My Panel

[Ashley Williams]

Im an electrical apprentise just about out of my time been working for 2 years now mainly as a mainternance engineer, but do lots of installs and panel building etc. Here is my latest Panel if any of you wonder how plywood cable drums are made (Well the Larger ones) this is how it is done. This is a new hydraulic press which operates at 200 Bar. The panel operates the pneamatic control to take the drum in to the press and eject it once pressed, the hydraulic enerpac aswell as a full automatic mode. There are a number of conditions for press to work including light guards and pressure switches so the drum is perfectly pressed. I designed and built the control circuit. Here are some pictures. Unfortunatly none of the completed panel as i forgot and it has already been installed in another factory.




This picture if of the press under going trials it was then stripped and transported to another factory where we installed it.


Ash

 

[trev]

Aye, not bad yungun. There's a thread in general for this sort of thing though, Show Us Your Installs" It would have got more notice taken of it there mate.

 

[alarm man]

so what happened to the panel in the pics

 

[Engineer54]

I see that your company don't use panel wiring trunking (slotted/finger) in there panels!! Which is a shame, It makes internal panel wiring so much neater, and gives a professional finish to the job....

 

[alarm man]

I see that your company don't use panel wiring trunking (slotted/finger) in there panels!! Which is a shame, It makes internal panel wiring so much neater, and gives a professional finish to the job....

my thoughts too,thats not a lash up to see if it works,that could be the finished product,no room for trunk as the top hat leaves no room for it unless you remove it and cut,poor looming,no protection over door,perm marker for cut outs,its a mess if it is the finished product,which i presume its not..

 

[vaughant]

No cable numbers or terminal points marked,which shows you've been taught badly as you should design everything out on paper first so you know what cable goes where,get your scheme correct etc rather than just connecting it all up as you go along.
Thats fine for you while your wiring it but no use for the guy coming behind you where theres nothing to work from after say an electrical fire or impact damage from a forklift.
Your obviously not stupid as there's a fair bit of control in there but without numbers and labelling I'd refuse to work on it.
Wheres the diagram you worked from?surely you numbered that?

 

[snowhead]

Unfortunatly none of the completed panel as i forgot and it has already been installed in another factory.


Ash

Appologise to the O.P, any replies to this thread are meant to be constructive critisim, not just a general slagging off.

I asume the wiring got tidied up.

Agree with all the above comments.
I work on a lot of control panels, never seen one wired like this before.
It's so much easier to build with cable trunking and easier to fault find following cables without a drawing after.

Marker pen needs cleaning off after the holes are punched.

If you build more than 1 of these you need a jig to form the wiring and loom to length before it's fitted to the contactors and terminals.

Assume that's a PLC in the corner, no vents in the box then?

 

[malcolmsanford]

Now that we have ripped a new one out of this.......................a bit of spiral cable wrap for those cables going to the lidded door would not have been amiss

 

[cogsey133]

good for you showing this. Well done on the panel having done this type of work myself for what seems like a lifetime now please dont take the above points as you being got at they are all valid. Every day is a school day in the electrical field.

 

[Guitarist]

Well done for showing us what you built. Can't really add much to what the other guys have said. Definitely needs trunking to give it that professional look.
Also, you are an "apprentice", not an "apprentise", and it's "maintenance", not "mainternance". Don't mean to be picky, but people you work with will think it very unprofessional if you misspell your own job title.

 

[Robotstar5]

Thanks for showing the panel/machine build, I hope you take the above as constructive criticism, it will make future builds look a lot more professional which should lead to repeat/more orders for your company.

Hopefully the pics were taken before you fitted the earth bonding between the chassis plate, enclosure & lid etc. also, I prefer to drive a safety relay with the OSSD outputs from the lightguards and another on the E/stop circuit as it allows you to monitor residual pneumatic/hydraulic pressure before allowing a restart. Did you fit a satellite E/stop on the side of the machine opposite to the panel?.

PILZ do some good training seminars which would help you with the safety aspect of machine design.

 

[Ashley Williams]

The permanent marker was removed, door, back plate and enclosure where all bonded! I wanted to use trunking but was told i wasnt allowed and in all honesty there was little room for it as i did not order the enclosure most of the components where pre ordered by my boss while i was on holiday as he knew what i would need roughly! I would of preffered a slightly larger enclosure No saterlite E-Stop i made the suggestion but it was rejected! There are a full set of drawings all labelled with terminal numbers! I did attempt wite labelling but the number supplied by my company where useless and just didnt stick and they wouldnt buy an alternative!

Im always open to suggestions im trying to drag the standard up. As for my spelling ive always been usless and always will be!

Ash

 

[Guitarist]

The permanent marker was removed, door, back plate and enclosure where all bonded! I wanted to use trunking but was told i wasnt allowed and in all honesty there was little room for it as i did not order the enclosure most of the components where pre ordered by my boss while i was on holiday as he knew what i would need roughly! I would of preffered a slightly larger enclosure No saterlite E-Stop i made the suggestion but it was rejected! There are a full set of drawings all labelled with terminal numbers! I did attempt wite labelling but the number supplied by my company where useless and just didnt stick and they wouldnt buy an alternative!

Im always open to suggestions im trying to drag the standard up. As for my spelling ive always been usless and always will be!

Ash

Many people aren't great at spelling mate (although an online dictionary is a great tool). Not knowing how to spell what you are is a bit like not knowing how to spell your own name though. People notice

 

[Engineer54]

The permanent marker was removed, door, back plate and enclosure where all bonded! I wanted to use trunking but was told i wasnt allowed and in all honesty there was little room for it as i did not order the enclosure most of the components where pre ordered by my boss while i was on holiday as he knew what i would need roughly! I would of preffered a slightly larger enclosure No saterlite E-Stop i made the suggestion but it was rejected! There are a full set of drawings all labelled with terminal numbers! I did attempt wite labelling but the number supplied by my company where useless and just didnt stick and they wouldnt buy an alternative!

Im always open to suggestions im trying to drag the standard up. As for my spelling ive always been usless and always will be!

Ash

I knew full well when i made my comment, that this would have been a company policy thing, and not left to an apprentice to decide what is going into the panel and what's not!...lol!!

The thing is though, when that panel reaches the customer, that could in all likelihood have a Maintenance or Engineering Manager. ...Now he's not going to be too impressed when he opens the panel door, and sees a quagmire of un-numbered panel wiring cables, no flexible spiral wrap binding for loomed door cables, among other omissions.... He will probably know how much this panel cost his company as well (if you get my meaning?). There is rarely if ever, a reason not to number control wiring or not to use a form of panel wiring containment and loom control to opening doors in a control panel.

Apart from anything else, aesthetically it just doesn't look a professional job at the end of the day... Again, there is no way anyone should be blaming you for the omissions, this is definitely a company policy or management problem...

 

[Ashley Williams]

We are not a panel building company we are just a small maintenance department the press has gone to one of our other sites! So any maintenance would be carried out this is there justification for lack of things!

Ash

 

[alarm man]

ash,its shocking mate,not strictly your fault and youve been brave posting the pics and the obvious grief you would get,but all the above should point you in the right direction of panel building,stick to your guns next time,as at the end of the day,that panel left the workshop with your name on it..

 

[vaughant]

Well done for coming on ash and talking us through what went on etc and showing it wasn't the finished article.
Being honest mate no panel should ever be assembled without trunking,in fact I've never seen one in 20 years that hasn't,it's super shoddy.
As for spirap etc it's great stuff but to learn properly and make for a far cheaper alternative then use looming cord,I never touched spirap until I left the training school but it's common now.
Its hard working for a firm that won't back you but if your a maintenance man then there's lots of opportunities to move on to something that appreciates your efforts a bit more and actually backs you up rather than saying "no" all the time.
Dont just accept having crap spelling,it's hateful to read text speak etc and through no fault of your own schools have let spelling/grammar/punctuation decline so far over the last 15 years when labour came in that you've probably never been corrected for it the way we were!!!
I'm naturally good at English etc probably because I'm Welsh (which sounds odd but it makes you try a bit harder) and had a good education although others I know drastically improved their spelling by simply reading a lot more.
Where are you based? I'm guessing Wales yourself being a Williams??

 

[silva.foxx]

We are not a panel building company we are just a small maintenance department the press has gone to one of our other sites! So any maintenance would be carried out this is there justification for lack of things!

Ash

Firstly, thanks for showing your work.
Secondly, holes are rightfully being blown into this example!

You have stated you are not a panel building company... who has verified your circuit design in relation to the Press risk assessment?

Presses... are they covered by special regulations?

Your 400vac (assumed as no signs) feed wiring is in black... your +24vdc is in black... your switched neutral is in blue... your PSU supply (230vac) is in blue... your -24vdc is in blue... You say you want to raise standards... DO IT BY ADHERING TO CURRENT STANDARDS.

Is it an earthed ELV control circuit?

Your lack of wire numbers may be omitted assuming your schematics are spot-on! I take it you have schematics... if so are they computer drafted?

What are you powering with that PSU? It's huge. What is it rated at? 10 or 20A?

These days anything over four relays should be replaced with a programmable logic block or smart relay... thats not to say it must be.

Safety relay? To what safety category have you installed to? Are external monitoring contacts used as part of resetting the light barrier?

What tells you that the motor DOL has tripped? If it alerts the operator then it prevents him fiddling when he can't start the m/c.

Are we to assume all your field wiring leaves from the top of the panel?

I'm not keen on your control wiring passing so close over the supply of the isolator.


Your last sentence... they should not be left wanting!


Please show a photo of your schematics.

regards
s.f

 

[Ashley Williams]

Im based in Oswestry Shropshire, But work in Wrexham, North Wales.

Again i am happy to recieve any advice and help i have recieved no proper training or guidance from a proper panel builder. Now you mention in i to have never seen an electrical panel without trunking.

Next panel i build i will insist apon trunking and ill post some pictures up when im done.

Ash

 

[trev]

Guys I reckon some of us should cut this lad just a little slack here, in his OP he clearly states he's an apprentice. Ok he's nearly out of his time but nonetheless he is still an apprentice and as such is still under the guidance and supervision of someone qualified (I hope). He's posted the pic up because he's feeling a little proud of something he's done which is why I only said what I did in my first reply to him. Yes there's problems but they're not down to him imho

 

[alarm man]

to be fair trev i dont think hes been lashed that much,but he said hes done lots of panel building,and thats not a panel any day of the week,again hes taken it well and will probably learn which is the whole point we all have done poor jobs,its all learning,but someone somewhere in that company feels its ok to send scrap out as a finished job,i think ash will learn more on here than from his master at work..

 

[trev]

Alarm man as usual you make some bloody good points there mate, I just thought it was heading for a severe lashing and thought maybe a little step back was in order given his status. I agree that's not a panel but if that's the way you've been shown how to do something that's the way you do it because you know no better.

 

[Guitarist]

Guys I reckon some of us should cut this lad just a little slack here, in his OP he clearly states he's an apprentice. Ok he's nearly out of his time but nonetheless he is still an apprentice and as such is still under the guidance and supervision of someone qualified (I hope). He's posted the pic up because he's feeling a little proud of something he's done which is why I only said what I did in my first reply to him. Yes there's problems but they're not down to him imho

Well, I tried to help him spell "apprentice", but instead of a thanks he simply told me that he's never been good at spelling and never will be!! No helping some people..... :banghead:

 

[vaughant]

Alarm man as usual you make some bloody good points there mate, I just thought it was heading for a severe lashing and thought maybe a little step back was in order given his status. I agree that's not a panel but if that's the way you've been shown how to do something that's the way you do it because you know no better.

I hope ash doesn't see it that way, and if anyone really digs in im sure we'll sort that out amongst us. I think he's taking all the points on board and as I said above he's clearly interested in all this and as a general starting point his panel has a few positives and given the circumstances it sounds as though he did ok.
As a note ash it's never wrong to question why your asked to do something that's clearly wrong,next time make up a full parts list first (most good installs include a bill of materials) and explain to your bosses that you'd like to use it for college etc so it has to be right as you'll get marked down etc,some bull like that as any costs should be passed onto the customer anyway.
Panel building is not a particularly specialist job,if you want to get into industrial control then it's a field you need to learn,most of my electrical apprenticeship was doing my own drawings from scratch then building the panel,testing it then an instructor would place faults on it that you found using the diagram and fault finding techniques etc.
It would be great if you could post the schematic up as their all done differently but this is a great way of advising on how to do a panel layout well before you even start thinking about connecting it up etc.
As for numbers and the associated tools numbering in my eyes is totally and utterly essential,only the laziest sparks will wire them up without.
If you get access to German schematics they generally use a good system,worth learning and copying!!!

 

[alarm man]

I hope ash doesn't see it that way, and if anyone really digs in im sure we'll sort that out amongst us. I think he's taking all the points on board and as I said above he's clearly interested in all this and as a general starting point his panel has a few positives and given the circumstances it sounds as though he did ok.
As a note ash it's never wrong to question why your asked to do something that's clearly wrong,next time make up a full parts list first (most good installs include a bill of materials) and explain to your bosses that you'd like to use it for college etc so it has to be right as you'll get marked down etc,some bull like that as any costs should be passed onto the customer anyway.
Panel building is not a particularly specialist job,if you want to get into industrial control then it's a field you need to learn,most of my electrical apprenticeship was doing my own drawings from scratch then building the panel,testing it then an instructor would place faults on it that you found using the diagram and fault finding techniques etc.
It would be great if you could post the schematic up as their all done differently but this is a great way of advising on how to do a panel layout well before you even start thinking about connecting it up etc.
As for numbers and the associated tools numbering in my eyes is totally and utterly essential,only the laziest sparks will wire them up without.
If you get access to German schematics they generally use a good system,worth learning and copying!!!

agree with all that v,but the panel building isnt specialist,it may not be but its a art at the minimum,its a sparks version of a picasso,sometimes i would spend a few hours just tweaking a loom or make sure every term was square to make it look so,half a mill out might not look anything to some but to a panel man it was a mile,can be obsessive sometimes

 

[silva.foxx]

...only the laziest sparks will wire them up without.
If you get access to German schematics they generally use a good system,worth learning and copying!!!

I don't class Germans as lazy sparks yet they do a good wiring system using contact numbers rather than wire IDs. They have spot-on schematics to supplement this type of wiring method.

As you've said...I've seen many-a-panel with no markers nor schematics. It's a character-building task when faultfinding them ones.

 

[Engineer54]

I don't class Germans as lazy sparks yet they do a good wiring system using contact numbers rather than wire IDs. They have spot-on schematics to supplement this type of wiring method.

As you've said...I've seen many-a-panel with no markers nor schematics. It's a character-building task when faultfinding them ones.

Well i for one am not a fan of German schematics, which mostly come in multiple sheets or A4 book form for even relatively small control panels. There schematics tend to send you all over the place, ...your forever flicking through different pages. Very difficult at times to get an overall view of what your working on. Much prefer the older UK system, which is basically what the Yanks still use. ...But then that's what i was trained using. lol!!!

 

[Robotstar5]

Well i for one am not a fan of German schematics, which mostly come in multiple sheets or A4 book form for even relatively small control panels. There schematics tend to send you all over the place, ...your forever flicking through different pages. Very difficult at times to get an overall view of what your working on.

Same here, although I don't have a lot of options when half of our machines are sourced through the German headquarters! A good example a few months ago when a safety relay was changed, it had 12-15 brown unmarked wires into top and the same on bottom, the guy was lucky he only got one wrong, still took me a while to sort as I had to disconnect and trace wires jumping all over the drawings!

 

[Robotstar5]

I wanted to use trunking but was told i wasnt allowed and in all honesty there was little room for it as i did not order the enclosure most of the components where pre ordered by my boss while i was on holiday as he knew what i would need roughly! I would of preffered a slightly larger enclosure

I know the feeling when some one else orders the enclosure, in my case the engineer who designed the machine just left a space at the bottom hoping it would do!

It was tight....

 

[big show]

I see that your company don't use panel wiring trunking (slotted/finger) in there panels!! Which is a shame, It makes internal panel wiring so much neater, and gives a professional finish to the job....

Ditto shame no slotted trunking but very nice anyway and I've seen a lot worse

 

[Engineer54]

Ditto shame no slotted trunking but very nice anyway and I've seen a lot worse

That's taking it a little too far, to be honest...

 

[Darkwood]

Yes think everyone covered the points so a good several areas to address but having said that your achillies heel here is the boss, cutting corners like he does as you have suggested, if you have designed and built several panels before as you suggest then i would expect you to have a stock supply of numbering kits, slotted trunking etc with only the contactors, relays etc to order to spec'.
I would in your shoes be looking into joining a company who build control panels as a main part of their income, this way you wont pick up the bad habits that your boss is cornering you into doing.... its not a criticism but constructive, or at the very least have a sit down with the boss and explain he needs to budget in for the above points.

This one i did shows the trunking and numbering you require although before others point out it lacks venting and E-stop but on clients request as its to be stripped in Switzerland and fitted into a larger control panel, i just rigged this up for a on-site temp' rig to show the clients the machine running before we exported it.

 

[netblindpaul]

Remember though if you ate building a machine to be used in a business undertaking, then this is legally putting the machine onto the market, thus it must comply with any and all regulations that apply to bought in machines.
I doubt that this panel would tbh, and not the apprentices fault really.
However the law still applies, and it's panel does not meet the requirements of the statute law, or harmonised standards for compliance with the relevant new approach directives.

 

[Robotstar5]

Remember though if you ate building a machine to be used in a business undertaking, then this is legally putting the machine onto the market, thus it must comply with any and all regulations that apply to bought in machines.
I doubt that this panel would tbh, and not the apprentices fault really.
However the law still applies, and it's panel does not meet the requirements of the statute law, or harmonised standards for compliance with the relevant new approach directives.

That's why I suggested a seminar from some one like Pilz, when I went they gave all the neccessary info regarding directives, BS/EN etc.

 

[Ashley Williams]

OK answering a few of these...

The supply to the power supply was changed i was waiting for the brown to come in to stock it was due in the next morning i just put it in to test the panel out.

The Black 400ac supply to the contactor etc I labelled cruidly using a dymo labeller with L1, L2 and L3 around them. I wasnt allowed brown and grey.

As for the 24v wiring i am not familair with the suitable colours for 24v dc I will read up on this i promise but yes in hign site it could be much better i will take this into account if i ever make a panel again.

The PSU is 10A.

I suggested a small PLC but it was rejected by the powers that be.

I have spot on schematics. I have checked them three times but they are in the machine now not with me.

As for risk assesment in all honesty i dont know the extent the checks etc.

Today i had to make some modifications to an exsisting panel by removing the DOL forward and reverse starter and replacing it with a VSD i caused a bit of a fuss when i went and bought a numbering kit on account from the wholesalers. But i refused to do it any other way. I kept the same colour wiring as the exsisting panel. I kept the 400ac supply and the supply to the motor the same numbers and suitably numbered the control wires. The machine is not back in service yet. the only problem i have is no professional way of updating the wiring diagram. But to the show part of the struggle i am up against my boss came along and said oh ive soldered some wires on the potentiometer for you he mounted it in the front half of the panel while im working in the rear he then goes can you see the wires poking through to find he was soldered a bit of old three core 1mm flex on to it that he had cut off an old work lamp. I honestly couldnt believe it. I waited for him to go and i removed it resolding on some 0.5mm tri rated insulating the terminals with heat shrink.

If i cause to much of a fuss about things i get taken off jobs and put on greasing duty's etc which means i learn nothing...

I am glad of my job and i do like many aspects of it im in a situation where i completed C+G 2330 full time course at college and only 3 out of 23 got jobs. and one of them is working for a compressor repair company doing more pipe work than anything. So i see myself as fortunate as ive got a little experiance under my belt. I am always open to advice an will always question something if i dont think its right.

Thank you everyone for your advice and the people who has posted pictures up of there panels i like them i hope one day i will have the knowledge to build a panel to that standard.

Ash

Firstly, thanks for showing your work.
Secondly, holes are rightfully being blown into this example!

You have stated you are not a panel building company... who has verified your circuit design in relation to the Press risk assessment?

Presses... are they covered by special regulations?

Your 400vac (assumed as no signs) feed wiring is in black... your +24vdc is in black... your switched neutral is in blue... your PSU supply (230vac) is in blue... your -24vdc is in blue... You say you want to raise standards... DO IT BY ADHERING TO CURRENT STANDARDS.

Is it an earthed ELV control circuit?

Your lack of wire numbers may be omitted assuming your schematics are spot-on! I take it you have schematics... if so are they computer drafted?

What are you powering with that PSU? It's huge. What is it rated at? 10 or 20A?

These days anything over four relays should be replaced with a programmable logic block or smart relay... thats not to say it must be.

Safety relay? To what safety category have you installed to? Are external monitoring contacts used as part of resetting the light barrier?

What tells you that the motor DOL has tripped? If it alerts the operator then it prevents him fiddling when he can't start the m/c.

Are we to assume all your field wiring leaves from the top of the panel?

I'm not keen on your control wiring passing so close over the supply of the isolator.


Your last sentence... they should not be left wanting!


Please show a photo of your schematics.

regards
s.f

 

[Ashley Williams]

And i am very interested in a PILZ seminar i had a brief look on there website but couldnt see much i will look tomorrow when im not so tired.

Ash

 

[big show]

That's taking it a little too far, to be honest...

Now hang on I wasn't having a go just saying the only thing to stick out obvious was the panel trunking otherwise it's a nice job

 

[Darkwood]

With regards to the VSD you installed- make sure you follow the the earthing arrangements as per manufacturers instructions! .... the earthing system and filtering of these devices is crucial and can create all sorts of issues if done incorrectly.... i can relate and understand your situe' here but you really should be taking relevent courses in panel/control systems long before even attempting what your doing, your knowledge is crude at most (no offense meant) thus you have the functional know-how of the parts you install but lack the knowledge of Regulations, Earthing and filtering arrangements to prevent RF interference and dampen harmonics, Risk assessment, ....etc etc sorry but this list goes on.
You are really creating a deep hole for yourself here and although you explain you would be put on a crappy job instead it should really be an issue of not been ready yet and putting up with the crappy alternative jobs until you have trained up to do panel building. Its clear those above you are clueless thus you have no proffesional guide which leaves you wide open to bad habits and practices well behind what are required.
To sum it up... if a machine breakdown or worse a users receives an injury or is killed then the few minor issues we brought up will be the least of your worries as we cant truely scrutinise it any deeper without at the very least seeing schematics, this is a press and usually carry quite an high Risk category and thus have to be designed very carefully with fail safe in mind and all aspects of user risk.

My previous comments were regarding what you initially asked about your control panel... but through reply and response ive got a deeper understanding of what your trying to achieve here hence ive posted a bit harsher but hope you understand why, alot of good points have been pointed out by others and puting it all in context you should now be seeing the depth of water you are in, although this is a great side of electrics to get into - try not to jump in the deep end before you can swim.

 

[netblindpaul]

You should not be using brown & grey in a panel anyway for phase conductors really, as these colours are not recognised in 60204.
All a.c. power wiring should be black, with identification numbering.
All a.c. control wiring, regardless of voltage should be red, with identification numbering.
All d.c. control wiring should be blue, regardless of polarity or voltage, with identification numbering.
Don't have 60204 to hand, I'll "try" to remember to dig the table number out.
Also please remember that if you are designing equipment, you must have copies of the relevant standards and legislation to refer to at all times.
There is over £2k to start with.
If you don't have them and there is an issue then you will have been deemed non compliant, as you cannot design and build to a standard that you don't have.
This is why the scams insist on a copy of 7671 for their members.

 

[Engineer54]

Now hang on I wasn't having a go just saying the only thing to stick out obvious was the panel trunking otherwise it's a nice job

I know you wasn't having a go, which was why i posted my comment. If you have read the comments posted by those that have far more extensive experience in panel fabrication than either of us, it's plainly obvious that it's not a nice job. ...And i'm not laying any blame on the OP, as he should be conducting any work undertaken with suitable supervision....

 

[Robotstar5]

And i am very interested in a PILZ seminar i had a brief look on there website but couldnt see much i will look tomorrow when im not so tired.

Ash

I think this is the one I went on, found it very informative.

 

[ACDC]

You should not be using brown & grey in a panel anyway for phase conductors really, as these colours are not recognised in 60204.

From 60204
13.2.4 Identification by colour
Where colour-coding is used for identification of conductors (other than the protective
conductor (see 13.2.2) and the neutral conductor (see 13.2.3)), the following colours may be
used:
BLACK, BROWN, RED, ORANGE, YELLOW, GREEN, BLUE (including LIGHT BLUE),
VIOLET, GREY, WHITE, PINK, TURQUOISE.
NOTE This list of colours is derived from IEC 60757.

 

[silva.foxx]

Ash...in Llay is a training co that have done Pilz courses in the past. E&L Products. It's by Star Cleaning.

 

[silva.foxx]

My reference to wiring colours was to highlight they were being mixed in this case.

 

[netblindpaul]

You should not be using brown & grey in a panel anyway for phase conductors really, as these colours are not recognised in 60204.

From 60204
13.2.4 Identification by colour
Where colour-coding is used for identification of conductors (other than the protective
conductor (see 13.2.2) and the neutral conductor (see 13.2.3)), the following colours may be
used:
BLACK, BROWN, RED, ORANGE, YELLOW, GREEN, BLUE (including LIGHT BLUE),
VIOLET, GREY, WHITE, PINK, TURQUOISE.
NOTE This list of colours is derived from IEC 60757.

I was thinking more about this section!
Where colour-coding is used for identification of conductors, it is recommended that they be
colour-coded as follows:
– BLACK: a.c. and d.c. power circuits;
– RED: a.c. control circuits;
– BLUE: d.c. control circuits;
– ORANGE: excepted circuits in accordance with 5.3.5.
Exceptions: to the above are permitted where:
– insulation is used that is not available in the colours recommended; or
– multiconductor cable is used, but not the bicolour combination GREEN-AND-YELLOW.

 

[vaughant]

Orange is usually things like panel lighting etc,stuff fed from the other side of the isolator and hence live even when the isolators disconnected.
They use orange wire where I am now in plc controlled contractors to show it could be energised from elsewhere.

 

[alarm man]

i remenber doing some panels for submarines and the cables were all pink,cant remember the type of cable but it was the worst cable to handle,loom and strip,ds might be able to shed some light on the name of it tho

 

[vaughant]

I don't class Germans as lazy sparks yet they do a good wiring system using contact numbers rather than wire IDs. They have spot-on schematics to supplement this type of wiring method.

As you've said...I've seen many-a-panel with no markers nor schematics. It's a character-building task when faultfinding them ones.

Sorry if it came across that way,I meant that people who DON'T follow the German system yet also don't mark cables up are the laziest most selfish sparks about.
Ive seen tons of it where I am,even on brand new installs. I've questioned the lack of diagrams,support and general appalling attitude to the vitality of diagrams where I am and had the answer from my department head of "we've run like this since 1700 and something".
...hence I went for a job interview on thursday,elsewhere of course!!!

 

[johnboy6083]

You should not be using brown & grey in a panel anyway for phase conductors really, as these colours are not recognised in 60204.
All a.c. power wiring should be black, with identification numbering.
All a.c. control wiring, regardless of voltage should be red, with identification numbering.
All d.c. control wiring should be blue, regardless of polarity or voltage, with identification numbering.
Don't have 60204 to hand, I'll "try" to remember to dig the table number out.
Also please remember that if you are designing equipment, you must have copies of the relevant standards and legislation to refer to at all times.
There is over £2k to start with.
If you don't have them and there is an issue then you will have been deemed non compliant, as you cannot design and build to a standard that you don't have.
This is why the scams insist on a copy of 7671 for their members.

I know and appreiciate that your a stickler fior the rules paul, and for good reason, but regarding the black cable for all of the phases, it is not something i would use.
Ive had the misfortune of working on an american panel (for a water atomiser), and that was wired in black cables with numbers. It was a pain. If i has to modify that panel slightly, and a number fell off 2 cables at the asme time, then its a pain to identify. I

m guessing that the standard you refer to is a Cenelec or IEC standard, and uses the colour black for more political reasons (ie harmonisation). In my perosinal opionion, if a panel is to be built for the UK, the the UK phase colours should be used. If its to be built for export to unkown then maybe stick with the black with numbers.
I work for a subcontractor of a large water company, and all of this water companies panels (well the ones i have seen), use UK phase colours.
I cannot see a court ect ever deciding that you are wrong for using widely recognised colours.

I cannot see an

 

[netblindpaul]

Well if you use phase colours then the panel cannot be CE marked as it will not comply with the requirements of the LVD as it will not comply with the recognised standards that are put in place to ensure compliance.
If you can't handle wire numbers correctly then stay out of panels is another answer
You may find that a court will find you guilty, and if I were the expert witness you met, then I would be trying to send you down end of story.