removal of main cutout fuse!

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Discuss removal of main cutout fuse! in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

either way would be anb improvement on the current situation. but it's like trying to get a dinosaur to use a computer.
 
Dillb said:
What and miss out on the potential of making money on fitting a isolator!!!
Click to expand...
its exactly my point earlier Dillb....come on guys....this `inbuilt` iso they were proposing for the smart meters was never going to happen was it.....and once the DNOs started to cast a bad smell over it n all......it doesn`t matter WHO pays for em to do their 5 mins of graft (even thats a joke)....it doesn`t matter who pays for it...the fact of it is someone has to....either way the DNO gets paid....what is a lot of money for the work done...now, if their fitting a 100A DP iso for that then all well n good.....but for just pulling a bullit...come on....
 
sparks1973 said:
its exactly my point earlier Dillb....come on guys....this `inbuilt` iso they were proposing for the smart meters was never going to happen was it.....and once the DNOs started to cast a bad smell over it n all......it doesn`t matter WHO pays for em to do their 5 mins of graft (even thats a joke)....it doesn`t matter who pays for it...the fact of it is someone has to....either way the DNO gets paid....what is a lot of money for the work done...now, if their fitting a 100A DP iso for that then all well n good.....but for just pulling a bullit...come on....
Click to expand...

To be fair, Eon do it all for free in my area (though not quickly). Shame that some suppliers seem bent on profit first and foremost....
 
Haven't got the BGB to hand (I'm working away left it at home)and I'm sure someone's mentioned it before but isn't there a reg which says all circuits/installations must have adequate means of isolation ( I do read the regs just can't quote them verse and number quite yet)

There is a proper procedure in place but everyone knows you can't afford to hang around all day for an Isolation/re energisation so what do most of us do, We turn the load off and remove the fuse illegally, surely this means that the DNO's are contravening the above reg and possibly the EAWR too indirectly by not installing a reasonable means of isolation.

Of course the person pulling the fuse is also breaking the rules too, but my point is the DNO's have a system in place which encourages individuals to remove fuses rather than doing it correctly and having the DNO blokes come out, so this implies that the system is not practicable , so surely the DNO have a legal liability somewhere in all of this, and they can't even feign ignorance as they know it goes on.

And yes I know they are guidelines but is it possible that the DNO would or have had to get their expensive Law departments out of the office and into court to defend their decisions regarding failure to fit an isolator in the event someone gets hurt or worse while illegally pulling a fuse

I'm sure the Coroner would have made a recommendation that Isolators are fitted after the event of a death, I know of at least one case of an electrician being killed in the last 10 years, and by making a recommendation in writing/on public record to an energy company then this would have some legal implications.

On my last assessment I commented to the Area Engineer at the beginning that they had become salesmen rather than promoting safe practice and Professional Electricians because for the first 1/2 hour he promoted the Niceic's services and products ,insurance and the like, and he went on to tell me I was wrong that they do promote their members to the public etc, funny really as I'm also a member of the public and I think I'd notice this, this led to a conversation about the idea to integrate an Isolation switch in the smart meters, in which they failed to convince the decision makers the ENA to do, ok bearing in mind the cost to the manufacturer of a new design and tooling etc I can see how they were stone walled ,the annoying thing is they concentrated on the smart meter isolator issue and should have said ok no isolator in the meter but there is nothing really stopping them from fitting a separate isolator, at the same time as the meter goes in, but apparently they never mentioned this, the Dno's couldn't really argue the expense factor as some already do so ,and still make a very nice profit.
 
edexlab said:
Haven't got the BGB to hand (I'm working away left it at home)and I'm sure someone's mentioned it before but isn't there a reg which says all circuits/installations must have adequate means of isolation ( I do read the regs just can't quote them verse and number quite yet)

There is a proper procedure in place but everyone knows you can't afford to hang around all day for an Isolation/re energisation so what do most of us do, We turn the load off and remove the fuse illegally, surely this means that the DNO's are contravening the above reg and possibly the EAWR too indirectly by not installing a reasonable means of isolation.

Of course the person pulling the fuse is also breaking the rules too, but my point is the DNO's have a system in place which encourages individuals to remove fuses rather than doing it correctly and having the DNO blokes come out, so this implies that the system is not practicable , so surely the DNO have a legal liability somewhere in all of this, and they can't even feign ignorance as they know it goes on.

And yes I know they are guidelines but is it possible that the DNO would or have had to get their expensive Law departments out of the office and into court to defend their decisions regarding failure to fit an isolator in the event someone gets hurt or worse while illegally pulling a fuse

I'm sure the Coroner would have made a recommendation that Isolators are fitted after the event of a death, I know of at least one case of an electrician being killed in the last 10 years, and by making a recommendation in writing/on public record to an energy company then this would have some legal implications.

On my last assessment I commented to the Area Engineer at the beginning that they had become salesmen rather than promoting safe practice and Professional Electricians because for the first 1/2 hour he promoted the Niceic's services and products ,insurance and the like, and he went on to tell me I was wrong that they do promote their members to the public etc, funny really as I'm also a member of the public and I think I'd notice this, this led to a conversation about the idea to integrate an Isolation switch in the smart meters, in which they failed to convince the decision makers the ENA to do, ok bearing in mind the cost to the manufacturer of a new design and tooling etc I can see how they were stone walled ,the annoying thing is they concentrated on the smart meter isolator issue and should have said ok no isolator in the meter but there is nothing really stopping them from fitting a separate isolator, at the same time as the meter goes in, but apparently they never mentioned this, the Dno's couldn't really argue the expense factor as some already do so ,and still make a very nice profit.
Click to expand...

This is really the point which I have been banging on about for ages...
We MUST work safely, yet there is no means provided by the suppliers for electricians to do so unless they -
a) Break the law and remove the fuse
b) Get the supplier out to remove and replace the fuse. This can be very costly and often takes several weeks.

I am currently in the process of writing to my MP about this, (I know it won't do any good, plus he is on holiday at the moment) but I feel we at least have to try.
When I was an apprentice back in the 80's this was a huge issue, and it still is. I realise that many people are happy to just do it (and fair do's to them), but I hate that we HAVE to break the law if we want to work safely without waiting weeks to do so, and I am disgusted that this ridiculous state of affairs is still going on in a Country which is supposed to pride itself on "doing things by-the-book"!!!
 
Guitarist said:
This is really the point which I have been banging on about for ages...
We MUST work safely, yet there is no means provided by the suppliers for electricians to do so unless they -
a) Break the law and remove the fuse
b) Get the supplier out to remove and replace the fuse. This can be very costly and often takes several weeks.

I am currently in the process of writing to my MP about this, (I know it won't do any good, plus he is on holiday at the moment) but I feel we at least have to try.
When I was an apprentice back in the 80's this was a huge issue, and it still is. I realise that many people are happy to just do it (and fair do's to them), but I hate that we HAVE to break the law if we want to work safely without waiting weeks to do so, and I am disgusted that this ridiculous state of affairs is still going on in a Country which is supposed to pride itself on "doing things by-the-book"!!!
Click to expand...

Well done !!

Maybe it won't do any good, but it has a better chance than the constant posts made about this subject on this board.

I'm on first name terms with my MP who I have written to & E-mailed about many concerns I have had over the years - the latest being the bunch of charlatans who are collectively known as ATOS - and he has almost always got himself involved. He hasn't always been able to achieve the desired result, but at least WE have tried !!

MPs work for us and are paid by us so we should be reminding them of these facts & kicking them where it hurts when the fail us.

At the end of the day, it's up to us to get what we deserve.
 
So they're going to catch you by detecting power loss to your smart meter?

Wonder how that will work by dropping the tails out of the customer side of the meter, those tails being your responsibility anyway :detective:
 
that won't cause a loss of power to the meter , though.
 
Keeping the meter live was the point if they're intending to run around fining people for trying to do their jobs safely. True you'll be pulling the live tail (to the cu) out of the meter, but with no load on it I don't see it any more dangerous than pulling the main fuse.

Still keeping my fingers crossed they'll be putting built in isolators onto smart meters like various people say they will and then we won't be having this issue.
 
i disagree fin170 how is it no more dangerous than pulling the fuse (waving a live tail around trimming it and then putting it into lucy blocks). Pull the fuse out with appropriate ppe, if the fuse carrier looks iffy, you would never touch it. The EAWR state you must never work live unless you have no option, there is a fuse there!! If the DNO were to prosecute an electrician for pulling a fuse, i would imagine every electricians on this forum would stand by and support them. The DNO i dont think would ever give there permission, as if someone were killed due to being incompetent then maybe they would be liable. I believe it is up the schemes to sort this out, correct training for it,s members, we are supposed to be competent at what we do. We pay our money to the likes of elecsa, niceic so let them know or we will still be having this discussion in ten years time. I live in Durham & have tried to follow correct procedure it didn't work, nobody actually knew what i was talking about. On the other hand if there is a fault the DNO have been there within half an hour. I have spoken to meter fitters & the DNO they dont seem to bothered about the fuse, they were more concerned with the meter seals. Which is why i dont go into the meter now & use lucy blocks. You must also reseal the fuse carrier, as a child could pull it out without the use of a tool & have access to live parts.
 
Last edited:
soulman said:
i disagree fin170 how is it no more dangerous than pulling the fuse (waving a live tail around trimming it and then putting it into lucy blocks).
Click to expand...

Maybe I'm just confusing myself here, but why would your tail be live after removing it from the meter? A lot of the time you've got to remove it anyway to upgrade to 25mm tails. I say no more dangerous as wrestling some of those fuses out from the top of a ladder isn't particularly safe either

I'm well aware it's not a good option and something I wouldn't want to do. But in the future I doubt the DNO and smart meter companies will work in unison so you can pull the fuse/get a iso installed without weeks of delays
 
Some of you must have come across old installations with half a dozen VIR’s feeding numerous little switch fuses. After the first time of doing the job by the book, (all VIR’s in to Henley blocks with new tails coming out). Waiting a month for the then electricity board to connect the tails, etc. I decided enough was enough.
Seals what are they?
This was 30+ years back.
 
JulianC said:
Anyone know specifically what law is being broken by pulling the fuse?
Click to expand...

NONE! There is no regulation or law in force in the UK today that forbids removing a fuse and replacing it when work has finished, and anyone on here that says pulling the fuse is illegal is talking out of their rear ends!

It is illegal to cause criminal damage to the DNOs equipment ie. the seals, but it is not illegal to pull an unsealed service fuse.

To make that clear, it is illegal to cut any seals.
It is not illegal to simply pull the fuse.


That said, if an electrician was to cut the seals, thus committing criminal damage, proving it was them would be very very hard!
 
Some of you must have come across old installations with half a dozen VIR’s feeding numerous little switch fuses. After the first time of doing the job by the book, (all VIR’s in to Henley blocks with new tails coming out). Waiting a month for the then electricity board to connect the tails, etc. I decided enough was enough.
Seals what are they?
This was 30+ years back.

funny little aquatic mammals that eat fish and in turn provide food for killer whales. OH, and sport for canadian clubbers.
 
n noun a member of an elite force within the US Navy, specializing in guerrilla warfare and counter-insurgency.

ORIGIN
1960s: abbreviation of 'sea, air, land (team)'.

seal1
n noun
1 a device or substance used to join two things together or render something impervious. Øthe state or fact of being joined or rendered impervious with a seal.
2 a piece of wax, lead, etc. with an individual design stamped into it, attached to a document as a guarantee of authenticity. Øa design embossed in paper for this purpose. Øan engraved device used for stamping a seal. Øa decorative adhesive stamp.
3 a confirmation or guarantee: a seal of approval.
4 (the seal or the seal of the confessional) the obligation on a priest not to divulge anything said during confession.
5 the water standing in the trap of a drain to prevent foul air from rising.
n verb
1 fasten or close securely. Ø(seal something off) isolate an area by preventing or monitoring access to and from it.
2 apply a non-porous coating to (a surface) to make it impervious.
3 conclude, establish, or secure definitively: victory was sealed.
4 authenticate (a document) with a seal.

PHRASES
my lips are sealed I will not discuss or reveal a secret.
put (or set) the seal on finally confirm or conclude.
set (or put) one's seal to (or on) mark with one's distinctive character.

DERIVATIVES
sealable adjective

ORIGIN
Middle English: from Old French seel (noun), seeler (verb), from Latin sigillum 'small picture', diminutive of signum 'a sign'.

seal2
n noun a fish-eating aquatic mammal with a streamlined body and feet developed as flippers. [Families Phocidae (the true seals) and Otariidae (eared seals): many species.]
n verb [usually as noun sealing] hunt for seals.

ORIGIN
Old English seolh, of Germanic origin.
 
Fin170 said:
Keeping the meter live was the point if they're intending to run around fining people for trying to do their jobs safely. True you'll be pulling the live tail (to the cu) out of the meter, but with no load on it I don't see it any more dangerous than pulling the main fuse.

Still keeping my fingers crossed they'll be putting built in isolators onto smart meters like various people say they will and then we won't be having this issue.
Click to expand...
how many more times...THEY WONT!!....the DNOs stand to lose monay.....and thats how it is....
 
Could the moderators or someone more computer literate organise a petition online? is this possible.

I've heard before that if there are enough names on it, then the Government have to look into the matter and there are quite a few members on this forum and there are also other Electrical forums who could support it most of whom would sign up there's supposed to be around 40,000 or more Electricians in this country, ie people on the forums could spread the word to others and so on
then present the same petition to The ENA,HSE, Mp's and the schemes we all pay for.

This same discussion is repeated over and over to no end by the trade we're the only ones who have a problem with it and as the companies who own the grid don't listen and technically don't have to, it goes nowhere, its a bit like a birds nest the ones at the front making a lot of noise get fed the quieter ones are ignored.

Everyone is in agreement about the safety issues hence the DNO refusing permission to remove seals etc, and its amazing that a separate isolator is still not fitted, the schemes would have something to say about it if we installed with no isolation at the origin of an installation so the same rules surely must apply to the energy companies based on EAWR, BS7671, HSE, ESQCR etc

I don't think its an unreasonable request to want an item fitted that will make things safer and more convenient, as this would decrease the risk of an install being left in an unsafe condition which is the very point that the DNO's are concerned about, the people who are stealing electricity will always find a way to do so and is where the DNO's should be looking as these bodge jobs are usually left in a dangerous state.

Its funny that an industry can ignore safety in this day and age when they want to , ok they can say you shouldn't be touching it, but people will also climb pylons yet everyone knows its dangerous, so the DNO's all put razor wire around the legs to prevent this how is this that different to this issue.
I remember a HSE doc I read and something similar in the regs which sounds something like the following :where there is a possibility of danger to life or property then the cost factor does not come into it within practical reason and this is most would argue is a reasonable request.
 
The Electrical Safety Council have stated their disappointment that the government has agreed with the Assosiation of Meter Operators
that the cost of fitting an intergral isolation switch on smart meters would cause a delay on the roll out and would have cost implications pluse there is no material evidence to do this on the grounds of safety

Switched On Issue 25 summer 2012 reference

Also ESC welcomes a Select Committe Report on Part P in the same issue to read click on below and select Summer 2012

http://www.esc.org.uk/stakeholder/news-and-campaigns/switched-on/
 
Question..as a consumer does the DNO provide me with a means to isolate an electrical source that they supply to me in the event that my equipment AKA the CU bursts in to flames ? yes they do a fkn big fuse lol, so my defence is.." I saw smoke coming from my CU, and in the absence of an isolating device to disconnect your equipment from mine I had no choice but to remove your cut out fuse"

J
 
Jimmy Boy said:
Question..as a consumer does the DNO provide me with a means to isolate an electrical source that they supply to me in the event that my equipment AKA the CU bursts in to flames ? yes they do a fkn big fuse lol, so my defence is.." I saw smoke coming from my CU, and in the absence of an isolating device to disconnect your equipment from mine I had no choice but to remove your cut out fuse"

J
Click to expand...
Exactly right, we were taught to quote the "Electricity supply act 1921", personally, I remove seals by cutting one wire, do the work, replace the cutout and reseal with the original seal and a quick twist, I have never been challenged in 40 years!, never removed the fuse and replaced the carrier for safety, but I agree with the above poster that a stray cpc going into the unprotected cutout could be.....................................interesting.
 
Interesting..Just finished a couple of little ones where I have fitted Wylex isolators before I did the board change seals were *cough* already..gone
TN-S
PFC 2.6kA
Ze 0.09 ohms

Thats a lot of copper in your face !

Considering I think the 1361 has a SCC of 16.5 kA

J
 
Reply from my distributor:

'In terms of jurisdiction, SSEPD as distributor is responsible for the incoming service and cutout, including the company fuse.

The incoming tails,or rather the tails from the cutout to the meter are the Meter Operator's repsonsibility. I do not work for the MOP, but I would assume that any remedial work on these tails would be organised with the MOP by the supplier at the property.

The outgoing tails from the meter to the consumer unit are the responsibility of the customer and can be worked upon by any qualified electrician.

If the meter seals are cut, or the company fuse is pulled, we would add a site note against the property on a system called CS, listing the electricians name, mobile number,company name and trade association number. Any NICEIC, ECA, NAPIT, ELECSA orSELECT registered engineer is allowed to pull the company fuse or break company seals.

Temporary seals, used to tag works carried out, can be obtained from the closest regional SSEPD depot.

I hope the above information is of some use'.
 
Democracy sounds good but it looks like the Assosiation of Meter Operators have a strong lobby plus in this current economical climate politician will not vote for more costs to business no matter how cheap it is as macro economics take place so if you change 100,000 meters a year that a £1.2 million cost on you even although it will cost more to send someone out to put an isolator in the long run it makes common sense but because of deregulation there is big demarcation lines ie meter guys will only touch the meter and the head guys
will not work on the consumer side
 
Im sure there is a note with regard to pulling dno fuses in the BGB along the lines of ringing them telling them your pulling it and they need to re seal it , ( the phrase competent person is also in there) so assuming if your Nic elecsa etc pull away ???
 
huntos33 said:
Im sure there is a note with regard to pulling dno fuses in the BGB along the lines of ringing them telling them your pulling it and they need to re seal it , ( the phrase competent person is also in there) so assuming if your Nic elecsa etc pull away ???
Click to expand...

See my post no. 80.
 
I've set up a petition on the government e-petitions website.

It's got to be approved but as soon as i get the confirmation email I'll post up a link on here.

Wonder if the mods could promote it like the "Fatally Flawed" campaign...
 
Its an idiotic system
it should be compulsary for the suppliers to upgrade there equipment and provide a adequate means of isolation to allow improvements to be made such as fitting the CCU without breaking any laws or seals
Or allow the seals to be cut and new tails installed as long as the supplier is notified and temporary seals fitted upon completion as well as having to fit a DP isolator if the equipment looks safe to do so
 
brucelee said:
Its an idiotic system
it should be compulsary for the suppliers to upgrade there equipment and provide a adequate means of isolation to allow improvements to be made such as fitting the CCU without breaking any laws or seals
Or allow the seals to be cut and new tails installed as long as the supplier is notified and temporary seals fitted upon completion as well as having to fit a DP isolator if the equipment looks safe to do so
Click to expand...

I think we would all be in agreement mate. Just been reading an article in the last ECA magazine saying how they have been lobbying parliament to get something sorted, and that the Government is on-board with finding a solution. I think the key is for us all to write to our MP, as this is a matter of safety.
 
UPDATE...

Contacted e-petitions website yesterday to ask why my petition hadn't been finalised.

They said that as it was quite complex it might involve more than one government department so they were taking time to check it properly and make sure everything was ok.

I'll keep everyone updated and hopefully post up the link on here in the next few days...
 
We would not need this if the Electrical Safety Council had got the government to either get the DNOsto fit an isolation switch or get one fitted in the new smart meters but nope the government were lobbied by the meter and DNO companies stating there was no need to put this extra cost or burden on to business as it was no a safety issue reference Switched On issue 25.

I have signed this but I feel big business has more of a say plus I returned to a job this morning to fix a socket and I had fitted an isolator when I changed the CU now there was 16mm singles coming from the meter but since then the meter and mains were renewed and they fitted an isolator now you are asking what 2 isolators YEP and worse than that they kept the 16mm singles as this was on the consumer side in.

The customer did ask saying the electrician had left enough DI cable going to the CU but no.So this morning it took me 10 minutes to put the DI cable straight into their isolator thus removing the one I fitted and the single 16mm.

Sorry no pics left camera in the house
 
oldtimer said:
We would not need this if the Electrical Safety Council had got the government to either get the DNOsto fit an isolation switch or get one fitted in the new smart meters but nope the government were lobbied by the meter and DNO companies stating there was no need to put this extra cost or burden on to business as it was no a safety issue reference Switched On issue 25.

I have signed this but I feel big business has more of a say plus I returned to a job this morning to fix a socket and I had fitted an isolator when I changed the CU now there was 16mm singles coming from the meter but since then the meter and mains were renewed and they fitted an isolator now you are asking what 2 isolators YEP and worse than that they kept the 16mm singles as this was on the consumer side in.

The customer did ask saying the electrician had left enough DI cable going to the CU but no.So this morning it took me 10 minutes to put the DI cable straight into their isolator thus removing the one I fitted and the single 16mm.

Sorry no pics left camera in the house
Click to expand...

Just shows the average intelligence of these guys....
 
interesting point, when the old sangamo weston mechanical meter was removed at my house, it was replaced by a new digital meter WITH A BUILT IN ISOLATOR!, when it went faulty a couple of years later it was replaced by another digi meter, without an isolator, when I asked the guy, he just said, "we're not fitting those any more". It was the same make, just minus isolator. When the original digi meter was fitted, I asked the DNO man what the difference in price was, he laughed and told me the old black mechanical meters were about £70 each, whereas the new ones cost..........................."about £11"! So the "cost to much" excuse is a bit invalid then?
 
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