Quals needed

[DPG]

Ok i think trying to sign up for a membership scheme like NAPIT or NICEIC is the quickest and cheapest route although i'm not sure they'll accept you without a level 3 qualification - apparently they're changing their rules September 1st.

Best bet is to ring them and ask what they want for joining.

Ps - you can do ANY work you want in a domestic setting with no qualifications as long as you're 'competent' (ie if you think/know you can do it safely.) You just won't be able to sign off notifiable work but you can get building control to do it. I heard someone on a vid the other day say that if you join the council's scheme it's like £80 per visit, so if for example you did a rewire you'd just tack that expense onto the price.

Technically it's not even your responsibility to notify, it's the homeowners, but they might get a shock if they come to sell and are asked for their paperwork only to find out their electrician didn't tell them they needed it.

In your situation i'd say look, i'm not part of a scheme because they're scams, but if you want to sell any time soon you'll have to get it signed off and it will cost X. I can sort it for you.

Just in case you're interested, here are a few links for the experienced worker route (but these are for Gold Cards which you prob don't want) Experienced Worker Assessment | Joint Industry Board (JIB) - https://www.jib.org.uk/experienced-worker-assessment and C&G2346 Experienced Worker Route - https://www.electricaltrainingcourses.co.uk/CG2346-Experienced-Worker-Route/

I can't believe you're advising him to do notifiable work for paying customers, but only sign it off if they sell the house.

Have I misunderstood??

 

[Electrics]

Quickest shortest route. No such route. There are no short cuts into this profession.

the best people to ask are niceic, napit, or any of the other cps bodies.

without a level 3 qualification you will not get registered.
you used to be able to get registered with just the level 2 but that has recently changed.
another 2 or 3years at college should do it.

In that case he can do the experienced worker route since his work experience would suggest he doesn't need to go to college for 3 years.

@Luke105 if they need Level 3 your options are:

1. Do a short course for the Level 3 - you'll have to convince them that you're good to skip over Level 2 which most (probably all) won't allow. Cost about £3k.
2. Do a short course for Level 2 and 3. Cost about £5k.
3. Go to college - unless you can convince them you can skip Level 2 this will take a minimum of 2 years at college a couple of days a week.
4. Go the experienced worker route which I posted above. You'll need 2391-50 Testing and Inspection, 18th Edition, 2346 NVQ portfolio and then do the AM2E. Cost will be about £3-4k in total and will take 6+ months.

In your situation if you insist on being able to sign off your own work the shortest route is number 4. For 1 and 2 above i'm not sure if they're still accepted - they should be since they are the full whack qualification but i believe the 'domestic installer' route is no longer allowed.

Personally i would go on working and explain to the customer that they have to pay extra for building control certification. If they say no but still want you to do the work you just have to make them aware that it's their responsibility to inform and that they say no at their own risk. It's really nothing to do with you, as per the official government guidance.

It's either that or several thousand pounds and 6-12months+ of your time to be able to get some irrelevant paperwork that doesn't change the outcome of your work. Problem is getting priced out of jobs, though.

 

[Electrics]

I can't believe you're advising him to do notifiable work for paying customers, but only sign it off if they sell the house.

Have I misunderstood??

Yes.

I simply said it's the homeowners responsibility to get work signed off, see here: Do I need building regulations approval for electrical work? | LABC - https://www.labc.co.uk/homeowners/do-i-need-building-regulations-application-specific-projects/electrical-work

These are an authoritative body linked to from the .gov website and they say very clearly that anyone can undertake the work and that it's the homeowners responsibility to notify:

The regulations do not stop you doing your own work or using an unregistered tradesperson, but you will need to make a Building Regulations Application for approval.

I said he could explain this to the customer, and that he has to charge a fee to notify building control on top of the fee for the work. Some customers would say no. If they do, they need to be made aware that it's their responsibility to notify building control or they will have problems when they come to sell. It doesn't matter what anyone feels about this route, this is a viable and acceptable route as laid down by the government and perfectly OK for @Luke105 to do.

I'm not recommending he do anything, and i certainly didn't tell him to just say 'balls to building control' (not sure why anyone thinks i did), just outlining the situation as best i know it.

 

[loz2754]

Personally i would go on working and explain to the customer that they have to pay extra for building control certification.

I think most customers would just pick a registered electrician, rather than be faced with an LBC fee in the hundreds of pounds notes, on top of the electrician's fees.

 

[Electrics]

I think most customers would just pick a registered electrician, rather than be faced with an LBC fee in the hundreds of pounds notes, on top of the electrician's fees.

Well yeah, but then the problem is real competent people are priced out of the industry because they're not eligible to join a scam provider.

The choices then are don't work, or just don't bother with building control. What do you think people will do? Gotta put food on the table especially in a pandemic world with so much uncertainty.

Part P is an absolute joke of a scheme anyway, you don't have to put up with this nonsense in any other country.

If everyone did say 'balls to it' maybe they'd have to change tack.

 

[Luke105]

Yes I would rather be registered electrician as I feel customers would want this.
I may have to try the experienced worker route and see if that will do. If not I’ll really have to look at my options. I just cannot live off an apprentice wage with my financial and family commitments so it really does eliminate this option.

 

[timhoward]

Well yeah, but then the problem is real competent people are priced out of the industry because they're not eligible to join a scam provider.

There are ways for anyone who knows what they are doing and has 18th Edition and has enough experience to get into a scam provider. Such as recently introduced NA7232-5 exam which will filter out anyone claiming to have experience they don't have. e.g. one exam section is finding 13 faults on a 3 phase rig.
I not suggesting this is a suitable route for the OP as testing and inspection experience both in conducting tests and interpreting results would be required, and you unfortunately can't learn that overnight or from youtube.

My advice for the OP is to find a way of building experience, and crucially in the testing and certification areas. A 2391-52 course would be ideal if time / money permits - some places do 10 evenings once a week. If you can pass 2391-52, and have a bit of experience, you might get into the schemes via the mature assessment route in lieu of the core-qualification.

 

[Electrics]

Yes I would rather be registered electrician as I feel customers would want this.
I may have to try the experienced worker route and see if that will do. If not I’ll really have to look at my options. I just cannot live off an apprentice wage with my financial and family commitments so it really does eliminate this option.

You might get more than you think. Do you have a partner? Try the calculator at entitledto.

I have a wife and 2.5 kids (another due in 5 weeks!) and the calculator says that should I get an apprenticeship at £4.30 an hour, my wife and kids would get Universal Credit top up meaning we'd be bringing in close to £2k a month.

I've tried to get in touch with someone at the government to confirm this (since i'm looking for an apprenticeship myself and am also 34) but nobody has gotten back to me yet.

 

[Electrics]

There are ways for anyone who knows what they are doing and has 18th Edition and has enough experience to get into a scam provider. Such as recently introduced NA7232-5 exam which will filter out anyone claiming to have experience they don't have. e.g. one exam section is finding 13 faults on a 3 phase rig.
I not suggesting this is a suitable route for the OP as testing and inspection experience both in conducting tests and interpreting results would be required, and you unfortunately can't learn that overnight or from youtube.

My advice for the OP is to find a way of building experience, and crucially in the testing and certification areas. A 2391-52 course would be ideal if time / money permits - some places do 10 evenings once a week. If you can pass 2391-52, and have a bit of experience, you might get into the schemes via the mature assessment route in lieu of the core-qualification.

Interesting to know mate, thanks for the heads up i didn't know you could do a scheme-based in-house assessment.

 

[Luke105]

You might get more than you think. Do you have a partner? Try the calculator at entitledto.

I have a wife and 2.5 kids (another due in 5 weeks!) and the calculator says that should I get an apprenticeship at £4.30 an hour, my wife and kids would get Universal Credit top up meaning we'd be bringing in close to £2k a month.

I've tried to get in touch with someone at the government to confirm this (since i'm looking for an apprenticeship myself and am also 34) but nobody has gotten back to me yet.

I do already have a job though £26,100 a year so it’s the fact of me leaving a job to be an apprentice and then claiming universal credit. Is that allowed?

 

[Electrics]

I do already have a job though £26,100 a year so it’s the fact of me leaving a job to be an apprentice and then claiming universal credit. Is that allowed?

You'd be leaving a job for a job, and since it's lower-paid UC should kick in. I'd try and get some advice from someone.

If that's doable then it would only be for one year anyway as your wages would go up for the second year to minimum wage.

I'm not sure if i'm a special case on the calculator since i don't have rent or a mortgage to pay so the money would be plenty for me, but maybe not for someone with a stay at home spouse and £750+ of housing costs every month.

 

[Luke105]

You might get more than you think. Do you have a partner? Try the calculator at entitledto.

I have a wife and 2.5 kids (another due in 5 weeks!) and the calculator says that should I get an apprenticeship at £4.30 an hour, my wife and kids would get Universal Credit top up meaning we'd be bringing in close to £2k a month.

I've tried to get in touch with someone at the government to confirm this (since i'm looking for an apprenticeship myself and am also 34) but nobody has gotten back to me yet.

Sorry just to add. It’s me, my mrs and our baby. We have a mortgage and she will be returning to work in February full time (currently on maternity leave)

 

[Electrics]

Sorry just to add. It’s me, my mrs and our baby. We have a mortgage and she will be returning to work in February full time (currently on maternity leave)

Ah right then it's a different situation to us. My wife is stay-at-home as she schools the kids.

If your missus is on a regular full time wage i don't think you'd be entitled to anything since that would be like £1600+£690 a month which is deemed plenty to live on by the government.

 

[Luke105]

Ah right then it's a different situation to us. My wife is stay-at-home as she schools the kids.

If your missus is on a regular full time wage i don't think you'd be entitled to anything since that would be like £1600+£690 a month which is deemed plenty to live on by the government.

Which it isn’t as how would we possibly pay for a mortgage and childcare out of that ?

 

[Electrics]

Which it isn’t as how would we possibly pay for a mortgage and childcare out of that ?

This is why i went the 'save money and buy a crap starter home outright' route and why i still drive an 18 year old Mondeo ?

 

[Deleted account]

@Luke105 it’s a bit worrying the advice you are getting from this forum right now. I’m not a site mentor or moderator, but I really think someone on here should give you some good advice as some of the advice you’ve received up to now is shocking.

there are different routes and it does take time. It has to take time if you want to be good at what you do.

i was also a late comer into electrics. About 35 I think I’m now 49.
4 years at college the fourth year whilst working with qualified sparks another year after that trading minor works. Then registered with niceic.
Best time spent training ever. Worth taking the longer route. If I’d taken the shortcut I really would have struggled.

keep going it’s hard financially. I know. But it’s worth it.

 

[Luke105]

@Luke105 it’s a bit worrying the advice you are getting from this forum right now. I’m not a site mentor or moderator, but I really think someone on here should give you some good advice as some of the advice you’ve received up to now is shocking.

there are different routes and it does take time. It has to take time if you want to be good at what you do.

i was also a late comer into electrics. About 35 I think I’m now 49.
4 years at college the fourth year whilst working with qualified sparks another year after that trading minor works. Then registered with niceic.
Best time spent training ever. Worth taking the longer route. If I’d taken the shortcut I really would have struggled.

keep going it’s hard financially. I know. But it’s worth it.

Yes don’t think that would be an option. We need to bring in 2 full time wages.

I hoped for either an evening course or crash courses.
I see what you mean about the experience but I feel on domestics it’s not anything of severe difficulty and obviously I have done this umpteen times anyway.

 

[Electrics]

Yes don’t think that would be an option. We need to bring in 2 full time wages.

I hoped for either an evening course or crash courses.
I see what you mean about the experience but I feel on domestics it’s not anything of severe difficulty and obviously I have done this umpteen times anyway.

I feel there is a great deal of elitism in this game where people make out you have to do it like they did it, especially if they did the 'long' route.

Let's have it right, domestic electrics is hardly mindblowing stuff, most of it is quite basic and hard to get badly wrong if you keep the on-site guide and regs handy, and ask questions when you don't know.

I feel people are basically telling you you have to go the long route or not to bother, which imo is just people attempting to shut others out of the industry since it's just not that simple for most. To be told 'go do X years at college' or 'get an apprenticeship' when you've already said it's not an option is disheartening. Everyone else is also ignoring the experience you already have and are treating you as if you're brand new coming in from an office job or something.

If there was a proper route in for older learners we'd all take it but there isn't. The alternative is having to cut some corners in terms of time spent in order to get out there on site to be able to get some experience together off your own back.

Yeah it's not ideal but the alternative is give up and go do something else.

It's not going to take years and years to be able to do as good a job as a time served spark on the installation side if you already have a background in domestic construction. There are not many ways you can mash up socket installation if you've got half a brain.

The real test comes from figuring out what someone else has left you with and fault finding/testing.

I just don't find it productive for people to snark at adult learners trying to break into the industry. If there were proper opportunities for retraining these conversations wouldn't exist.

I know i'm not going to let any of it stop me and I will do as good if not a better job than any 19 year old freshly qualified man.

If you need to do work and inform the customer that they need to get building control to OK it, then do that, it's perfectly within the law and is part of government guidance that this is the procedure. There's no rule saying electricians have to do it, it's part of the homeowners responsibility. Just because some think it is the electrician's job doesn't mean that's correct, it's just the way they choose to handle that situation.

I know in my situation, if i need to do that to be able to 1. bring money in and 2. satisfy a portfolio that i'm building, then i'm going to do it. It's just a red tape issue, it's not like you're jumping on a massive industrial supply without knowing what you'e doing, just chancing it and doing a dangerous job. It's just simply cutting a corner on the bureaucracy.

The government say it's ok. The council say it's ok. If people think you're a cowboy for doing that just because they don't do it that way then so be it.

Good luck mate, hope you get to where you want to be.

 

[DPG]

I feel there is a great deal of elitism in this game where people make out you have to do it like they did it, especially if they did the 'long' route.

Let's have it right, domestic electrics is hardly mindblowing stuff, most of it is quite basic and hard to get badly wrong if you keep the on-site guide and regs handy, and ask questions when you don't know.

I feel people are basically telling you you have to go the long route or not to bother, which imo is just people attempting to shut others out of the industry since it's just not that simple for most. To be told 'go do X years at college' or 'get an apprenticeship' when you've already said it's not an option is disheartening. Everyone else is also ignoring the experience you already have and are treating you as if you're brand new coming in from an office job or something.

If there was a proper route in for older learners we'd all take it but there isn't. The alternative is having to cut some corners in terms of time spent in order to get out there on site to be able to get some experience together off your own back.

Yeah it's not ideal but the alternative is give up and go do something else.

It's not going to take years and years to be able to do as good a job as a time served spark on the installation side if you already have a background in domestic construction. There are not many ways you can mash up socket installation if you've got half a brain.

The real test comes from figuring out what someone else has left you with and fault finding/testing.

I just don't find it productive for people to snark at adult learners trying to break into the industry. If there were proper opportunities for retraining these conversations wouldn't exist.

I know i'm not going to let any of it stop me and I will do as good if not a better job than any 19 year old freshly qualified man.

If you need to do work and inform the customer that they need to get building control to OK it, then do that, it's perfectly within the law and is part of government guidance that this is the procedure. There's no rule saying electricians have to do it, it's part of the homeowners responsibility. Just because some think it is the electrician's job doesn't mean that's correct, it's just the way they choose to handle that situation.

I know in my situation, if i need to do that to be able to 1. bring money in and 2. satisfy a portfolio that i'm building, then i'm going to do it. It's just a red tape issue, it's not like you're jumping on a massive industrial supply without knowing what you'e doing, just chancing it and doing a dangerous job. It's just simply cutting a corner on the bureaucracy.

The government say it's ok. The council say it's ok. If people think you're a cowboy for doing that just because they don't do it that way then so be it.

Good luck mate, hope you get to where you want to be.

You still haven't put forward a good argument for doing notifiable work for a customer and advising them that they can just ignore notification until they decide to sell the house, and then get someone in to notify it.

 

[Electrics]

You still haven't put forward a good argument for doing notifiable work for a customer and advising them that they can just ignore notification until they decide to sell the house, and then get someone in to notify it.

I would put an argument forward if i'd said that, but i didn't.

What i actually said was:

Technically it's not even your responsibility to notify, it's the homeowners, but they might get a shock if they come to sell and are asked for their paperwork only to find out their electrician didn't tell them they needed it.

It's not your job to notify building control. Most homeowners however won't know this, and will get a shock if they go to sell the house and find out they needed to do it and didn't, and will likely blame the electrician. This is me saying 'you should tell them they need it'.

In your situation i'd say look, i'm not part of a scheme because they're scams, but if you want to sell any time soon you'll have to get it signed off and it will cost X. I can sort it for you.

This is where i said you should tell them that they will need building control to be notified because if they don't they will have problems when they try to sell. 'I can sort it for you.' is where i'm telling the OP to tell them to pay the extra for the electrician to notify building control.

So you see, i've said he should notify them about building control and get them to pay for it either via you or off their own back, which you've all completely misconstrued as me somehow saying the exact opposite.?‍