QS and electrical Installation certificates

[Pete999]

Here's a first, I have a question regarding Domestic 3 signature EICs, not having much to do with Domestic for a very long time way before the onset of the introduction of the QS, as I understand it the 3 signatures required are: the Installation designer, the Installer and the QS, before the QS actually signs off the cert, does He/She have to carry out any testing? or is it just a case of checking the cert to ensure it has been filled out correctly?

 

[davesparks]

The three signatures refers to the designer, constructor/installer and the inspector/tester as per the model forms in bs7671.
On scheme members certificates there is an additional position for the qualified supervisor to sign to say that they have reviewed the certificate and all is well. It is up to them to decide what they need to do to confirm that all is well.

 

[Pete999]

The three signatures refers to the designer, constructor/installer and the inspector/tester as per the model forms in bs7671.
On scheme members certificates there is an additional position for the qualified supervisor to sign to say that they have reviewed the certificate and all is well. It is up to them to decide what they need to do to confirm that all is well.

Thanks Dave clears that question up nicely.

 

[Ian1981]

You can have 3 separate signatures for design, install and testing or one signature for all 3 areas design,installed and testing with the qs to counter sign the eic.
That's the niceic ones anyway.

Domestic types certificate or single phase installations upto 100amps is only one signature for installer /tested by and one for qs

 

[Pete999]

You can have 3 separate signatures for design, install and testing or one signature for all 3 areas design,installed and testing with the qs to counter sign the eic.
That's the niceic ones anyway.

Domestic types certificate is only one signature for installer /tested by and one for qs

In that scenario Ian, would the QS have to do any actual testing?, it seems from Dave's reply and Yours the different Schemes have differing views on how to do things, or is it, as you say just a counter signature, with the QS trusting the individual who did the testing, has tested correctly. Thanks for your reply Ian.

 

[Ian1981]

It's upto the QS pete but they aren't required to test on the certificate unless it's them who have tested it, so there's an element of trust involved as it's the operative who's tested it that then signs it
Obviously a QS may check against certain persons who maybe need more guidance than more experience trusted shall I say individuals
The QS will need to check over the certificate regardless to see it's been correctly filled in and all results read right as it where.

It's always a good idea to do spot checks I'd say but that's upto the company duty holder and the individual QS

 

[Pete999]

It's upto the QS pete but they aren't required to test so there's an element of trust involved.
Obviously a QS may check against certain persons who maybe need more guidance than more experience trusted shall I say individuals
The QS will need to check over the certificate regardless to see it's been correctly filled in and all results read right as it where.

It's always a good idea to do spot checks I'd say but that's upto the company duty holder and the individual QS

Thought that might be the case. Confusion reigns again.

 

[Ian1981]

Thought that might be the case. Confusion reigns again.

Yeah I might be wrong but it could be a bit of a poisoned chalice position as you may leave yourself open to be investigated if anything goes wrong on other people's work which you may have signed off the eic
Maybe?

 

[Pete999]

Yeah I might be wrong but it could be a bit of a poisoned chalice position as you may leave yourself open to be investigated if anything goes wrong on other people's work which you may have signed off the eic
Maybe?

A mate of mine was a QS but he was shafted by the firm he worked for, doing OK now I believe. Gone SE.

 

[Ian1981]

A mate of mine was a QS but he was shafted by the firm he worked for, doing OK now I believe. Gone SE.

Good for him.
Been asked before but I have to bite my tounge too much as it is where I'm working so it's a no from me on that position.

 

[Strima]

All the QS is doing is signing to say the cert has been reviewed and found to be in compliance with BS7671 etc. Just acts as a admin/audit trail.

There are no set rules for QS, some like to sit behind a desk and others, like myself, get out on the ground with the lads/lasses and actually look at their standard of work and sort out any issues on the ground.

 

[Pete999]

All the QS is doing is signing to say the cert has been reviewed and found to be in compliance with BS7671 etc. Just acts as a admin/audit trail.

There are no set rules for QS, some like to sit behind a desk and others, like myself, get out on the ground with the lads/lasses and actually look at their standard of work and sort out any issues on the ground.

So in effect if what you are saying is the norm, the QS is the fall guy should the brown stuff hits the fan?

 

[Toneyz]

This was sent to me when my old boss was telling the NICEIC that he did not need to replace the QS that had retired I was only the voluntary additional Q.S. which got him out of the s...t as there was 10 electricians all doing a fix a day (aprox) spread over an area when he started to sign our signatures that the game was up

 

[Pete999]

View attachment 36967
View attachment 36966

From what you have told me Ant, during our conversations of the past months, many firms, not just the small ones, but larger ones like the outfit you were working for, treat both QS and the CP Schemes as a conduit to get more work, and pay lip service to the said CP Schemes, pay their dues and hope all is well, especially the new build housing merchants.
The QS are the fall guys for the managements failures, they would pass the buck in the QS direction without blinking an eyelid, so much for policing this industry.

 

[Toneyz]

The only reason that they managed to keep in the scheme was they could see that I was trying. In the end it all came back to bit him.

 

[Pete999]

The only reason that they managed to keep in the scheme was they could see that I was trying. In the end it all came back to bit him.

Just goes to show that you can be a lone cowboy and get away with it or you can be a posse of cowboys and still get away with it, about time the CPS took a good look at themselves and got their act together, imo

 

[Toneyz]

Just goes to show that you can be a lone cowboy and get away with it or you can be a posse of cowboys and still get away with it, about time the CPS took a good look at themselves and got their act together, imo

There was only one person with the spurs there

 

[Pete999]

There was only one person with the spurs there

If it's rotten at the top then it's rotten through and through, just like an Apple, good job you got out Mate.

 

[hightower]

Can I take this thread a different way slightly for a minute, but based on a theme that has already been mentioned in brief. The model forms state they are for installations up to 100A - in the work I've been involved in this has been sufficient but what forms are used for bigger installs? Has anyone got a 100A+ model form, and where would they typically be used?

Thanks

 

[Strima]

So in effect if what you are saying is the norm, the QS is the fall guy should the brown stuff hits the fan?

This is where the good habit of getting everything in black and white and storing it for future reference comes into play.

Also going around and auditing sites during works and on completion not only ensures the work is being done correctly but also enables me to identify the less conscientious employees and apply a little more pressure on them to get the job done correctly.

My arse is covered if anything does go wrong. It pays to be proactive and be forceful with the management. It does take a lot of hard work to keep on top of things, good job I don't really care about upsetting management...

 

[Ian1981]

Good for him

Can I take this thread a different way slightly for a minute, but based on a theme that has already been mentioned in brief. The model forms state they are for installations up to 100A - in the work I've been involved in this has been sufficient but what forms are used for bigger installs? Has anyone got a 100A+ model form, and where would they typically be used?

Thanks

just use the standard electrical installation certificate.
The single phase 100amp ones are just less pages for the full scope single phase brings.

 

[Pete999]

This is where the good habit of getting everything in black and white and storing it for future reference comes into play.

Also going around and auditing sites during works and on completion not only ensures the work is being done correctly but also enables me to identify the less conscientious employees and apply a little more pressure on them to get the job done correctly.

My arse is covered if anything does go wrong. It pays to be proactive and be forceful with the management. It does take a lot of hard work to keep on top of things, good job I don't really care about upsetting management...

A valid point Strima, problem is that there are some unscrupulous managers out there, "toe the line or look for another job" and jobs are few and far between these days. You might say not these days employment protection and all that, that' OK if you work for a large employer who doesn't want an unfair dismissal tribunal hanging over them, but believe me if you rock the boat there are ways of getting rid of a, shall we say trouble maker.

 

[hightower]

just use the standard electrical installation certificate.
The single phase 100amp ones are just less pages for the full scope single phase brings.

You mean this one? That states it's only for use up to 100A?

 

[Ian1981]

You mean this one? That states it's only for use up to 100A?

View attachment 36968

No the commercial ones

 

[hightower]

No the commercial ones

NOt sure which ones you mean bud

 

[Ian1981]

NOt sure which ones you mean bud

 

[hightower]

But that's assuming the person needing 100A+ forms is NICEIC registered.

 

[Ian1981]

But that's assuming the person needing 100A+ forms is NICEIC registered.

I've only ever worked for niceic companies so I don't know about other schemes certs , but I'd imagine you can get them

 

[hightower]

But surely if BS7671 is the rule book we all bow to, we should be able to get templates from there much like we can get forms for up to 100A.

 

[Toneyz]

I've only ever worked for niceic companies so I don't know about other schemes certs , but I'd imagine you can get them

Yes you can get the green version of this for non-NICEIC approved contractors

 

[hightower]

Yes you can get the green version of this for non-NICEIC approved contractors

You're missing my point. You can get forms for certain installations in the regs we all follow, so why do I then need to go and buy a different set off a third party in order to certify a larger install? It's barmy. It's a bit like the fire regs saying "here's the form you've got to complete in order to comply, but be careful because anymore than 3 alarms in the system and you need a different form that costs money"

 

[Deleted member 26818]

The IET provides model forms for up to 100A supplies, they don't provide them for larger supplies.
You can use the model forms for up to 100A supplies or make your own based on the model forms.
For supplies greater than 100A you have to make your own.
If you don't want to make your own, you can use forms made by someone else.

 

[hightower]

The IET provides model forms for up to 100A supplies, they don't provide them for larger supplies.
You can use the model forms for up to 100A supplies or make your own based on the model forms.
For supplies greater than 100A you have to make your own.
If you don't want to make your own, you can use forms made by someone else.

So I can make my own that is essentially exactly the same except I'll remove the bit about "only for up to 100a". Jobs a good 'un then, why can't the IET do that for us then?

 

[Toneyz]

Why don't you just buy a book of electrical installation certificates based upon BS7671 from the local wholesalers ?If not someone posted on here forms you can fill in (I'm sure someone on here will be able to find them)if you are only after one

 

[westward10]

Make your own up Appendix 6 is informative.

 

[hightower]

Make your own up Appendix 6 is informative.

So my own could be a smoke packet with a couple numbers and a signature on it? That'd be to regs? I'm not trying to be funny.

I just don't get why we have to do a regs course and buy updated materials every few years and they can't even give us a blank form to go off - I've got to buy a pack from the wholesalers or buy from a third party that is making a killing.

 

[westward10]

Make your own, we do and keep them as simple as possible and our scheme provider has never had a problem with them. One thing the NICEIC will do is overcomplicate the most simplest of things but a smoke box may be difficult to duplicate /file
Appendix 6 will give all the info you require for your own format but this is not cast in stone.

 

[hightower]

Don't suppose you can share your home made jobby for research purposes, obviously sensitive data removed/obscured?

 

[Toneyz]

I hope you can open this please check it meets bs7671

 

[Risteard]

So I can make my own that is essentially exactly the same except I'll remove the bit about "only for up to 100a". Jobs a good 'un then, why can't the IET do that for us then?

You're missing the point - BS7671 is making clear that the model forms are only appropriate for small installations. For larger/more complex installations then these will need to consider all sorts of other things depending on the type and complexity of the installation. In essence, you need to make your own forms up.

NICEIC Approved Contractors obviously have access to the forms the NICEIC have made up with all of the different items in the Schedule of Inspections and other parts of the paperwork which they consider to be relevant to larger installations.

 

[hightower]

You're missing the point - BS7671 is making clear that the model forms are only appropriate for small installations. For larger/more complex installations then these will need to consider all sorts of other things depending on the type and complexity of the installation. In essence, you need to make your own forms up.

NICEIC Approved Contractors obviously have access to the forms the NICEIC have made up with all of the different items in the Schedule of Inspections and other parts of the paperwork which they consider to be relevant to larger installations.

If NICEIC can manage to make a form that they feel encompasses the requirements of larger installations, why can't the IET?

 

[Risteard]

If NICEIC can manage to make a form that they feel encompasses the requirements of larger installations, why can't the IET?

It's not that they couldn't - it's that they are suggesting that you need to use what is appropriate to the type/complexity of the installation. The NICEIC have decided to compile a standard form for their contractors with everything they consider necessary. It's not really a contradiction - they are different bodies with different purposes. JPEL/64 write the Regulations whereas the NICEIC assess registered contractors.

 

[Toneyz]

The IET are not producing a certificate for use just indicating what needs to be included in a draft formation.

 

[davesparks]

So I can make my own that is essentially exactly the same except I'll remove the bit about "only for up to 100a". Jobs a good 'un then, why can't the IET do that for us then?

If they made a model form for the schedule of inspections which covers everything then it would end up with a ridiculous number of pages, most of which would not be applicable to each installation you use it on.
How many additional pages of inspection items would you need just to cover every special location, and how often would you be filling in those sections as N/A?

It's only the schedule of inspections which normally needs to be customised to each job, and they do provide a list of examples of items to be inspected. Ideally the schedule of inspections which need to be carried out for initial verification would be drawn up by the designers of the installation.

Also you might find you need one schedule of inspections for the intake, and another different one for each individual DB.
If there are say 20 DBs in an installation then each one may need inspecting, testing and commissioning separately. So you'd want to record each inspection and test which is carried out.

 

[Sparkingmad]

I have been a QS for 18yrs and NICEIC stipulate that 1 QS is needed and any others are voluntary. When the main QS leaves and they are notified they ask the employer who is taking over the role if there are more than 1. The voluntary QS in most cases doesn't even get consulted by his employer if he wants the role full time and the NICEIC don't ask the nominated QS they just transfer the role over. I think this is totally wrong. When you are a QS it is very much your neck on the line every time a set of scribbled down test results are handed to you to then compile a full EIC certificate. I have been on the receiving end and it isn't a nice place to be. Especially when some of the sparks say that's your job or that's why your paid more than me. They don't realise that once they go home they forget about work till the next day. A QS or manager doesn't get that luxury as they are responsible for the H&S method statements and certification of their next jobs. In truth most QS are on the tools trying to do their own work on top of worrying about the quality of work of the other muppets and the certifying of the jobs. All this for £1 or £2 an hour more per hour. Only the really big firms pay what I think is a fair wedge for a QS and the role is an office based one with site visits to oversea the work force and quality of standards.