Discuss Insulation resistance test on a damaged conductor in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

Neptune

DIY
Reaction score
24
I have a 2 metre T&E cable. I applied a IR test (500v) across P and N to E with the other end of the cable safely sitting on the floor and it reported the meter maximum. As expected.
I then completely cut through the N conductor on the cable and repeated the test. It still reports the meter maximum. Can someone explain this result please and I am trying to reconcile it with a real life situation where there is a nail through one of the conductors.

Thanks in advance.
 
I have a 2 metre T&E cable. I applied a IR test (500v) across P and N to E with the other end of the cable safely sitting on the floor and it reported the meter maximum. As expected.
I then completely cut through the N conductor on the cable and repeated the test. It still reports the meter maximum. Can someone explain this result please and I am trying to reconcile it with a real life situation where there is a nail through one of the conductors.

Thanks in advance.

If you have cut through the conductors then IR will be high - an open circuit is theoretically infinite impedance.

Think of what result you get when you perform an IR test with your leads disconnected from all conductors.

A lower IR would result if there was some interconnection between the two conductors, whether caused by moisture, cable damage etc.
 
If you have cut through the conductors then IR will be high - an open circuit is theoretically infinite impedance.

Think of what result you get when you perform an IR test with your leads disconnected from all conductors.

A lower IR would result if there was some interconnection between the two conductors, whether caused by moisture, cable damage etc.
When explained like that it makes perfect sense.
But...high reading and the meter maximum are regarded as good outcomes of the IR and its only when we have a lower reading (2 I think?) that we should investigate. Here, we have a broken conductor and the reading would be the meter maximum. Same as it would be for a perfect cable in the ring. I am sure I am missing something.
 
When explained like that it makes perfect sense.
But...high reading and the meter maximum are regarded as good outcomes of the IR and its only when we have a lower reading (2 I think?) that we should investigate. Here, we have a broken conductor and the reading would be the meter maximum. Same as it would be for a perfect cable in the ring. I am sure I am missing something.
Your continuity tests would confirm whether a conductor is intact or not - if there is a break, you would investigate.
 
Your continuity tests would confirm whether a conductor is intact or not - if there is a break, you would investigate.
But what if there was a nail smashed into a conductor but not completely severed the conductor. Would that result in a pass on the continuity test? and does IR testing have any relevance to this situation?
 
But what if there was a nail smashed into a conductor but not completely severed the conductor. Would that result in a pass on the continuity test? and does IR testing have any relevance to this situation?

The nail scenario will affect IR if it bridges between two conductors, or damages the insulation between the two conductors enough to cause them to touch/interact when the high test voltage is applied.

As Jim says, an open circuit is found with continuity tests.
 
But what if there was a nail smashed into a conductor but not completely severed the conductor. Would that result in a pass on the continuity test? and does IR testing have any relevance to this situation?
sorry to be pedantic but what happens in the above situation. The nail has penetrated one of the conductors and not any others and also, hasn't completely severed this conductor.
 
sorry to be pedantic but what happens in the above situation. The nail has penetrated one of the conductors and not any others and also, hasn't completely severed this conductor.

If it has only penetrated one conductor and not touched any other then it is likely the IR test will be clear, ie read HIGH.

If it has completely severed the core then the continuity test of that core will fail open circuit.
 
If it has only penetrated one conductor and not touched any other then it is likely the IR test will be clear, ie read HIGH.
And a “high” reading will also be obtained ina perfect situation too. Hence, you would merrily continue despite a nail being jammed into one of the conductors? Is this an unusual situation and a short coming of the testing?
 
And a “high” reading will also be obtained ina perfect situation too. Hence, you would merrily continue despite a nail being jammed into one of the conductors? Is this an unusual situation and a short coming of the testing?

You could test between the nail and the conductor and get a low IR reading!

But in practice a meter cannot know between an open circuit due to a break, or good circuit. When you think about it, a normal connection to a cable at any point (accessory, terminal block, etc) is basically a screw that squashes into it.
 
You could test between the nail and the conductor and get a low IR reading!

But in practice a meter cannot know between an open circuit due to a break, or good circuit. When you think about it, a normal connection to a cable at any point (accessory, terminal block, etc) is basically a screw that squashes into it.
I suppose if the screw has penetrated a single core, the small r readings will be different (between L and N) and that could be a clue as part of the continuity test?
 
I suppose if the screw has penetrated a single core, the small r readings will be different (between L and N) and that could be a clue as part of the continuity test?

No, if only one core has been touched the continuity tests will be fine. Unless it has fully broken the core in which case continuity tests will be infinity, or maximum the meter can display
 
Thanks again. Final question please.
If there was a screw that has partially penetrated a single conductor, we have established that this will not be detected as part of the Continuity or IT test. You would walk away from this installation with a thumbs up.

Could this situation subsequently cause tripping etc.?
 
The principle is: if an IR test on a cable reads high, the cable might be good. If it reads low, the cable is definitely bad.

We are surrounded by insulating air, so in a dry environment there is no easy way to detect places where PVC insulation has been punctured or stripped as the air surrounding the cable will provide equally good insulation. In truth, in a dry environment where there is not much earthed metal around, IR tests will miss many kinds of damage. The problem is much more likely to be detected where something non-insulating is present to make contact with the exposed conductors; damp masonry, soil, dead wildlife etc. E.g. if a squirrel gnaws the PVC off a cable cleated along a wooden joist the loss of insulation itself won't cause a low reading. But if the carbonised dead squirrel ends up lying across the exposed conductors then the IR will show that up.

Does it matter? If a screw just grazes the line conductor in a cable then you have a live screw, but it won't shock anyone unless they touch it. There must be hundreds of thousands of live screws and nails around the world, bashed into dry timber and completely undetectable by normal testing. If the screw happens to be holding up a metal shower rail then it is a serious shock hazard, but it is likely to be in contact with various building materials, not all perfectly dry, so at that point the insulation resistance is likely to read low enough to earth to arouse suspicion. This is why it is so important for IR tests to be done with the CPC connected to the MET, unless specifically troubleshooting.

IR tests are very good at finding substandard insulation materials, water ingress and underground faults, because here the good insulators are replaced with bad ones, rather than with air.
 
Thanks again. Final question please.
If there was a screw that has partially penetrated a single conductor, we have established that this will not be detected as part of the Continuity or IT test. You would walk away from this installation with a thumbs up.

Could this situation subsequently cause tripping etc.?

You would definitely not walk away from it and leave it. Assuming of course you know about it. In practice you wouldn't know, unless you'd done it yourself
 
Thanks again. Final question please.
If there was a screw that has partially penetrated a single conductor, we have established that this will not be detected as part of the Continuity or IT test. You would walk away from this installation with a thumbs up.

Could this situation subsequently cause tripping etc.?
Very unlikely unless the screw was somehow earthed.
To put it another way - I've never had a tripping RCD where the IR test hasn't shown me which circuit is causing it and helped me fine the fault.
Out of interest which tester did you get?
 
Full dead testing includes

insulation test. Very high reading. To check that what shouldn’t be touching, isn’t.

Continuity test. Very low reading. To check that
What should be touching, is.

Continuity tests over several conductors that are the same length, and should be the same resistance can give clues to problems if the results are vastly differing.


Your example would be a “perfect storm” scenario where all test results are correct, but damage may make itself known at a later date
and why there should be periodic testing done on any installation.

Damage like this may not show straight away, but over a number of years.
 
Out of interest which tester did you get?
Megger MFT 1711. Resolved my earlier issue. Will post an update.
Thanks for your help.

I have noticed that when doing the IR test, I have to hold down the Test button for several seconds before the meter reaches the maximum reading. It's not instant. Its that normal?
 
Full dead testing includes

insulation test. Very high reading. To check that what shouldn’t be touching, isn’t.

Continuity test. Very low reading. To check that
What should be touching, is.

Continuity tests over several conductors that are the same length, and should be the same resistance can give clues to problems if the results are vastly differing.


Your example would be a “perfect storm” scenario where all test results are correct, but damage may make itself known at a later date
and why there should be periodic testing done on any installation.

Damage like this may not show straight away, but over a number of years.
When completing or updating a Ring, are these the minimum tests:
1. Continuity test
2. Cross over / figure of 8 tests
3. Insulation Resistance test

Are there other mandatory ones?
 

Reply to Insulation resistance test on a damaged conductor in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

Similar Threads

Hello all, I hope you're all keeping well. I have a question regarding insulation resistance testing. Whether doing a single circuit IR test or...
Replies
9
Views
588
I had an interesting little job this morning. Three sockets in an extension were not working and haven't worked for quite some time (years). It...
Replies
0
Views
275
Hi all , after some opinions on N-E fault or ring main. After chasing this fault and ruining my bank holiday weekend , ring main IR readings as...
Replies
3
Views
1K
Hi, I'm a little confused confused is someone can shine some light on the amendment 2 way of doing IR. I know you have to do one 1st fix at 500V...
Replies
6
Views
2K
Hi all, Testing question for you. I'm currently testing an existing domestic installation. The wiring is about 20-25 years old. We have rewired...
Replies
7
Views
1K

OFFICIAL SPONSORS

Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Electrician Courses Green Electrical Goods PCB Way Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Pushfit Wire Connectors Electric Underfloor Heating Electrician Courses
These Official Forum Sponsors May Provide Discounts to Regular Forum Members - If you would like to sponsor us then CLICK HERE and post a thread with who you are, and we'll send you some stats etc

Electrical Forum

Welcome to the Electrical Forum at ElectriciansForums.net. The friendliest electrical forum online. General electrical questions and answers can be found in the electrical forum.
This website was designed, optimised and is hosted by Untold Media. Operating under the name Untold Media since 2001.
Back
Top
AdBlock Detected

We get it, advertisements are annoying!

Sure, ad-blocking software does a great job at blocking ads, but it also blocks useful features of our website. For the best site experience please disable your AdBlocker.

I've Disabled AdBlock