No Earth available at the cut out?

[craig1000]

Hi need to clarify as quickly as possible a situation?
No clear main earth terminal at the incoming suppy?
small bit of stranded remains off the cable sheath but nut soething to connect to.
Definatly no earth rod!
I want to split the incoming supply after the meter via 100amp link blocks to provide a sub board to use for new circuits to be rcd protected feeding the kitchen & bathroom.
Customer doesnt want a full board change for fear of old wiring not holding in on a rcd.
No where to connect by earth from my new CU.
Can get a good Ze of 0.11 off the existing wylex rewirable CU but i am positive this is reading through the gas & water bonds & possibly even the cpc's in the outgoing circuits somehow.
Customer doesnt want me investigating & the cost involved of additional works the old wiring.
The DNO are not interested but should push them harder to come out & provide a MET?
Should they charge for this?
Should i put a rod in, trouble being in a built up street so where would be a problem.
Supply is a T-N-S fed via old lead paper underground cable.

Advice needed ASAP?

Thanks in advance!

 

[telectrix]

if there's the remains of a TN-S earth, then DNO are obliged to repair/maintain this at no cost. get onto their emergency number. tell them it's dangerous, and that you have isolated the supply and the customer has got no electric.

 

[i=p/u]

you could try 30mA rcd on tails aka power breaker

 

[Darkwood]

Also explain to customer you will be required to fit a 100amp switch fuse to give 1 point of isolation for the whole installaion, after costing this up including Henleys, seperate board and fitting you will looking at a similar price to just replacing the board on its own..... Explain to customer your report will highlight any isues with existing wiring but unless its potentially dangerous you will connect back up as is and leave it at that if that is what they wish, Gas and Water bonding should be including and already assessed with the work you have been ask to do.
Makes me laugh sometimes how people will spend thousands on new kitchens bathrooms etc while the house electrics are falling apart then cry poor boy when its highlighted.... arse about --- comes to mind.

 

[Engineer54]

As Telectrix stated, if there are definite signs of a previously DNO earthing provision from there PILS cable then they are obliged to maintain that provision.

Have you taken a Ze reading using the lead sheath as your earth?? I would confirm first, that the lead sheath is still providing a good earth provision, then you can know, if they are going to PME the supply or not... Either way, the obligation to maintain there existing earthing provision remains the same!!

 

[Knobhead]

Keep us posted as to the DNO’s response. Will be interesting to find out how much they try to charge to do their statutory duty.
I’m getting cynical now.

 

[telectrix]

........ IF you can get someone on the phone........ IF they know what you're talking about...... IF you don't get cut off mid conversation....... IF you don't get transferred to an answer phone.......IF they'll come out within a fortnight.....

 

[craig1000]

Hey everyone, thanks for your replies!
Did the job, & could not get the DNO to come out definite signs of an earth there previously & got a good reading from it. When telling them this & saying i thought it was there responsibility to maintain it all they would respond with is we don't install that type of system, all we do now is PME & its the customers responsibility to get an earth.
Didn't get a cost from them as he said it would need to be refereed to their regional field office for a quotation. told me to install a rod, & if i still wasn't happy to arrange a quotation.
My first dealings with DNO & aren't the infuriating in their attitude?
Got a good enough reading from the rod so all ok but its bloody mad their attitude.
Darkwood-Yes its madness the attitude of some customers, , you cannot put a price on life yet clearly some people are prepared too. Fancy fitting & furnishings yet no to electrical safety!

 

[Guitarist]

What you have been told is absolute rubbish. If there is a faulty TNS system in evidence then they must maintain it. Ask to speak to a manager, as the front desk will often try to fob you off.

 

[PB1]

I agree with Guitarist. Repairing this broken TNS earth is absolutely the DNO's responsibility. I think DNOs are normally pretty good at this sort of emergency stuff, but the problem is often getting them to understand what the problem is. if you can convince them it's dangerous and requires an emergency response they are usually there within a few hours.

 

[craig1000]

First spoke to them yesterday evening & at that point they were sending someone out within 3-4 hours to assess it & repair if needed! Myself willing to wait there, & then we return to the customer who clearly in my experience has no regard for electrical safety! Asked us to ring the DNO back to cancel them coming out as with all the work that had been going on he wanted to get out the house & away from it all. As much as we insisted it needed looking at unfortunately had to do as the customer wanted & cancel as if we didn't he or we wouldn't of been there when they came out. Rang back this morning, different staff member & different attitude. As i say this is my first experience dealing with them DNO i tried to be insistent but clearly not enough, not knowing the full responsibility's myself of who's job to provide or maintain. A grumpy customer & the easiest was to install a rod which is safe enough but it could be far better. Have advised the customer to further pursue the matter but very much doubt they will. ;-(
Maybe some slight in experience from my behalf but certainly something i shall be more aware of in the future! I come from a mainly commercial contracting back ground & have only recently gone into domestic & my own work!

 

[Knobhead]

Craig, you’ve done exactly what they wanted, you’ve now taken the responsibility from them on to yourself.

Don’t give up at the first hurdle, keep dogging them. It’s the DNO’s problem not yours.

 

[richy3333]

Craig - If the customer doesn't care, make sure you put something in writing cos one day it will all go -----up and come back to bite you!

 

[dingledong]

yes when he gets a belt and cant work for two weeks it will all be your fault .no matter what they say now . get something in writing just to cover yourself

 

[craig1000]

Tony- Yes it would appear I have & I wont make the same mistake again! As I said I come from a commercial back ground & have only just gone into domestic for myself so there's plenty I am unsure about.
Richy3333 & Dingledong-Thanks for that advice I shall go about doing that then. Any suggestions on the wording exactly? & on what? as a note on the cert?
What i have installed is safe & within limits during testing it could just be better, i.e loop readings are not amazing or as low as they would be a better earth path if through the lead of the cable or if changed to PME rather than the earth rod!
Where does my responsibility lie as i have not changed or touched his existing circuits on the existing consumer unit? The work i have installed all complies with current regs.

I wanted to do a full board change but he would not allow it even with my recommendation, to worried about old circuits holding in on a RCD.
Judging by what we ripped out the kitchen he has had work done by a DIYer at some point or had a go himself.
I hope not to make people think i dont know what im doing etc but coming from a commercial back ground into domestic is different & i would rather ask questions to get it right than bury my head in the sand & get it wrong, being honest. I have done my 17th & do have all literature & do look into it but sometimes the wording can confuse or it can be quicker to ask ;-)
Not trying to get my job done for me with your knowledge but with help! Sorry had to put as do feel slightly embarrassed not knowing ;-(

On another note,if i work on a lighting or any circuit in someone's house, which is not up to 17th do i force the issue that i must upgrade it to 17th & get it on a RCD or can i work on it & leave it just MCB protected as long as the test results comply?

 

[telectrix]

if you alter any circuit, you should fit an RCD/RCBO if such is required by current regs.

 

[Guitarist]

I really feel for you mate. It is a minefield starting out, the biggest problem being customers who just won't listen.
I know it is too late now, but in future if you see something you don't like before starting the job, make it a requirement that it is sorted before any work commences. It's the only way you will not stress and worry.
That way, if the customer is awkward, just walk away.....

 

[craig1000]

Telectrix- Thank you ;-)
That is the path i shall go down although i am sure this could result in potential customer's being scared off by the price? & possible additional works would it not?
I.e circuit working fine as it is, i break into to it for an additional light or socket say, means the added cost of a RCD or RCBO & then if the circuit is not holding in the added cost of finding & rectifying the fault! Agree it would then be safer & that is the route i shall take but has it not being shown to put customers off as a simple relatively low cost job could become allot more expensive!

 

[Guitarist]

Before you agree to RCD protect any circuit, IR the circuit line and neutral to earth first. That should pick up and obvious problems you may encounter.

 

[richy3333]

The Regs are a minefield and you haven't even yet had to consider the ambiguous parts! There's no substitute for getting your head down and learning them. I guess the onsite guide might help you particularly with situations like you have highlighted, with requirements for RCD protection when doing additions etc. If you are doing work such as what you have described, make sure you have a really good nosey about and do some tests prior to quoting so you aren't going in blind. If you had tested the external earth fault loop impedance before doing the job you would have found no earth etc. It's not a criticism but it highlights the need to do a good survey before starting work. At that point you could have flagged it to the customer and told them you'd come and do the work once they had arranged for the earth to be repaired?

If you have now created a TT system you need to make sure your work (and I guess the whole installation, because you will have to TT this also?) complies with the Regs for TT systems - up front 100ma RCD etc and all new/amended circuits protected by 30mA RCD/RCBO etc.

In so far as putting something in writing just list the facts out to the client as you have done previously in this thread. Something like:

Dear...
during the course of the electrical work you have employed me to do it has become apparent that the earthing arrangement supplied by the DNO is not operating. As they originally supplied an earth to the property they are required under ESQCR 2002/2006/2009 to maintain the earth. I have informed you of this and in fact assisted you in calling the DNO to arrange for them to visit. Unfortunately you were unable to allow them access at the time of their visit because... It is imperative that you contact... to arrange for the remedial work to be undertaken. The work I have completed to ensure the property is supplied with an earth should only be considered to be a temporary arrangement until such times as you allow... to attend at the property and rectify the problem.

Hope that helps?

P.S.
Customers are always your best friend until something goes wrong. Assume nothing when you visit properties to quote and don't be afraid to walk away as it's your backside on the line. The only thing worth a sleepless night is a hot babe