Refurbishment. Help needed with spooky ancient meters.

[jaintiler]

Hello. We are doing a refurb for an elderly lady and her family. Its a Victorian house. the local network has said it will upgrade fuse to 80A or 100A depending on capacity etc. she needs more power due to electric showers, stair lift, and our electrician will upgrade tails. But there is a mystery.
She has two meters. both old analogue ones with the rotating discs. they look ancient. one does not move at all. the other has a rotating disc moving at same speed. regardless of what is turned on etc. and the dials are stuck also. the disc just moves at same speed. Our electrician says both meters are live.
she has been paying a direct debit for years and nobody has come to check meters for years.
she has had 5 certified electricians do work on the house over the last 15 years. rewiring, new consumer board, two kitchen companies with their electricians have all done work near the meter board. Nobody has mentioned anything. she also told us that the DNO sorted the cut out as it was leaking bitumen and came out and sorted that out for her a few years ago. any idea what is happening?
if the meter is faulty the supplier should come and exchange but they cant do anything for months and we do not want to leave her with upgraded tails from a meter which clearly isnt functioning. is it normal for these old meters to do this? can our electrician change the meter and then inform supplier?
any suggestions would be helpful.

 

[Spoon]

Welcome to the forum mate.
As far as I'm aware, only the DNO can replace the meter.
What have they said about the situation?

 

[jaintiler]

thanks for the reply. well the DNO came three years ago and sorted the cut out leak. Our electrician said he could change the meter and inform the supplier but according to you, the DNO can only do it. What is odd is that apparently these meters have been faulty for some time. do you know why there would be two meters? and also the disc on one rotating at the same speed regardless of consumption? is that normal. its a old Landis meter.

 

[James]

Can you post a picture of the arrangement? Showing both meters in same picture and fuse box if possible.

 

[pc1966]

As well as a good photo, can you time how long it takes for the disk to rotate once (or X times if going too fast to time easily)? It might give us an idea of what load the meter has (or thinks it has).

 

[davesparks]

Our electrician said he could change the meter and inform the supplier but according to you, the DNO can only do it.

In theory you do legally have the right to supply your own meter, but I'm not aware of anyone ever actually trying to go down this route.
I think you would find it turns out to be an absolute pain down the line.

 

[Vortigern]

This may have been an economy 7 arrangement the two meters being for the different tariffs. Sometimes these are overridden when the tariff changes. Looking at the electricity bill showing energy usage should give a lot more info i.e. tariff and whether the meter is actually working and which meter is in use as it should have the meter number. As to changing it, no you can't it is the property of the energy supplier whoever that is, refer to the bill for that info. It is not within the remit of any electrician or the DNO to tamper, change or otherwise interfere with the meters. Although it does happen i should not. Check the bills bottom line.

 

[jaintiler]

Hi. Thank you Well we timed it this morning and it takes 26 seconds for one full rotation. I will send across a photo of the set up.

 

[R-fur]

You also need the meter rev/kWh figure which should be on the front of the meter.

From memory current in A = 3600 (no of seconds in an hour) divided by voltage X rev/kWh X time in seconds for one rev.

There is usually a black mark on the edge of the disk which you use to time it. Modern meters have flashes/kWh and you time the period between the LED flashing.

I think thats right.

 

[snowhead]

One of the meters is most likely Off peak and if she has no use e.g Storage heaters or Off peak water then it can be removed by the Energy supplier.

Any competent electrican would be able to work out exactly what the setup is with the meters whether they are "Spooky and ancient" or not.

If the meter is faulty the Energy supplier should attend within days not months , if they say they can't, get the customer to contact OFGEM and complain.
If the supplier won't come out for months then they have no claim to loss of revenue from the faulty meter/s.

The Electrician will need the Energy supplier to cut the meter seals and reconnect the new tails.

 

[jaintiler]

thank you. the fuse box photo is from the DNO who did the fuse work 2 years ago when there was a leak. according the lady here, they promised to come out and sort the whole box but never came back. We are not sure if the fuse head is good enough as it is to take a 100A fuse?

 

[westward10]

Is that the service head!!
Is the cover missing?

 

[jaintiler]

hi. no there is a big iron cover door with the numbers 1888. that shuts over that and then there is another door to access that.

 

[pc1966]

I would call the DNO about that cut-out, it looks in terrible condition! Better still send them a photo!

Can't you post a better photo of the meters? To get the disk factor mentioned above from it.

 

[DefyG]

The old meters varied in terms of revolutions per kWh so dont think the number of revolutions at any one time will prove much.
It should however increase with loading so if at a constant speed regardless of load, can only think it is an internal fault that should be reported to the electricity supplier!

Clearly a 3 phase head which might account for the other single phase meter, although only one fuse carrier would indicate that if it is live it must be off the same phase so probably 'Off Peak' meter prior to a 'teleswitch' that has previously been removed!

 

[jaintiler]

amazing how much we learn on this forum in such a short time. never heard of a teleswitch before and neither had any of my team. even our electrician was confused! the lady here has no idea about it. Are we saying that an entire radio unit has been removed at some point? or is it some simple switch? There does not seem to be an large gaps anywhere.

 

[DefyG]

Judging by the age of the installation it may have been an old mechanical timer that was used to switch on and off the Off Peak supply, if it ever was an Off Peak supply but we don't really know from the info and photo's!
'Teleswitch' is a more recent version that can be switched remotely.

 

[freddo]

Wow that head is in poor condition and well overdue for replacement, leave the iron cover shut as it is covering very dangerous parts. If it is a 3 phase supply to the head, the screw terminals near the bottom will all be live.

 

[Mark Wright]

If she's happy with her current electrical bills I'd be wary about getting the meters upgraded.

 

[jaintiler]

Thanks. Well the DNO assured the lady they would sort out the cut out when they came to sort the leak but that was never followed up. That was two years ago so we will speak to them. our electrician said today that the last fuse carrier (on far right) in that cut out is actually live. No fuse in it. He said it is linked to a substation which is normal. We have no idea what that is but is it common to have a live fuse carrier like that?

 

[ipf]

If she's happy with her current electrical bills I'd be wary about getting the meters upgraded.

I agree. But I'd be a bit more worried about the state of that little lot, safety wise. DNO time.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

The cast-iron head is due for replacement. There is a significant risk of personal injury if anything goes wrong there, so it should not be disturbed by anyone not wearing arc-flash protective clothing (and it is also in theory an offence to interfere with the DNO's equipment unless authorised.) As your spark mentioned, the live terminals at the bottom are connected to the public supply, if they are shorted out it will be the entire street or neighbourhood that goes black and molten metal will be sprayed in the face of whoever does the shorting. It should all be enclosed and sealed, and these days preferably replaced with an all-plastic unit. Advise the DNO and they will probably be quite happy to upgrade.

The meters do not look very spooky to me, just ordinary meters. One is presumably redundant, the other ought to be metering the supply to the house but evidently isn't. There's nothing mystical, the speed of rotation should be exactly proportional to the load; two 2kW heaters should make it go twice as fast as one, and with the main switch off it should stop completely. If it does not, then either it is faulty in some peculiar way, or it is powering something you don't know about and registering the usage accordingly. In the first case, it is the Energy Supplier's problem to rectify, or they will send their appointed Meter Operator to do it. I have no idea of the liabilities involved if the estimated account is far adrift from the meter reading. If the meter is registering a legitimate load (such as a heater running in a shed that has been on for years) then it might get a bit more tricky as the customer will be relying on their clemency to cancel some or all of the bill. If they have been lax in checking the meter or requesting customer readings, there might be hope.

How large might the bill be? You say 26 seconds per revolution. A meter of that type might typically make 150 revs/kWh. Take the current price of electricity as 14p/kWh.
3600/(26 x 150)= 0.92kW
0.92 x 0.14 x 24 x 365 = £1128 per year (if 150 rev/kWh meter)
But, if the recording train is not turning and registering on the dials, then it might be zero. All a bit vague so you'll have to bite the bullet. Might be worth checking the reading as it stands, with the estimate on the bill, to get an idea of what to say.

And, for the record, this is an old and spooky electricity meter. Actually, not spooky either, just a very clever piece of engineering from about 120 years ago that is still working perfectly today.

 

[jaintiler]

thank you for your response and for the photo of what is a fascinating piece of engineering. thank you to all who replied to our post.

 

[freddo]

this is an old and spooky electricity meter.

Awesome! Is that a built in level hanging at the front, or some sort of tamper detection device? Reminds me of the tilt switches in pinball machines.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Yes it's a plumb bob, the meter is most accurate when correctly upright. I won't clutter this thread with more chat about the Aron meter. I'd point you at its page on my website but that is offline today for no obvious reason (it was working yesterday.)

 

[ipf]

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Brilliant. Can I have it for my sideboard.
I can see some thinking it's showing different time zones.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

I did have it running on the sideboard too. It's a bit obtrusive, two clocks ticking away, a clunk every 30 seconds as it winds the mainspring, and the suspense of waiting for the little click every 15 minutes that heralds the reversal of coil polarities and clock rates.

 

[jaintiler]

well today we had your machine in mind when we explained to the lady about the probable fault in the meter. she doesn't want to change the meter. (I think it is wise to keep the one she has) but one of our team today mentioned that the meter has two coils. is it possible that one coil is damaged which is causing the dials to not advance? She asked our electrician if the supplier would change the meter to an old Landis Gyr one. But what are the chances of that?

 

[davesparks]

The supplier will fit whatever type of meter they prefer, you don't get to choose which manufacturer or model of meter you get.
The are all approved to the same standard and class of accuracy which is legally required for use in billing.

 

[pc1966]

The cast-iron head is due for replacement. There is a significant risk of personal injury if anything goes wrong there, so it should not be disturbed by anyone not wearing arc-flash protective clothing (and it is also in theory an offence to interfere with the DNO's equipment unless authorised.)

For the benefit of the OP, here is an example of what can go wrong with professionals working on a live supply, and the benefits of proper arc-flash PPE that allow a sporting chance of escaping with little injury (but probably browned trousers):

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3yKFLJpnhI

 

[pc1966]

Remember it is dash-cam footage, so the audio is slightly in advance of the compressed video.