HELP! Fire alarm problem, tiny fuses, much frustration!

[rocker]

Hello all, hoping someone here can help me out with something that is really getting under my skin.

As part of some work ive done for a regular customer, I have installed 5 new smoke detectors to his existing system (he wants mto turn a big flat into bedsits). Now, I have limited experience with big fire alarm systems and try to avoid them as all they seem to do is cause ballache, but as it was just a few additions and I had a bit of fireproof knocking about, I thought I'd do it for him.

So, everything wired up, all lights flashing the way they are meant to, I simulate a fire, the detectors pick it up, but the bells in the zone I'm working on do not sound (the other 3 zones work fine). At the panel, I now have a fault warning. I trace that to a tiny fuse (which I'll come back to), replace the fuse, check connections, everything's fine, hit the 'sound alarm' test button, fuse goes again.

Now, as the lights on my detectors are flashing as they should, and the detectors are detecting smoke, AND as the fuse only goes when the bells are set off, as far as I can see this can't be something I've done.... but the guy says it was working before, and I have no reason to doubt him.

So does ANYONE have any ideas. As I said, I try and avoid alarm work at the best of times, and am not up to speed with the ins and outs of fire alarm systems.

ALSO does anyone know what kind of fuse I need - it's tiny, about 3mm long by 1mm wide, and it's square and rated 500mA.

ALLLSO doe sanyone know how the heck to do an insulation resistance test on a fire alarm system - I'm thinking if I hit it with 500v or 250v it's going to kill it. OH and why do I need to earth a 20v system?????

SO CONFUSED, any help would be appreciated.

 

[telectrix]

sounds like you have a fault on the sounder circuit that's blowing the fuse . you need to remove the sounders from circuit, also the EOL device, and then IR test +- _ and both to E. could be a short

 

[tazz]

Firstly what make of panel is being used, and is the zone and sounder circuits seperate or wired on the same zone cable

 

[rocker]

The panel seems to just be some generic thing - no manufacturer written on or in it. No manuals, nothing.

Circuit has both detectors and sounders on it... the final item in the circuit is a sounder with like a resistor across + and -


Anyone any idea on what those fuses are called, by the way?


Thanks chaps

 

[tazz]

Ok sound like a 2 wire, what make of sensor have been fitted

 

[tazz]

Ok can only guess you have 2 wire or a Sav wire systems and the sirens are wired incorrectley, fuses are usually 500mA or 1A 20mm glas quick blow, see 2 diagrams for correct wiring

 

[rocker]

Fitted these ESP Optical Smoke Detector C/W Base| MeteorElectrical.com

 

[tazz]

What make of detectors where already on the system

 

[rocker]

Thanks! Yes looks like the 2 wire one... but it looks like it's wired right. I tried putting the last bell in 'normal' polartity and that set the sounder off, without blowing the fuse... put it back to reverse and it shuts up, but still blows the fuse when alarm set off (there is at least 1 other sounder in the zone)

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not sure, I think they are just generic non-branded ones

 

[tazz]

All sounders must be wired reverse polarity, does the panel look like any of these 2

 

[rocker]

Nah not like those, similar though. Got the two keys, lights for zones, faults, fire etc, small keyad with function buttons and numbers 1-4, that's about it. The most striking thing about it are these tiny square fuses inside.

 

[tazz]

ok think were getting there the old detector bases do they have a circuit board in the base or just a diode

 

[rocker]

the existing ones have a little printed circuit board, my ones have a diode

 

[tazz]

Ok its a sav wire system and your esp detectors will not work with this, You need Apollo sav bases and Apollo s65 detection, the sounders you have will be ok, This is why the fuses are blowing

 

[rocker]

Really? OK thanks very much for your help. Are you sure it is sav? The existing (circuit board) detectors have a common neutral but an 'in' and an 'out' on the positive side, is this right for sav?


Thanks again that's great

 

[scotsparky]

I had a similar problem with break glassunits many years ago. If you can check to see if the smoke detectors activate at a resistance or a dead short?
The fault i had was the call points put a dead short on popping fuses The panel would activate if a 125k resistance showed up on the N/O detector circuit.

 

[tazz]

In and out is not correct for sav wire it just has 2 + and 2-

 

[rocker]

hmm that does look like what's there. Right, anyone know where I can get these cheap? This is already costing me a fortune!!

 

[tazz]

Would like to make sure we get it right before buy more detectors which could be wrong, are the sirens part of the base or seperate. and is this the panel...otherwise suggest some photos tomorrow and we will then know what you have

 

[rocker]

That looks closer to what I have, but still not quite. I will try and get some photos today.

Yea the sirens are seperate from the detectors.

Thanks for all your help so far. I hate alarms. I hate them.

 

[rocker]

 

[rocker]

Okay, in the above post, we have 1. the existing base 2. a sounder within the circuit 3. the panel 4.inside the panel 5. the last sounder in the circuit with the little resistor 6. my new base 7. my new detector. 8 is a repeat but should be the existing detectors (which ARE appollo s65 optical smokes).

Any ideas?? Cheers

 

[tazz]

Ok Panel is Haes excel, which is twin wire, using Sav wire bases, from pic 1 the base is wired incorrect, Apollo use a standard base for all their products so ingnore L1 in and L1 out , go by + and - printed on circuit baord.
attached is apollo sav base instruction for you
View attachment sav-wire_2_base_ig_212_issue_1.pdf

 

[rocker]

OK cool, thanks. If I wire them like this, will I then be able to use my detectors, or will I still have to get the apollo sav ones?

Just to mention - I have bypassed all of my detectors so that the system is as it was before I started, and it works fine like that (even with the incorrect wiring)

 

[tazz]

They will only work with Sav Bases, best ones are apollo which looks like are aleady fitted, so Apollo sav Baes with Apollo S65 detectors will do the job, JSB Fire | Menvier Fire | Ziton Fire - The Fire Alarm StoreThe No.1 Online Supplier of Top Quality Fire Alarm Equipment at Trade Prices this company will be alot cheaper than the one you are using. Got there in the end...lol

 

[rocker]

Oh also, is it possible for me to turn this zone into a 2-wire system or whatever? I.e. buy the diode bases for the existing detectors, and use my detectors alongside them? It would certainly be cheaper that way, but can it be done on this panel? Thanks!

 

[rocker]

Ah see you answered my question before I asked it!! I'll check out that link... thanks so much for all your help, you are a lifesaver!!

 

[Glen Window]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[tazz]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

???????????????????????

 

[rocker]

I think mr window is simply trying to increase his post count.