On peak off peak wired incorrectly?

[MeganS]

Hi
Absolutely 0 knowledge of this so excuse language / terms / explanation.

Electric only ground floor 2 bed flat ( 3 external walls)

On peak and off peak switches for immersion (water in a tank…goes to kitchen sink , shower , toilet and bathroom sink) - to note - this water is boiling hot - have turned thermostat down multiple times, think we’re on around 30c now????
If I turn ‘ON peak’ switch off & leave just ‘OFF peak’ on we end up without any hot water to sinks and electric shower.

On and off peak switches for storage heater. If I turn ‘ON peak’ switch off, this turns the power off to the storage heater (this is wrong, am I right?) which inevitably then leaves the ‘OFF peak’ switch irrelevant and it’s not doing anything.

Please please please can someone help me with this. I have absolutely no knowledge, I have had 4 electricians round my house and none of them can solve this issue (is it for plumber or electrician or combined???)
My bill is absolutely sky rocketing (not just due to increases as it was this way when I moved into the property 2 years ago and I have tried multiple times to solve) to put this into context I am being billed approx. £350 a month for a 2 bed ground floor flat…. This has been before the price increases also, since 2020 when we moved here and again I should add during winter months so problem kid mainly with storage heaters I believe but also immersion on peak off peak is wrong I believe.
EON refusing to help - say not their fault?
Paying ‘call out’ charges to electricians who cannot help…
My house is becoming covered in mould as I cannot keep up with the bill to heat my home and ventilate it correctly (too cold now with winter and a waste of the heat)
Thanks

 

[baldelectrician]

Some pictures of the current aet up would help

Without taking any covers off consumer units etc can you photograph your consumer unit and meter set up and post it online?

Several would be good
Close up and from a distance

 

[snowhead]

As above and also pictures of the wiring to the storage heater(s) with the On and Off peak switches.

To add, the storage heaters if supplied with On and Off peak only use the On peak for the controls and need both On and Off peak turned on to be able to work.

If the Hot water is getting to to 30c, there's either a fault with the thermostat, or it's set too high, within the immersion heater.
Even if the heater was left on 24/7 and you didn't use any Hot water the water should never get above 60c, if set correctly

 

[littlespark]

Do you have an actual off peak tariff with your supplier? Your bill should have 2 rates.

 

[MeganS]

Some pictures of the current aet up would help

Without taking any covers off consumer units etc can you photograph your consumer unit and meter set up and post it online?

Several would be good
Close up and from a distance

Some pictures of the current aet up would help

Without taking any covers off consumer units etc can you photograph your consumer unit and meter set up and post it online?

Several would be good
Close up and from a distance

Hoping this is what you’ve asked for…? Sorry I’m pathetic when it comes to this
I also don’t have an Allen key to hand to open up my meter outside
Will try by the end of today, will ask a neighbour to open
Thanks for your reply

 

[MeganS]

Do you have an actual off peak tariff with your supplier? Your bill should have 2 rates.

Thank you - Yes I do , see photo attached. This is another reason for my confusion. When I base my calculations off of these tarrif i.e. applicable wattage x hours of usage x p/kWh …. It isn’t adding up… so something somewhere to me is wrong ?

 

[MeganS]

As above and also pictures of the wiring to the storage heater(s) with the On and Off peak switches.

To add, the storage heaters if supplied with On and Off peak only use the On peak for the controls and need both On and Off peak turned on to be able to work.

If the Hot water is getting to to 30c, there's either a fault with the thermostat, or it's set too high, within the immersion heater.
Even if the heater was left on 24/7 and you didn't use any Hot water the water should never get above 60c, if set correctly

Photos attached
Thank you clarifying re storage heaters - to me it seemed wrong that the on peak was on all the time but like you say it’s being used for the control

Still unsure about thermostat as my water is too hot to even touch - we basically have cold showers as it’s generally ‘too hot’ on the middle or high temp on my elec shower.

 

[littlespark]

Is there any other equipment around the consumer unit?
Even cabling? Or is it all come from behind in the wall?

There are two immersion heaters. The lower one should be Off peak... will heat the entire tank overnight on cheap rate.
The higher one is a boost, and will only really heat the water above it, as a 'bit extra' during the day if you need it, controlled by a "Quartz E7" timer or similar that can give you an hour or so of power to the upper immersion during the day on the higher rate.

If its a general 7kW or whatever electric shower, then it would take cold water, and heat it itself. It doesnt need to take water from the hot tank.... A photo of the showers rating plate would help also. (white sticker on top or bottom of unit?)

 

[MeganS]

Is there any other equipment around the consumer unit?
Even cabling? Or is it all come from behind in the wall?

There are two immersion heaters. The lower one should be Off peak... will heat the entire tank overnight on cheap rate.
The higher one is a boost, and will only really heat the water above it, as a 'bit extra' during the day if you need it, controlled by a "Quartz E7" timer or similar that can give you an hour or so of power to the upper immersion during the day on the higher rate.

If its a general 7kW or whatever electric shower, then it would take cold water, and heat it itself. It doesnt need to take water from the hot tank.... A photo of the showers rating plate would help also. (white sticker on top or bottom of unit?)

No it is all in the wall, just the box showing in my porch.

Sorry when you say ‘the power should be off peak’ are you saying mine is wrong given on this photo the bottom one is on peak?
Do u suggest that I switch one of them off? As I am under the impression - like you say - that one of them should be for a ‘boost’ e.g. you have guests and need extra hot water….

Shower sticker attached. Excuse the dirt

 

[littlespark]

Ok.. so if the shower is giving problems with too much or too little heat, then its a problem with the shower itself.
It may be that its too big for the supply RCBO.... but you cant upgrade that unless the cable is big enough.
(9500 / 230v = 41A.... bigger than 32..... )

I couldn't tell by the photo which immersion is connected to which switch.

An electrician should be able to tell which is which, even with a non-contact detector would give a good indication.

Someone may correct me on the following.....

The E10 tariff would mean 7 hours off peak overnight, and another 3 during the day.

Depending how its all set up.... The older systems gave you cheap rate on all your electric overnight.... Newer ones, just the heating.
So the Hall Heater on the 3rd circuit could be on high rate all the time.

There is only 2 storage heaters on the Off peak, so where is the second immersion supplied from?

 

[snowhead]

As L-S above, there isn't a supply labelled for the Off Peak Immersion and there would normally be a controller with time clock set to switch on the lower Off peak imersion on during the off peak hours for 2 or 3 hrs.
As noted above Off Peak is probably 7 hrs overnight and 3 during the day.

Re the water temperature and the thermostats, the lower due to it's location should be around 45c and upper (middle of cylinder) should only be around 50c max, to get 60c at the top.
If the water is still too hot when you have them set at 30c then the thermostats need replacing.

 

[buzzlightyear]

What's the betting the other element is feed from the ring.

 

[MeganS]

Ok.. so if the shower is giving problems with too much or too little heat, then its a problem with the shower itself.
It may be that its too big for the supply RCBO.... but you cant upgrade that unless the cable is big enough.
(9500 / 230v = 41A.... bigger than 32..... )

I couldn't tell by the photo which immersion is connected to which switch.

An electrician should be able to tell which is which, even with a non-contact detector would give a good indication.

Someone may correct me on the following.....

The E10 tariff would mean 7 hours off peak overnight, and another 3 during the day.

Depending how its all set up.... The older systems gave you cheap rate on all your electric overnight.... Newer ones, just the heating.
So the Hall Heater on the 3rd circuit could be on high rate all the time.

There is only 2 storage heaters on the Off peak, so where is the second immersion supplied from?

The shower I’m not too fussed over re cost as it’s not on long enough to lose sleep over although my only concern is that the water is so hot due to the tank being boiled ‘like a kettle’ all day due to the switches being incorrect and the on peak kicking in all day?

I’ve had 4 electricians here and not many are able to tell me the problem, I did have one but he quoted me £10,000 to do a full replacement

For info - I have 3 500W electric dimplex heaters in hallway, room 1 and room 2
1 x XLE 1.5KW dimplex storage heater in living room / kitchen (open plan)

 

[MeganS]

What's the betting the other element is feed from the ring.

Thank you for your reply - I am Not sure what this means but assuming you are talking to the other professionals

 

[James]

Where exactly is the water too hot, sink or shower?

also, where is the thermostat that you are adjusting to change the water temperature?

 

[MeganS]

Where exactly is the water too hot, sink or shower?

also, where is the thermostat that you are adjusting to change the water temperature?

Both

Thermostat adjustment behind these 2 black knobs - circled in green on photos attached.

 

[MeganS]

Found the key for the meter

 

[MeganS]

Some pictures of the current aet up would help

Without taking any covers off consumer units etc can you photograph your consumer unit and meter set up and post it online?

Several would be good
Close up and from a distance

 

[buzzlightyear]

Thank you for your reply - I am Not sure what this means but assuming you are talking to the other professionals

yes, but I have found were some emersion heater are feed from the socket circuit .

 

[Avo Mk8]

Hi MeganS
In relation to the two switches "off-peak" and "on-peak" connected with white wires to the immersion heaters, could you follow the cable from the bottom switch and check if it goes to the bottom or top immersion, and similarly the other cable from the top switch goes to which immersion?
I am puzzled by the fact that the light is lit on the bottom switch - did you take the photo during the day, or at night (or to be more accurate, during 'off-peak)?
It would be good to know if the switches are labelled the right way round, and the above might confirm!

PS photo's of your meter etc helpful thank you!

 

[MeganS]

Hi MeganS
In relation to the two switches "off-peak" and "on-peak" connected with white wires to the immersion heaters, could you follow the cable from the bottom switch and check if it goes to the bottom or top immersion, and similarly the other cable from the top switch goes to which immersion?
I am puzzled by the fact that the light is lit on the bottom switch - did you take the photo during the day, or at night (or to be more accurate, during 'off-peak)?
It would be good to know if the switches are labelled the right way round, and the above might confirm!

PS photo's of your meter etc helpful thank you!

Thank you.
- Off peak switch cable goes to the top knob. - On peak switch cable goes to the bottom knob.

Which would appear correct?

 

[Avo Mk8]

Thank you.
- Off peak switch cable goes to the top knob. - On peak switch cable goes to the bottom knob.

Which would appear correct?

Not in my opinion!
I'm thinking what you call a knob is the cover of each immersion heater, which has the thermostat adjusting knob in it.

The bottom immersion is there to heat the whole tank, and that is the one normally powered by off-peak.
The upper immersion is for a "boost" if you run out of hot, normally fed from on-peak.
Does the light on the on-peak switch actually stay on all the time?

My first thought is that they are wired the wrong way round, but at this time of night I could be wrong. No doubt someone will be along to comment!

 

[marconi]

How far away from the Dartford Crossing is your home?

 

[Avo Mk8]

Following on from my comment above, it still could be that both immersion heaters are running from the on-peak supply, together with the hall heater as mentioned previously. The thermostat in the bottom immersion seems to need attention, all as per Snowhead in post #11, as well as checking that the upper immersion is actually functioning.

 

[Avo Mk8]

So far it appears:

• the 'off-peak' section of the consumer unit seems to be fed from a DNO/Eon contactor, so should actually be 'off-peak'!
• (anybody care to comment on the presumably timed neutral feed to the contactor from meter, what's the other to the Henley?)
• the right hand 'off-peak' MCB position labelled 'immersion' has had the breaker removed
• so we don't know where power for the immersion heaters is now coming from.
• the bottom immersion heater works, but seems to need a new thermostat
• the top immersion heater does not work, but we don't know if it's lack of power, fuse, thermal cutout or faulty element etc.
• the flex to each of the immersion heaters seems to be transposed compared with what you would expect.
• the 3 x 500W Dinplex (presumably panel, not storage) heaters in the hallway are powered from peak rate electricity, which may be correct for that type of heater,

You would think it would be relatively straightforward for a competent electrician to sort this out !