No Earth available at the cut out?

[craig1000]

Hi need to clarify as quickly as possible a situation?
No clear main earth terminal at the incoming suppy?
small bit of stranded remains off the cable sheath but nut soething to connect to.
Definatly no earth rod!
I want to split the incoming supply after the meter via 100amp link blocks to provide a sub board to use for new circuits to be rcd protected feeding the kitchen & bathroom.
Customer doesnt want a full board change for fear of old wiring not holding in on a rcd.
No where to connect by earth from my new CU.
Can get a good Ze of 0.11 off the existing wylex rewirable CU but i am positive this is reading through the gas & water bonds & possibly even the cpc's in the outgoing circuits somehow.
Customer doesnt want me investigating & the cost involved of additional works the old wiring.
The DNO are not interested but should push them harder to come out & provide a MET?
Should they charge for this?
Should i put a rod in, trouble being in a built up street so where would be a problem.
Supply is a T-N-S fed via old lead paper underground cable.

Advice needed ASAP?

Thanks in advance!

 

[telectrix]

if there's the remains of a TN-S earth, then DNO are obliged to repair/maintain this at no cost. get onto their emergency number. tell them it's dangerous, and that you have isolated the supply and the customer has got no electric.

 

[i=p/u]

you could try 30mA rcd on tails aka power breaker

 

[Darkwood]

Also explain to customer you will be required to fit a 100amp switch fuse to give 1 point of isolation for the whole installaion, after costing this up including Henleys, seperate board and fitting you will looking at a similar price to just replacing the board on its own..... Explain to customer your report will highlight any isues with existing wiring but unless its potentially dangerous you will connect back up as is and leave it at that if that is what they wish, Gas and Water bonding should be including and already assessed with the work you have been ask to do.
Makes me laugh sometimes how people will spend thousands on new kitchens bathrooms etc while the house electrics are falling apart then cry poor boy when its highlighted.... arse about --- comes to mind.

 

[Engineer54]

As Telectrix stated, if there are definite signs of a previously DNO earthing provision from there PILS cable then they are obliged to maintain that provision.

Have you taken a Ze reading using the lead sheath as your earth?? I would confirm first, that the lead sheath is still providing a good earth provision, then you can know, if they are going to PME the supply or not... Either way, the obligation to maintain there existing earthing provision remains the same!!

 

[Knobhead]

Keep us posted as to the DNO’s response. Will be interesting to find out how much they try to charge to do their statutory duty.
I’m getting cynical now.

 

[telectrix]

........ IF you can get someone on the phone........ IF they know what you're talking about...... IF you don't get cut off mid conversation....... IF you don't get transferred to an answer phone.......IF they'll come out within a fortnight.....

 

[craig1000]

Hey everyone, thanks for your replies!
Did the job, & could not get the DNO to come out definite signs of an earth there previously & got a good reading from it. When telling them this & saying i thought it was there responsibility to maintain it all they would respond with is we don't install that type of system, all we do now is PME & its the customers responsibility to get an earth.
Didn't get a cost from them as he said it would need to be refereed to their regional field office for a quotation. told me to install a rod, & if i still wasn't happy to arrange a quotation.
My first dealings with DNO & aren't the infuriating in their attitude?
Got a good enough reading from the rod so all ok but its bloody mad their attitude.
Darkwood-Yes its madness the attitude of some customers, , you cannot put a price on life yet clearly some people are prepared too. Fancy fitting & furnishings yet no to electrical safety!

 

[Guitarist]

What you have been told is absolute rubbish. If there is a faulty TNS system in evidence then they must maintain it. Ask to speak to a manager, as the front desk will often try to fob you off.

 

[PB1]

I agree with Guitarist. Repairing this broken TNS earth is absolutely the DNO's responsibility. I think DNOs are normally pretty good at this sort of emergency stuff, but the problem is often getting them to understand what the problem is. if you can convince them it's dangerous and requires an emergency response they are usually there within a few hours.

 

[craig1000]

First spoke to them yesterday evening & at that point they were sending someone out within 3-4 hours to assess it & repair if needed! Myself willing to wait there, & then we return to the customer who clearly in my experience has no regard for electrical safety! Asked us to ring the DNO back to cancel them coming out as with all the work that had been going on he wanted to get out the house & away from it all. As much as we insisted it needed looking at unfortunately had to do as the customer wanted & cancel as if we didn't he or we wouldn't of been there when they came out. Rang back this morning, different staff member & different attitude. As i say this is my first experience dealing with them DNO i tried to be insistent but clearly not enough, not knowing the full responsibility's myself of who's job to provide or maintain. A grumpy customer & the easiest was to install a rod which is safe enough but it could be far better. Have advised the customer to further pursue the matter but very much doubt they will. ;-(
Maybe some slight in experience from my behalf but certainly something i shall be more aware of in the future! I come from a mainly commercial contracting back ground & have only recently gone into domestic & my own work!

 

[Knobhead]

Craig, you’ve done exactly what they wanted, you’ve now taken the responsibility from them on to yourself.

Don’t give up at the first hurdle, keep dogging them. It’s the DNO’s problem not yours.

 

[richy3333]

Craig - If the customer doesn't care, make sure you put something in writing cos one day it will all go -----up and come back to bite you!

 

[dingledong]

yes when he gets a belt and cant work for two weeks it will all be your fault .no matter what they say now . get something in writing just to cover yourself

 

[craig1000]

Tony- Yes it would appear I have & I wont make the same mistake again! As I said I come from a commercial back ground & have only just gone into domestic for myself so there's plenty I am unsure about.
Richy3333 & Dingledong-Thanks for that advice I shall go about doing that then. Any suggestions on the wording exactly? & on what? as a note on the cert?
What i have installed is safe & within limits during testing it could just be better, i.e loop readings are not amazing or as low as they would be a better earth path if through the lead of the cable or if changed to PME rather than the earth rod!
Where does my responsibility lie as i have not changed or touched his existing circuits on the existing consumer unit? The work i have installed all complies with current regs.

I wanted to do a full board change but he would not allow it even with my recommendation, to worried about old circuits holding in on a RCD.
Judging by what we ripped out the kitchen he has had work done by a DIYer at some point or had a go himself.
I hope not to make people think i dont know what im doing etc but coming from a commercial back ground into domestic is different & i would rather ask questions to get it right than bury my head in the sand & get it wrong, being honest. I have done my 17th & do have all literature & do look into it but sometimes the wording can confuse or it can be quicker to ask ;-)
Not trying to get my job done for me with your knowledge but with help! Sorry had to put as do feel slightly embarrassed not knowing ;-(

On another note,if i work on a lighting or any circuit in someone's house, which is not up to 17th do i force the issue that i must upgrade it to 17th & get it on a RCD or can i work on it & leave it just MCB protected as long as the test results comply?

 

[telectrix]

if you alter any circuit, you should fit an RCD/RCBO if such is required by current regs.

 

[Guitarist]

I really feel for you mate. It is a minefield starting out, the biggest problem being customers who just won't listen.
I know it is too late now, but in future if you see something you don't like before starting the job, make it a requirement that it is sorted before any work commences. It's the only way you will not stress and worry.
That way, if the customer is awkward, just walk away.....

 

[craig1000]

Telectrix- Thank you ;-)
That is the path i shall go down although i am sure this could result in potential customer's being scared off by the price? & possible additional works would it not?
I.e circuit working fine as it is, i break into to it for an additional light or socket say, means the added cost of a RCD or RCBO & then if the circuit is not holding in the added cost of finding & rectifying the fault! Agree it would then be safer & that is the route i shall take but has it not being shown to put customers off as a simple relatively low cost job could become allot more expensive!

 

[Guitarist]

Before you agree to RCD protect any circuit, IR the circuit line and neutral to earth first. That should pick up and obvious problems you may encounter.

 

[richy3333]

The Regs are a minefield and you haven't even yet had to consider the ambiguous parts! There's no substitute for getting your head down and learning them. I guess the onsite guide might help you particularly with situations like you have highlighted, with requirements for RCD protection when doing additions etc. If you are doing work such as what you have described, make sure you have a really good nosey about and do some tests prior to quoting so you aren't going in blind. If you had tested the external earth fault loop impedance before doing the job you would have found no earth etc. It's not a criticism but it highlights the need to do a good survey before starting work. At that point you could have flagged it to the customer and told them you'd come and do the work once they had arranged for the earth to be repaired?

If you have now created a TT system you need to make sure your work (and I guess the whole installation, because you will have to TT this also?) complies with the Regs for TT systems - up front 100ma RCD etc and all new/amended circuits protected by 30mA RCD/RCBO etc.

In so far as putting something in writing just list the facts out to the client as you have done previously in this thread. Something like:

Dear...
during the course of the electrical work you have employed me to do it has become apparent that the earthing arrangement supplied by the DNO is not operating. As they originally supplied an earth to the property they are required under ESQCR 2002/2006/2009 to maintain the earth. I have informed you of this and in fact assisted you in calling the DNO to arrange for them to visit. Unfortunately you were unable to allow them access at the time of their visit because... It is imperative that you contact... to arrange for the remedial work to be undertaken. The work I have completed to ensure the property is supplied with an earth should only be considered to be a temporary arrangement until such times as you allow... to attend at the property and rectify the problem.

Hope that helps?

P.S.
Customers are always your best friend until something goes wrong. Assume nothing when you visit properties to quote and don't be afraid to walk away as it's your backside on the line. The only thing worth a sleepless night is a hot babe

 

[Guitarist]

Well said rich. It's really hard to turn down work, but if the customer is awkward at the start then it doesn't bode well..... Never be afraid to walk away.

 

[craig1000]

Hey Rich3333, very much appreciate your response & its the exact thing im looking for. As iv said im being honest rather than leading people to believe what im not. I am a good spark with ten years experience but domestic electrics & the design of etc is a different game to me being an installation spark on a commercial site. What i can guarantee is that my work will be good & to the required standard (i know i clearly don't know things at the moment but will continue to swat up as i have been, both by asking questions on here etc & by reading through the big green book & on site guide etc) & il make sure i find out & learn what these things are domestically & in terms of testing etc. I can only learn as i go along with help hence my post on here. If i balls anything up i will correct it at my own cost if necessaries(in terms of making the wrong selection of something etc)
Safety is my most paramount concern & with regards to that job i shall do a letter to that effect & make sure in future i am much better prepared & do a better assessment when assessing!
The mental concern is the attitude of some customers, happy enough to spend a load on new kitchen & bathroom but not on decent electrics! As i mentioned earlier in thread, before i put the earth rod in there was nothing, the existing old wylex rewire able had a good loop reading but it was through the gas & water & existing circuits in the CU as i also got a reading without the gas & water bond connected! ;-(

 

[craig1000]

I really feel for you mate. It is a minefield starting out, the biggest problem being customers who just won't listen.
I know it is too late now, but in future if you see something you don't like before starting the job, make it a requirement that it is sorted before any work commences. It's the only way you will not stress and worry.
That way, if the customer is awkward, just walk away.....

Cheers mate, appreciate what your saying & hope i come across as i am which is someone who does care & does want to do it right & if i don't i shall sort it. As i say i come from a commercial background doping installation where im not responsible for the design etc & supply so issues like this are alien to me. I need to learn & will & do read the green books but its allot to take in & with help by asking on here i shall learn,! really hope i don't come across as a have a go spark. I am a decent one & my intentions are good but i need to learn more & be tougher when it comes to customers not wanting things done & better at my initial look at a job & be prepared to walk away!
Thanks again for your constructive posts ;-)

 

[Guitarist]

Craig, I come from an industrial background myself, and if something needed doing, we just did it. The customer is the hardest part of being self-employed in a domestic situation.

 

[craig1000]

Hey everyonw ho has replied on this thread, thanks for the reply's.
I would like to now clarify i am gona get this right.
I have installed a eart rod, readings are ok but would be far better if the lead sheaf was used as per original( i have loop tested of the stranded remain from the sheath) or if it was converted to PME.
This being the case i shall be issuing the customer a letter as described by richy3333 & getting a signed acceptance of this.
In the meantime the TT temporary supply i have created needs to be backed up front end by a 100 milliamp RCD, the cut out fuse is only 60amp so should i be looking to get a 63 amp, 100 milliamp, wholesalers were today struggling to find this? Would this suffice as the switch before i split the supply!
I am assuming i should just go ahead & take responsibility for his existing CU of old wylex rewirables & as that has no proper earth i shall earth it (have done already) & let the up front RCD cover both CU's (which i know now doing this i may as well have installed a new split load anyway) & if his circuits don't hold i shall rectify.
I apologise to anyone who thinks of me as not knowing what im doing & should do if i call myself a spark etc but the difference is i care to get it right, hence my continued postings ;-)

 

[telectrix]

on a TT system, you should be looking at fitting a 30mA RCD. i've not read every post, but it boils down to what the customer is prepared to spend. you have already made the installation safer, so if he won't pay for additional work, cut losses and walk away.

 

[craig1000]

Hi that is what i shall do then but at the same time knowing i haven't got it quite right bothers me. The new circuits i added are on a 63amp 30 milliamp RCD, kitchen sockets, cooker, & a spur upstairs.
His existing install is not as he wanted it left alone as he didn't want additional cost of me having to put it right if things started to trip.
His existing install has a far better loop reading than the new 6 way CU i have installed which is off the earth rod i have installed. I haven't yet moved any of his old circuits or put a earth onto his old CU from my new MET i installed from the earth rod as i am unsure if i should. If i do i will be giving his old install a far worse earth path & loop reading than what it has already but i am sure his existing path is through the bonds & or existing out going circuits cpc's.
It only has a 60 amp main fuse, 16 mm tails, I split this after the meter through 100 amp blocks & then fed my new CU & didn't touch any of the existing stuff.
Should i go back to add anything else or as you say walk away now.
Options would appear to be, move his circuits across to my new CU & turn it into a split load CU if they pass an IR test. back up the whole install via a 100 milliamp RCD before where i have split the supply. leaving it all off the earth rod but RCD protected.
Get some connection on to the existing bit of remaining cable that off the supply cable sheaf onto my MET & give everything a better earth ( I know this should be the DNO's responsibility) I have read conflicting info on whether a TT system needs 100 milliamp or 30 milliamp protection?
All my new circuits are protected by my new 63amp 30 milliamp main switch in the new CU, didn't split it as for obvious reasons of only having 3 circuits, & the rest of the house, up & down lights & sockets up & down one circuit are left on old CU so under fault condition & the RCD popping you will still have lighting & power.
If i need to go back at my cost to get i right i will!
Either way i will write the customer a letter explaining my position to cover my ---. The problem has arose from a customer not wanting to spend the money to be safe & me not being experienced or strong enough to insist on things & not having walked away when he wouldnt allow me to do a full job, i know i am at fault & i shall learn but in the meantime i want to get it as correct as i reasonably can.

 

[richy3333]

OK, it sounds as though you haven't touched his existing board and earthing? Just fitted your new board, circuits and the rod covers only your install? That being the case just make sure it is abundantly clear in you arse covering letter that his existing supply has a bad/ non existent earth. Get paid and walk away, the customer clearly doesn't care about his earth until it all goes -----up!

 

[Guitarist]

The "whole" of a TT system must be covered by at least a 100mA RCD, but there are several other circuit types which must have 30mA RCD protection, which is why it is easier and more cost-effective to use 30mA for the whole install. Look in your OSG for the list.
From what you are saying, the original is relying on the extraneous pipework, with the new on an electrode?

 

[Des 56]

Initially assessing the installation more thoroughly may have helped ,but thats a business decision not a safety decision,you will find your own degree of initial inspection required,nobody can tell you how much or little that should be



Writing a letter would be a fine thing to do,but personally I wouldn't give him or it the time of day
You will no doubt be issuing certification,there is a box in the certificate for comments on the existing installation
All of your comments can be highlighted on that certificate and a copy retained for future reference,why would a covering letter be any more effective


Many seem to believe that when we work in a property,we automatically assume responsibility for the whole of that installation and what a load of garbage that is

My advise If you have done your work adequately,the customer and the supplier dont seem too bothered about the existing, get on to the next job and don't take other peoples problems home with you

 

[richy3333]

Des 56. I appreciate what you say and don't necessary disagree. But the average Joe-public won't look at the certifcate. It will get filed with 'all the other house stuff' and at least a letter posted/emailed will draw their attention to the issue. Mention it on the cert and by letter - belt and braces job, and your teflon coated with no come back

 

[Guitarist]

I think the OP is doing this for peace of mind Des. I can understand that.

 

[craig1000]

OK, it sounds as though you haven't touched his existing board and earthing? Just fitted your new board, circuits and the rod covers only your install? That being the case just make sure it is abundantly clear in you arse covering letter that his existing supply has a bad/ non existent earth. Get paid and walk away, the customer clearly doesn't care about his earth until it all goes -----up!

Correct so this is what i shall do & learn heavily from the experience! thank you for your advice throughout ;-)

 

[craig1000]

The "whole" of a TT system must be covered by at least a 100mA RCD, but there are several other circuit types which must have 30mA RCD protection, which is why it is easier and more cost-effective to use 30mA for the whole install. Look in your OSG for the list.
From what you are saying, the original is relying on the extraneous pipework, with the new on an electrode?

Correct but but as the only bit covered by the TT system i have installed is my new works then i am covered i guess, all of what i have done which is the only stuff on the new TT system i have installed is covered by a 30 milliamp RCD.

 

[craig1000]

Initially assessing the installation more thoroughly may have helped ,but thats a business decision not a safety decision,you will find your own degree of initial inspection required,nobody can tell you how much or little that should be



Writing a letter would be a fine thing to do,but personally I wouldn't give him or it the time of day
You will no doubt be issuing certification,there is a box in the certificate for comments on the existing installation
All of your comments can be highlighted on that certificate and a copy retained for future reference,why would a covering letter be any more effective


Many seem to believe that when we work in a property,we automatically assume responsibility for the whole of that installation and what a load of garbage that is

My advise If you have done your work adequately,the customer and the supplier dont seem too bothered about the existing, get on to the next job and don't take other peoples problems home with you

Thank you Des, this does help as i have heard conflicting info on this before so as you say i don't take any responsibility for the existing, what i have done is up to standard & regs so i shall highlight the probs with his existing on the form & shall then invoice & walk away. Unhappy but safe in the knowledge i have done all i can in terms of what the customer would allow.

 

[craig1000]

I think the OP is doing this for peace of mind Des. I can understand that.

You are correct, although i accept i could have avoided some of this & its partially my fault, i hope what has come across is that i am not just a cowboy have a go idiot who doesn't care! There is stuff i don't know & am trying to learn but i shall & in the meantime i shall do all i can to get things right even at my cost if i **** up. I was taught that you are always learning no matter how much experience you have & in my opinion if you think you know it all then there is a problem & you could come unstuck.

 

[craig1000]

Des 56. I appreciate what you say and don't necessary disagree. But the average Joe-public won't look at the certifcate. It will get filed with 'all the other house stuff' and at least a letter posted/emailed will draw their attention to the issue. Mention it on the cert and by letter - belt and braces job, and your teflon coated with no come back [/QUOTE

Correct so i shall do both to give myself as much cover as poss. ;-)

 

[Knobhead]

Send the letter "recorded", OK it costs a bit more. You have proof of delivery.

 

[hillbillie]

Send the letter "recorded", OK it costs a bit more. You have proof of delivery.

e-mail it and don't delete it from your sent folder.

 

[Knobhead]

e-mail it and don't delete it from your sent folder.

Caries no weight in law!
A recorded letter does as it’s signed for.