Fire Hoods and Fire rated D/lights

[martysparky]

If installing fire rated Down lights are fire hoods still required to protect against the thermal effects from the transformer?

If so, do they make them with transformers already protected against the heat emission as the fitting itself?


Any help in this area would be appreciated.


Thanks.

 

[opm electrical]

i would say so cos fire rated lights are only fire rated as they have a compound at the very top of the light that expands and seals any gaps in the event of a fire to seal the gaps between flloors to stop fire spreading through. so it doesnt help with thermal effects in my eyes, but also its not the tranny that is the heat problem its the lamps. they are a rip off though, pactically double the cost of the lihgt fittings

 

[Smugley]

opm, I think you're right there. I reckon there is quite a bit of misunderstanding about fire-rated downlights. I've yet to be convinced that there is a product on the market which can safely be installed directly under insulation. As far as I can tell, the fire rating is ONLY to prevent the progress of fire through the ceiling. They do not prevent the starting of fire due to overheating. I believe even fire-rated downlights need to have adequate ventilation around them and should not be in contact with insulation, dust, mouse droppings, or anything else in a loft space or ceiling void that may be combustable. Please someone tell me if I'm wrong, cos it would make like easier if I was!!

 

[rocker]

Yea I'm seconding smugley there. Fire ratings are purely to stop a fire in the property spreading through the holes in the ceiling easily. You normally find written in the bumf that they will hold back a fire for 60 minutes (long after the wooden tounge and groove ceiling has gone). They aren't designed to stop the tranny or the luminaire itself catching something on fire such as insulation; they aren't designed to put insulation over - as far as I'm aware nothing is safe to put insulation over.

Apparently a clay plant pot (with a hole in the bottom) is just as good as a fire hood. When I first heard this I laughed, but if you think about it it's been fired in a kiln, it's pretty resilient to heat. Don't know how they would hold up in an inspection, mind....

 

[bugsy]

Fire and acoustically rated downlighters function is to maintain the fire / acoustic ratings of the ceilings ,
Do not cover the transformers , the do generate heat but this heat needs to be disapated otherwise the internal thermal loads will start kicking in and they will cut out.

 

[martysparky]

Just wondering what the recommended air space is around the accessories.

I would avoid covering with insulation in any circumstance.

I would much rather put a secondary ceiling in place and improve on the fire resistance of the building.

Fire hoods always a good choice then, I guess compulsory really.

actually on that tip are hoods needed with a secondary ceiling if there is plenty of ventilation. I.e. open around the sides? Not that I would do this in a kitchen because of condensation from the cooker.

Thanks for the input guys.

 

[GaryM]

Fire rated fittings or fire hoods are only required when compromising the fire resistance between fire compartments.

A standard two storey house is one single fire compartment so not required.

If it has an integral garage with a room above then the garage is one compartment and the house is another. Should you foolishly want downlighters in the garage then fire rated fittings or hoods would be required.

 

[martysparky]

Fire rated fittings or fire hoods are only required when compromising the fire resistance between fire compartments.

A standard two storey house is one single fire compartment so not required.

If it has an integral garage with a room above then the garage is one compartment and the house is another. Should you foolishly want downlighters in the garage then fire rated fittings or hoods would be required.

Its my understanding that a modified 30 min rated light is required over any room with a room above and the only N/A is the roof itself. Also that fire rated are not required if a secondary ceiling is used because the designed structure remains unaltered.

but, was wondering if that means no fire hoods are required either. I would think not but am not absolutely sure.

 

[GaryM]

Its my understanding that a modified 30 min rated light is required over any room with a room above and the only N/A is the roof itself.

That's incorrect.

If you're worried about the spread of fire then don't look at the big hole caused by the stairs!

 

[Doomed]

I think gary is right, but I always use fie rated cans anyway, bugger the cost, do quality work!

 

[GaryM]

I always use fie rated cans anyway

So do I as I find them to be of better quality without that much of an impact to price.

 

[martysparky]

I think gary is right, but I always use fie rated cans anyway, bugger the cost, do quality work!

Don't mean to be argumentative but just checked best practice guides and I think I'm right.

If your using them anyway no worries better to be safer.

I think if your concerned about the stairs being open its recommended to apply double plaster boards walls and ceiling and fire rated sockets too in that location if penetrating the wall cavity.

oh, and don't forget the fire rated expanding foam for termination holes.

 

[GaryM]

Forget best practice and check Building Regulations.

You seem to want to treat each room as a separate fire compartment

 

[bugsy]

So what are veiws regarding 3 story domestics?

 

[martysparky]

Forget best practice and check Building Regulations.

You seem to want to treat each room as a separate fire compartment

I think I know what you mean but after studying the best practice guide I have it down as thats the way.

After all those guides are supposed to be leading the way to new up and coming regs.

I think the moral here is if its safer then its better practice.

Just a my thoughts and thanks for the input.

So what are veiws regarding 3 story domestics?

As far as I can make out reading it sideways much the same.

Best Practice Guides | Electrical Safety Council

 

[bugsy]

Only BPG suggests downlighters with integral protection, and I wondered hw the flower pot brigade got round the situation

 

[martysparky]

Only BPG suggests downlighters with integral protection, and I wondered hw the flower pot brigade got round the situation

I guess they could take the BS number off the packaging of the light accessory and apply it to the flower pot. lol
or say it was part of the existing installation as they only changed the accessory. phhhh

 

[ezzzekiel]

the problem is usually i go to look at a job where the customer has just bought 20 dl for a fiver off ebay good deal straight from china

 

[sparks1234]

You can also argue the fact if you have tongue and grooved boards upstairs

 

[martysparky]

You can also argue the fact if you have tongue and grooved boards upstairs

T&G Boards where? floor, ceiling, over plasterboard, No plasterboard?

Did you do it? ect

Good point...

 

[Notsosmart]

I think I know what you mean but after studying the best practice guide I have it down as thats the way.

After all those guides are supposed to be leading the way to new up and coming regs.

I think the moral here is if its safer then its better practice.

Just a my thoughts and thanks for the input.



As far as I can make out reading it sideways much the same.

Best Practice Guides | Electrical Safety Council

ESC; another quango of intellectuals who haven't had the full experience necessary to understand how hard it is to do our job without outside meddling.

Before you lot ---- in the indignation grenades I'm not saying that their best practice leaflets have no value but sometimes common sense gets lobbed out of the window.

 

[robsparky1975]

I must agree with doomed,im having to fit 60 odd gu10 downlights in a 4 bed house and always use fire rated they cover the lamps is one of my main reasons,there is tons of insulation going in but need to keep it at least 50mm clear above and 20mm around sides for heat to dissipate,some people use 4" stink pipe cut to length to protect but the real problem is the loft insulation,regarding the flower pots i cant see why you cant use these because your not adjusting the light fitting only pushing insulation away from it thus preventing heat build up which has got to get a thumbs up from any inspector.

 

[Ohmyword]

Fire rated fittings or fire hoods are only required when compromising the fire resistance between fire compartments.

A standard two storey house is one single fire compartment so not required.

If it has an integral garage with a room above then the garage is one compartment and the house is another. Should you foolishly want down-lighters in the garage then fire rated fittings or hoods would be required.

I can appreciate that this particular post is "quite old" now but I am just at this mo. experiencing a lot of grief on this subject.

I can't go into specific details because my case is "with the court" as we speak.

Amongst a lot of other works, I installed four recessed light fittings in a plaster-board ceiling in the bathroom of a BUNGALOW. I always use JCC fire-rated fittings (they have the intumescent ring - between ceiling and fitting). These were the "open" type and not the "canister, fully enclosed" type. In other words, the lamps were visible from above the ceiling - in the loft. I moved the insulation away from these fittings and installed the transformers up off the ceiling and above the insulation level. Because the invoice "went into dispute" the client got another firm in to carry out a Dom. Electr. Install. Per. Insp. Report. They classed my recessed light job as a Code 4 category because, they explained, "lights not enclosed in loft area". They also provided photo "evidence".

It would appear from what you are saying, that if a two-storey house is one single fire compartment, then a bungalow would definitely also be one fire compartment and not require fire hoods. As stated, these fittings were fire rated models anyhow.

I was, I thought, reliably informed some time ago that "you were only required to use fire rated fittings or hoods if there was living accommodation on the floor directly above said fittings". I thought - no problem here, it's a bungalow!

Could you please provide me with some feed-back and also some guidance in where to look up the ruling for such an installation?

 

[Dazza1976]

Yes Ohmyword, I believe you are right,

Im not sure exactly where it states it, but fire rated lights, or hoods are only necessary, when there is a room directly above the installation.

I tend to fit fire rated lights, regardless of the situation as do other sparks, but it isnt always necessary, like in your case for instance.

Obviously I dont know all the ins and outs of your case, but why dont you ask the people you are having the dispute with, to show you where in the regulations it states this ???

 

[Notsosmart]

First and foremost OMW I trust you have sought legal advice from a competent solicitor with experience in the subject.

Secondly you need to brush up on the iEE regs I suggest: Chapters 13 especially selection and erection of equipment, Chapter 42, chapter 52 especially 527 Selection and erection of wiring systems to minimise the spread of fire.

Remember that the regs defer to manufacturers instructions so if you can prove that
a) the items are BSen approved
b) the items are suitable for the installation
c) you have fitted the items as per manufacturers instructions
then you have gone some way in proving due diligence. ~ If you haven't got a copy of the literature that came with the fittings I would try online or request a copy from the manufacturer, you should also ensure that you have a copy of the receipt to go some way in proving that the fittings you have installed are as you describe.

Thirdly building regulations is another source as to the definition of a fire compartment.

Have a look at the attached document but make sure that you get expert confirmation that the attached is in fact correct and not just someones opinion.

 

[Ohmyword]

It would appear from further investigation that I should have (in hindsight), I think, used the canister (fully enclosed) type. Or formed a "box" around them or fitted smoke hoods. Reading between the lines a little more, I'm thinking that it's not the fire-rated integrity of the ceiling I am being "pulled-up" on, but the open type fitting I have used. The wiring to the lamp-holder and the back of the lamp are exposed in the loft space (and debris may "fall in")?
I suppose the only application where the 'open' type down light can be used is if one fits a smoke hood or 'makes a box' for each fitting?

Oooohh dear :-(

 

[AA410]

This thread is interesting and it brings home what we have to contend with on a regular basis have you tried L E D down lighters very little heat if any and the light is great

 

[bugsy]

Aurora Sola Range , a solution to the problem -

Footnote
Don't piddle about with cheap materials it costs you more in the long run!

 

[pennywise]

Aurora Sola Range , a solution to the problem -

Footnote
Don't piddle about with cheap materials it costs you more in the long run!

Just got to get the matching trannies, if there low voltage