up for installing f/alarms for life

Sorry but i don't agree with this. There are so many different systems out there which work in various different ways which you can't just learn about in 3 days. Unfortunately i see a lot of systems that have been worked on by people who don't know what they are doing and some of them are just ridiculous.

I would do the FIA units 1,4 and 5 to start with to give you an insight into whats what and then look at getting on various manufacturers courses (most are free but need to be attended to get the software for the panels). Also, don't forget checking your liability insurance covers you to work on fire alarms.

 

[tazz]

Sorry but i don't agree with this. There are so many different systems out there which work in various different ways which you can't just learn about in 3 days. Unfortunately i see a lot of systems that have been worked on by people who don't know what they are doing and some of them are just ridiculous.

I would do the FIA units 1,4 and 5 to start with to give you an insight into whats what and then look at getting on various manufacturers courses (most are free but need to be attended to get the software for the panels). Also, don't forget checking your liability insurance covers you to work on fire alarms.

Sorry but your going off an a tangent....We are talking about entering into the industry, this is basic install of conventional and addressable systems. The FIA in a 1 day insight into installing systems, not design or commissioning, where software maybe needed. Most of the guys moving into the fire industry, are already sparks, so the course gives them an insight into correct install practices.

 

[Harni]

I know its just that i saw Ayjay's comment and thought i would mention that its not a simple industry to take up which unfortunately so many people seem to think it is. I see a lot of sparks that do full systems from design through to commissioning on their own and some of the time, i could write a big list of issues with it. Slapping a panel up on the wall and a few heads here and there isn't hugely difficult especially for a experienced sparky. Getting it all in and working in the correct way however can be unless you know what your doing.

If you are just talking about basic install of a fire install to someone else's design and someone else commissions it, fair enough, unit 1 should suffice but most seem to go on to doing it all them selves.

Just in my opinion of course

 

[davesparks]

Don't go worrying about ayjays comment.
He appears on threads all over the place and makes little unhelpful and just plain daft comments.

 

[Harni]

Don't go worrying about ayjays comment.
He appears on threads all over the place and makes little unhelpful and just plain daft comments.

Lol fair enough!
Its one of my pet hates with people working with fire alarms and not knowing what they are doing. End of the day, its a life safety system and I've been to sites where alarms haven't worked properly and people have died and its not a nice feeling at all!

 

[uksparks]

Well I only wanted some basic sort of knowledge and enough to go away with so that I have a slight understanding when I come across it.

anyway I have just booked on to Unit 1 and unit 5 at the end of July, this is design for unit 1 and maintenance for unit 5, then in September I'm doing unit 4 which is installation and testing.

then in October I've booked unit 6 which is advanced commissioning. Then in November I'm doing unit 11 which is about BS5839 part 6 for alarm systems in dwellings.

cost a fortune, £240 + vat each, but how I see it, in the long run I'll be a lot better informed and should I ever have to apply for a job etc I should stand a fair chance.

 

[Harni]

The Fia courses are great mate. Very intense but really do give you some good knowledge and you get a nice big book for each course to take away to reference in the future. If i was you though just to get more experience with some of it, get on some of the manufacturers courses. Most of them are free and even if you don't learn anything, you normally get a free lunch lol

 

[tazz]

I know its just that i saw Ayjay's comment and thought i would mention that its not a simple industry to take up which unfortunately so many people seem to think it is. I see a lot of sparks that do full systems from design through to commissioning on their own and some of the time, i could write a big list of issues with it. Slapping a panel up on the wall and a few heads here and there isn't hugely difficult especially for a experienced sparky. Getting it all in and working in the correct way however can be unless you know what your doing.

If you are just talking about basic install of a fire install to someone else's design and someone else commissions it, fair enough, unit 1 should suffice but most seem to go on to doing it all them selves.

Just in my opinion of course

No I understand were you are coming from, and as a BSI trained designer of 20 odd years, have made this point so many times on this forum....so hence the advice always to not just try and install, but get some training in first to understand the principles, and work you way into the industry. Like any other industry, we all have to start somewhere. And as you know, our trade is very short of qualified people.

 

[uksparks]

The only thing with the manufacturer courses is that they are miles away from where I live in Leicester. They are all right down south like Brighton, Poole, Swansea etc, and having a mrs, a 21 month old and a one week old, wanting to go to the south coast for a day isn't too practical.

 

[Harni]

Fair point. The only manufacturers i can think of up your way are Gent or Protec both of which you have to have a funny hand shake to have full access to their kit and training.

 

[uksparks]

Do you have any links to their training course sections on their websites or info at all?

 

[Harni]

If your just getting into alarms, you do not want to do a Gent course to start with. Gent kit is some of the best in the business but they have made up their own dictionary of terminology in comparison to all other manufacturers. Also, when it goes wrong it generally goes big time wrong!
Gent won't even entertain a phone call with you unless you are Gent24 registered and last time i had a chat about that, you had to spend 100k a year with them to be gent 24 registered!

Protec as well will not give training unless you are a registered company with them i believe. No where near as difficult as Gent to get in with them but they aren't like the likes of Kentec or Morley where you can just phone up and book your self on a course.

 

[uksparks]

Hmm I see...

 

[Harni]

C-TEC Training Courses

C-Tec are in Wigan but then thats just as far north for you as it is south for some of the big companies.

Cant think of any others up your way!

 

[ayjay]

hi all ayjay here -61 , started my apprentiship at 15 , meggitt marsh bmth
all this talk about 3 day courses/ 5wwonders is an absolute joke
it took me 4 years then another as an "inprover"
a " short course" what a joke

 

[davesparks]

Then why on earth were you openly advocating a 3 day course in post #18?

 

[uksparks]

hi all ayjay here -61 , started my apprentiship at 15 , meggitt marsh bmth
all this talk about 3 day courses/ 5wwonders is an absolute joke
it took me 4 fu----g years then another as an "inprover"
a " short course" what a joke

Its rude to swear

 

[Poult12]

hi all ayjay here -61 , started my apprentiship at 15 , meggitt marsh bmth
all this talk about 3 day courses/ 5wwonders is an absolute joke
it took me 4 years then another as an "inprover"
a " short course" what a joke

3 day course a joke?

Fail to see how its a joke if you have No clue on what you're getting into; its a great starting point. Contradicting yourself is the biggest joke on this subject which is now getting away from the point Uksparks is looking for.

Tazz is pretty much top of you're list with such info mate; as is a fair few others.

 

[uksparks]

These 1 day courses for each module are not designed to make you an official installer or qualified professional, they are solely designed to give people a basic understanding or certain areas and that they can use that as a starting point. They are not a joke, they are the most widely recognized industry standard courses to do with fire alarms.

 

[ayjay]

the last f/a system i installed was at b&q castlelpoint i didn,t get the knowlege from a 3 day course
post 18 was a take btw

 

[tazz]

Ayjay, I edit your post yet again....last warning on obvious language on a public forum.

 

[Poult12]

the last f/a system i installed was at b&q castlelpoint i didn,t get the knowlege from a 3 day course
post 18 was a take btw

So you're telling all of us that you would have known where to place a detector, call point and sounder without even bothering to go to a FIA course? (Without being told)

 

[ayjay]

yes trainee
the site plan& specification that is used has all of the positions of the tecs and the type of tecs/ zones/ e/lts/ door magnets/ holders too velux window openers -----ect

 

[Poult12]

yes trainee
the site plan& specification that is used has all of the positions of the tecs and the type of tecs/ zones/ e/lts/ door magnets/ holders too velux window openers -----ect

Again would point out that i stated - 'without being told'

 

[ayjay]

just puruse the plans and ask your local fire brigade as we in north korea do

 

[uksparks]

yes trainee
the site plan& specification that is used has all of the positions of the tecs and the type of tecs/ zones/ e/lts/ door magnets/ holders too velux window openers -----ect

Im not saying its mandatory or that you have to have fia training, but personally being new to alarms and having never touched them, even if I was just following plans, I think it's possibly a good idea to get some form of recognised industry training however basic you say it is as its going to help.

Did you wire your first consumer unit from plans or rewire a house just from plans then without any prior training?

 

[uksparks]

just puruse the plans and ask your local fire brigade as we in north korea do

To me that suggests you do not trust your own judgement and workmanship if you are having to get a third party to cast an eye on it, maybe you should go on a short corse to help you gain that confidence.

 

[davesparks]

To me that suggests you do not trust your own judgement and workmanship if you are having to get a third party to cast an eye on it, maybe you should go on a short corse to help you gain that confidence.

Consulting fire officers about these things is pretty normal, why wouldn't you do it?

 

[uksparks]

Dave, I was trying to be sarcastic, I was suggesting that he just installs it without knowing what he was doing then gets someone else to check it. Yes, I know it's quite normal, my dad was in the fire service for 35 years.

 

[tazz]

Consulting fire officers about these things is pretty normal, why wouldn't you do it?

Trusting fire officers will get you into a whole lot of trouble....they know to put fires out, and prevention but that`s about all.
A fire stratorgy report and fire risk assessment, is mandatory document, required for any commercial building. The responsibility for these legal documents, is the owner of the property.

 

[davesparks]

I said consulting them, not outright trusting them!