Still worthwhile?

[dchester]

What is the opinion here on viability of Solar PV? Is it still worth buying this from and end user point of view? Obviously installers want to keep selling and pushing it but with greatly reduced subsidies is it worth putting them on your own house?

My own point of view is that it is a lot of money to shell out for somewhere you may not be in 6 to 10 years time. Although with the right installation it would be very satisfying not to have to pay the leeches for my electricity!

Power companies have been ripping us off for years, putting shareholders profits before customer welfare. I dn't see this changing in the near future. The greedy energy companies have the gall to blame their ever increasing prices on increased charges from their suppliers - excluding energy generation. This is almost certainly a direct result of the increased burden of energy supply and fuel price rises on those very same suppliers.

They are creating a vicious circle for their own ends. I dno't see the government doing much about it despite blathering about it being a problem. The more money these companies make, the more is raised in tax and VAT.

Would be interested in hearing the views of others here, especially those installing Solar PV.

Thanks

 

[Eco Deal]

I am an installer , I have two systems a 1.4 kwp at the 43.3p and a 4 kwp at the 16p rate.

now the 4 kwp to me is more about saving on electricity I just got my bill and I am £40 in credit. I know every day that my basic things like tv , laptop , fridge , freezer x 2 are run free all year round. the if we have a good day things like my washer dryer and hot water are free.

PV is still worth it the problem we have is that the 43.3p rate was too good and when you mention 16p they always look at the old 43.3p rate even if the price is 70% cheaper than at that rate , I think I paid over 5k just for the kit for my 1.4kwp and installed my 4 kwp cheaper than 5k

 

[Vegelen]

Q/ Is it better to be self sufficient or dependent?

Q/ Do you trust UK energy companies to supply you with a reliable future energy source at a competitive price?

Solar PV is a tried and tested technology.

It can generate a significant amount of your homes energy requirements- if the intended

location of installation of the solar pv system is in a suitable location that gets lots of light

throughout the year.

South facing roofs at an angle of 30 degrees are optimum with zero shading.

Shading effects the ability of solar panels to generate electricity.

Solar systems tend to generate ok in the months from March to September.

In winter solar pv systems dont generate as well as UK sunlight hours reduce.

UK FIT rates have reduced to far less profitable levels than 2011.

I now think of UK FIT rates as a way to pay for the Solar PV hardware installed on your

property, in a certain timeframe.

Crude Simplistic Calculations On A 3KW Solar System:

In a reasonable location a 3KW can generate 2,600KW per year.

If FITS were 15-16p you'd make approx £400 per annum in generated income.

You'd also make £50+ on half your generated energy via export income payments.

How much would you save on your consumed household electricity?

Lets assume you would use 1/3 of your generated electricity. i.e 866KW @ 14p = £121

reduced electricity bills per year.

450 + 121 = £ 571 per year.

You'd probably make your initial outlay back in 9 years.

The calculation to more accurately evaluate the actual payback time on a solar system is

more involved than I care to do here, it involves UK Inflationary affects (annual FIT rate

payments are index linked), annuallised energy price inflation etc

How much would the same money make if invested in a UK bank over the same period of time?

You have to think through the solar proposition for your own situation, in detail.

Right now the media and the government have killed peoples perception of solar.

Solar still remains a good long term investment and a great way to mitigate those rising

energy bills.

Solar power will return into vogue if energy bills keep increasing.

Right now Solar PV inverters are selling at sub wholesale cost prices.

If solar pv panels continue declining in price, it's going to be a very good opportunity

to install solar.

 

[FB.]

What is the opinion here on viability of Solar PV? Is it still worth buying this from and end user point of view? Obviously installers want to keep selling and pushing it but with greatly reduced subsidies is it worth putting them on your own house?

My own point of view is that it is a lot of money to shell out for somewhere you may not be in 6 to 10 years time. Although with the right installation it would be very satisfying not to have to pay the leeches for my electricity!

Power companies have been ripping us off for years, putting shareholders profits before customer welfare. I dn't see this changing in the near future. The greedy energy companies have the gall to blame their ever increasing prices on increased charges from their suppliers - excluding energy generation. This is almost certainly a direct result of the increased burden of energy supply and fuel price rises on those very same suppliers.

They are creating a vicious circle for their own ends. I dno't see the government doing much about it despite blathering about it being a problem. The more money these companies make, the more is raised in tax and VAT.

Would be interested in hearing the views of others here, especially those installing Solar PV.

Thanks

Solar can still be worthwhile for many and is worth exploring, but I take exception to your comments.
If utility companies are so profitable, why don't you go borrow some money, invest it in utilities and sit back until you become a millionnaire. You'll have a long wait. It isn't as rosy as everyone thinks.

Utility companies only have a profit margin of several percent. That's quite a low margin. I am also certain that if utilities were nationalised, the complete loss of any kind of competition would cause them to become lazy, bureacratic and lacking innovation - driving up costs for consumers. At best, their margin of about 6% would be the maximum reduction in prices that consumers could see. However, as I said: government-owned utilities would suffer bloated bureacracy (I used to work for the NHS and the number of middle managers doing pointless or duplicated desk jobs was often more than the workers on the ground) and lack of competition would leave no incentive for companies to innovate new and better ways to operate.

Also you speak of shareholders. They get paid around 5% to 6% annual dividend. That's all - unless random market price moves also cause the shares to go up (or down). The annual dividend payout is barely adequate for the risks involved. I've recently been reducing my utility shareholdings because I think the returns are poor - I'd much rather invest in other companies with bigger margins and less political interference (who nobody seems to notice because all eyes are on utility companies which allows other companies to make extortionate 20% or more margins - companies such as Apple, for example, make vast profit margins and people just keep buying!).

So if utility companies must work on a not-for-profit basis, I'd like to see solar installation also done on a not-for-profit because, after all, it's people's only defence from higher bills - just to ensure that hard-pressed consumers get the lowest, most competitive solar prices possible (because there have been a lot of solar rip-off's and overpriced installations in the last year or two). It's only fair that everyone works on a not-for profit basis, no?
Ah, but most people's definition of fair is if it affects someone else and not them. Selfish.

You also mention tax. "...The more money these companies make, the more is raised in tax and VAT...."
What do you think the government does with tax? Tax provide healthcare, policing, benefits, pensions and everything else that people consider to be their right. The previos government borrowed us to the eyeballs in order to give a short-term boost which the next generation will have to pay for - plus interest - from taxes.

 

[balbecdaze]

It's still a good investment, albeit you're investing less and generating less profit in real terms than when prices and the FiT were higher (as Vegelen shows).

It's also arguably more important as policies on climate change seem to have dropped off the political radar of US and European countries (don't know about the rest of the world). We simply have to reduce the amount of CO2​ we release into the atmosphere both personally (solar panels, electric cars and trains, solar thermal etc) and as a society.

 

[dchester]

Well for a start nobody in their right mind would "invest" that much money in a UK bank account unless they were crazy

We are in the SE of England and use about 30kWh of electricity a year. There's about 2kW constant "background" usage plus whatever else is used by the wife's apparently constant need of the washing machine, tumble drier and dishwasher!

So I think that we would need a 5kW installation which is >4kW limit which is a pain, however, we do have another property on the site which has its own supply so we could, say, fit 4kW to our place and 2kW perhaps to the additional property.

The problem is that the initial outlay makes this quite prohibitive and unless the panel costs reduce dramatically I don't see that being worthwhile. Sure this has started to happen as demand increased but with the FIT now being so small it's likely going to level off again.

 

[zeljuga]

Check your figures. 30 kwh is more likely one or two day consumption.

 

[FB.]

generating less profit in real terms than when prices and the FiT were higher

The previous overly-generous Feed-in-Tariff was being subsidised by higher prices levied/passed-on to those same hard-pressed bill payers. Solar is arguably making things worse, before they, one day, may get better.

The FiT, at 40-odd-pence per kWh, was insanely over-generous and no wonder the rent-a-roof boom happened as it was a "no brainer" and the main objective (bill savings) was only a tiny proportion of the payback, which was just plain greedy. Rates of return well into the teens percent are higher than any other "investment" available - especially considering the risks.
Now it has swung in the other direction and the FiT is a little on the low side.

 

[dchester]

Solar can still be worthwhile for many and is worth exploring, but I take exception to your comments.
If utility companies are so profitable, why don't you go borrow some money, invest it in utilities and sit back until you become a millionnaire. You'll have a long wait. It isn't as rosy as everyone thinks.

What a friendly chap.

I'm not suggesting that utility companies should be re-nationalised. That would likely be a disaster ending with the usual government bloat and another method of taxing us, but there appears to be a price fixing cartel operating here and customers are being ripped off. There is no competition or we would see energy companies trying to reduce costs and prices in order to capture more customers. Instead of this we see across the board price hikes far greater than inflation and convoluted, confusing price plans. That's not OK with me when this is an essential utility. There is clearly no proper regulation on the side of the consumer.

 

[dchester]

Check your figures. 30 kwh is more likely one or two day consumption.

I meant 30K kWh thanks

David

 

[dchester]

The FiT, at 40-odd-pence per kWh, was insanely over-generous and no wonder the rent-a-roof boom happened as it was a "no brainer" and the main objective (bill savings) was only a tiny proportion of the payback, which was just plain greedy. Rates of return well into the teens percent are higher than any other "investment" available - especially considering the risks. Now it has swung in the other direction and the FiT is a little on the low side.

Yes I think at 25p it was still a no-brainer really and I wish that I had done it back then really but install prices were still very high.

What is the sell-back rate like now on generated power fed back into the grid?

Thanks

David

 

[FB.]

What a friendly chap.

I'm not suggesting that utility companies should be re-nationalised. That would likely be a disaster ending with the usual government bloat and another method of taxing us, but there appears to be a price fixing cartel operating here and customers are being ripped off. There is no competition or we would see energy companies trying to reduce costs and prices in order to capture more customers. Instead of this we see across the board price hikes far greater than inflation and convoluted, confusing price plans. That's not OK with me when this is an essential utility. There is clearly no proper regulation on the side of the consumer.

Friendly? I just get fed-up of the one-sided "anti-business" mentality of the British public - many of whom have come to expect something for nothing at someone else's expense.

If it's so profitable, why isn't everyone rushing into building power stations and laying power and gas cables?
Why have big investors been pouring money into bill-payer-subsidised rent-a-roof, rather than going to the apparently lush green grass available in the generation and supply markets?
The reason, is that it's far from easy to generate and supply power at a decent profit margin; it's much easier to look for a government subsidy or handout in order to make a good profit.

 

[FB.]

In summary: unless businesses are able to make a fair profit margin, and aren't tied-up with red tape, then eventually there will be very few businesses left in Britain.

Perhaps you'd like to see even more tight regulation, with the result that more of our utility companies see their share prices slide to the point where Chinese, Canadian or French businesses pick up our companies for pennies in the Pound? United Utilities and Severn Trent had to cut their dividend payout to shareholders by 11% a few yeara ago after OFWAT come down hard on them. The dividends have yet to recover and now both are subject to buyout speculation from Canadian pension funds. We've already lost, to overseas owners: Thames Water, Northumbrian Water, Scottish Power to name just a few.

Businesses (and people) with money to invest are needed to provide jobs for the majority.

At least while the utility companies remain substantially listed on the London Stock Exchange, the dividends they pay may end up being spent within the UK, rather than being paid to overseas owners who gradually own more and more of the UK's infrasturture and gradually turn the UK into a bunch of peasants with no money and no posessions.

 

[dchester]

Well they don't want to plough huge amounts of cash into building new power stations. What we need, and some won't like this, is nuclear power and solar energy farms but the tree-huggers won't like that. (Appologies to any tree-huggers present!)

I think it's the only way forward though but nobody is interested in investing in the future when they can carry on milking the heck out of their cash cow. Instead of reducing prices to increase income by gaining more customers they try to find ways of telling us how we can reduce our usage! And don't forget, most of these companies do not generate electricity or bring up their own gas - they are just selling on paper someone else's.

I'm certainly not anti-business BTW. I have run my own business for 25 years. I am, however, anti ripping people off during the worst recession in living memory.

David

 

[FB.]

Well they don't want to plough huge amounts of cash into building new power stations. What we need, and some won't like this, is nuclear power and solar energy farms but the tree-huggers won't like that. (Appologies to any tree-huggers present!)

I think it's the only way forward though but nobody is interested in investing in the future when they can carry on milking the heck out of their cash cow. Instead of reducing prices to increase income by gaining more customers they try to find ways of telling us how we can reduce our usage! And don't forget, most of these companies do not generate electricity or bring up their own gas - they are just selling on paper someone else's.

I'm certainly not anti-business BTW. I have run my own business for 25 years. I am, however, anti ripping people off during the worst recession in living memory.

David

Having read most of the company's annual reports: they are eager to pour tens of billions into new power plants (including nuclear - but I believe that now every possible bidder has withdrawn, citing government lack of clarity).
The companies fear that changes in the government or regulatory mood (e.g. from one power source to another every couple of years) will mean that the companies end up having wasted billions on a multi-year construction project to build power stations using one type of "fuel" which has to compete unfavourably against another type of power generation which has a big subsidy.

Back in 2010, as an investor in National Grid, I coughed-up thousands of pounds (yes, National Grid made a cash-call from their shareholders) in order to invest £20-25billion in the UK's ageing infrastructure and to make new connections for renewables such as offshore wind.

 

[dchester]

In summary: unless businesses are able to make a fair profit margin, and aren't tied-up with red tape, then eventually there will be very few businesses left in Britain.

Wow I have stepped on a hornets nest! I like to make a fair profit margin myself but we are talking essential utilities here who are pandering to the shareholders and NOT their customers. Private business delivers the best service they can to their customers or they will not last 5 minutes. Utility companies don't have to do this. They can run rough-shod over all of us and I am staggered that some people in here appear to like that!

Perhaps you'd like to see even more tight regulation, with the result that more of our utility companies see their share prices slide to the point where Chinese, Canadian or French businesses pick up our companies for pennies in the Pound? United Utilities and Severn Trent had to cut their dividend payout to shareholders by 11% a few yeara ago after OFWAT come down hard on them. The dividends have yet to recover and now both are subject to buyout speculation from Canadian pension funds. We've already lost, to overseas owners: Thames Water, Northumbrian Water, Scottish Power to name just a few.
Businesses (and people) with money to invest are needed to provide jobs for the majority.

This has turned into a lively debate and I can't help thinking that half of the people here are employed by the utility companies!

This is the problem caused by successive governments. In my opinion, foreign busnesses should not be allowed to buy our utility companies or any part of the infrastructure of the UK.

 

[FB.]

-
Here is an extract from Centrica's half-year results announcement, from June 2012:

INVESTING FOR GROWTH

• Total investment of £1.5 billion in the first six months of 2012
• Further progress in gas development projects, to bring 140mmboe of reserves into production
• Moving ahead with £1.4 billion Cygnus development; largest gas discovery in the Southern North Sea for 25 years, supporting 4,000 new jobs
• First power from £1 billion Lincs wind farm in the coming weeks, able to supply around 200,000 homes
• Awarded planning consent for 580MW Race Bank wind farm; progressing towards a final investment decision in the first quarter of 2013

Here's an extract from SSE's (Scot & Sthn Electric) from July 2012:

· Networks: SSE's subsidiary Scottish Hydro Electric Transmission Ltd (SHETL) has undertaken capital works totalling £80m, including completing the new £25m 275kV substation at Beauly, and remains on course to achieve a Regulated Asset Value of over £1bn for the first time later this year;
· Wholesale: SSE's onshore wind farm capacity in operation has increased by 50MW to 1,353MW as a result of progress at the Clyde wind farm development;
· Wholesale: SSE's commissioned offshore wind farm capacity (net) has increased by 69MW to 256MW as a result of the completion of Walney and ongoing construction progress at Greater Gabbard, where 137 of the 140 turbines have now generated electricity; and
· Wholesale: The seventh of the nine caverns at the new Aldbrough gas storage facility being developed by SSE and Statoil UK Ltd have been brought into commercial operation in June and dewatering of the eighth was also completed in June, keeping the development on track to achieve full operation later this summer. Meanwhile, the facility continues to operate with high availability to meet commercial requirements.

In addition, the reservoir at the 100MW Glendoe hydro electric scheme is now being filled, in advance of electricity generation which is expected to resume shortly.

Other developments
Since the publication of its full-year results on 16 May 2012, SSE has also entered into an agreement with Endesa Generacion SA to acquire electricity generation assets in Ireland which are in operation (1,068MW), under construction (460MW) or in development for a total cash consideration of €320m (£256m) plus an estimated €43m (£34m) for working capital and €125m (£100m) to complete the construction of the Great Island CCGT.

 

[FB.]

I like to make a fair profit margin myself but we are talking essential utilities here

But where do we draw the line for "essential", without risking state-owned-everything and communism as a result?

Cars are essential.
Petrol is essential.
Food is essential.
Postal services are essential.
Telecoms services are essential.
Clothing is essential.
Household items - "white goods" are essential.

A case can be made that almost everything is essential.

Unilever (household cleaning chemicals and food producer) reported a 13% margin recently.
BT reported 13% margin.
Diageo (Guinness and alcohol) reported a 21% margin.
British American Tobacco reported a 32% margin.
Barclays reported 18% margin.
Shell reported a 12% margin.
Marks & Spencer reported a 7% margin.
"struggling" Tesco reported 6% margin (same margin as Centrica / British Gas)

Why would I (or anyone else) want to invest in low-margin businesses such as utilities, at the top of consumer's hit-lists, when many other companies - especailly smokes and booze - absolutely rake it in and rob people blind without them realising it?

 

[dchester]

Did you notice that everything you said related to shareholders and none of it to consumers?

 

[FB.]

Did you notice that everything you said related to shareholders and none of it to consumers?

Yes, because there has been too much emphasis on consumers and not enough on encouraging businesses to invest and create jobs.
The economy will not get out of its slump unless businesses can be encouraged to invest, and they will not invest unless the profit margins are satisfactory.

How many construction workers would be given jobs, if the utility companies suddenly were able to find profitable investment options for new power stations? How much extra would that inject into the ailing UK construction industry - and filter down as wages to ordinary people? Or should we continue to lack investment and buy all our power from the Continent, with money flowing overseas instead of the UK?


I presume, then, that you'd like everything to be owned by the state - including your business. After all: almost everything is "essential" and therefore why should one industry or sector be any different to other industries or sectors (especially if margins are already very low)?

As things stand, you can see where investors and businesses will put their money - smokes, booze and anything with a government subsidy. Not many will be interested in low-margin utilities and investment in utility infrastructure may be starved as a result.

 

[FB.]

And put things into perspective:

What proportion of people's money goes on:

Gas & electricity
Telecommunications
Food
Clothing
Council tax
Petrol
smokes
Booze

?

So much anger directed at gas/electric companies, when people spend more on food, or spend as much on petrol, or as much on communications/telecoms, or as much on smokes, booze or holidays.

The amount of anger directed at one minority portion of monthly outgoings is disproportional to its significance. While everyone continues to have all eyes on just one obsession, they will continue to be robbed by all the other industries which provide "essential" services.

 

[Vegelen]

There appears to be a price fixing cartel operating here and customers are being ripped off.
There is no competition or we would see energy companies trying to reduce costs and prices in order to capture more customers.
Instead of this we see across the board price hikes far greater than inflation and convoluted, confusing price plans.
That's not OK with me when this is an essential utility.
There is clearly no proper regulation on the side of the consumer.

Well said.

If anyone attempts to say energy companies make money and are profitable, the old chestnuts are brought out.

"Low Profit margins of 5%, little return on shareholder capital, high risk, yada, yada, yada".

The energy business generates lots of money, problem is too many benefactors (shareholders) exist drawing off these returns".

If the energy business didn't make money national governments wouldn't show such an avid interest in it.

Lots of money is wasted in this business IMHO.

Centrica generates vast profits generating electricity from gas.

 

[Vegelen]

Why would I (or anyone else) want to invest in low-margin businesses such as utilities, at the top of consumer's hit-lists, when many other companies - especailly smokes and booze - absolutely rake it in and rob people blind without them realising it?

So why do you then?

Operate in the free market, sell your over priced shares, stop defending energy

companies and go invest in all these better alternative economic investments.

You sound more emotional about Utility companies than a standard investor.

You have made a water tight argument, why it is not sensible to invest in energy

companies for the foreseeable future.

 

[Vegelen]

Yes, because there has been too much emphasis on consumers and not enough on encouraging businesses to invest and create jobs.
The economy will not get out of its slump unless businesses can be encouraged to invest, and they will not invest unless the profit margins are satisfactory.

If 0.5% Bank Of England base rate isn't the correct environment for businesses to borrow

and invest money, i'll go shoot myself.

I'd agree that the government could do more to help encourage businesses to invest in the

UK, but to say there has been too much emphasis on consumers in the UK is absolute

rubbish.

 

[FB.]

So why do you then?

Operate in the free market, sell your over priced shares, stop defending energy companies and go invest in all these

better alternative economic investments.

You sound more attatched to the Utility companies than you claim.

You have made a water tight argument, why it is not sensible to invest in energy

companies for the foreseeable future.

I sypathise with utility companies and what I see as over-harsh regulation. I do own some shares in them but they are among my smaller holdings. Remember that I have to pay bills too, but I have a greater sense of economic balance and a fair profit for all businesses. But strip the utilities of all their profits and you'll only see bills drop by 6% - and you'll then see even less investment than there is now. Would a 6% drop in gas/electric bills - several quid a month - save the UK's poor?

Well-known companies among my largest holdings are Vodafone (21% margin) and AstraZeneca (37% margin), although I hold certain shares for reasons other than purely the profit margin. For example a big holding in Sainsbury (bought below £3 in late-2011 and early-2012) because the shares have been so cheap that they trade for less than the value of the buildings, so are begging to be snapped-up by a predator wanting to break the company up and flog-off the bits - of which the Qatari Delta-Two fund (who already have acquired one-quarter of Sainsbury's shares) is rumoured to be in talks to buy the Sainsbury family's holdings in preparation for a £5-a-share buyout (current price around £3.50).

 

[FB.]

If 0.5% Bank Of England base rate isn't the correct environment for businesses to borrow

and invest money, i'll go shoot myself.

I'd agree that the government could do more to help encourage businesses to invest in the

UK, but to say there has been too much emphasis on consumers in the UK is absolute

rubbish.

Why invest when there is such regulatory and political risk? Or the risk of consumers demanding unrealistically low prices?
Like I said: prices can't go more than several percent lower - a fiver a month on an average bill.

If you want to spend your life arguing over a maximum saving of a fiver a month through "not-for-profit" gas/electric, then fine. But I'd spend my time wondering about other, easier ways to make ends meet.
One less packet of smokes a month, or two less beers, or one less shot at the lottery each week.

 

[Vegelen]

I accept some of the points made.
What irks me is that consumers keep paying, more and more and more in a virtuos circle, on a commodity that isn't particularly special, which no one supposedly profits from?
It reminds me of "See no evil, hear no evil".
Prices rise, everyone pays more and we are led to believe no one benefits.....

 

[FB.]

Prices rise, everyone pays more and we are led to believe no one benefits.....

Known as Quantitative Easing nowadays; it used to be called "Devaluation".

The more money that enters the system, the less the remaining money is worth. Gold and property have value because they are in relatively fixed supply. Money can just be created digitally, or a bit of ink slapped on a piece of paper; Voila! £20 from a bit of paper and ink!
Unlike old money which was gold, or gold-backed.

The "price" of things does not rise; it is the value of money which declines, due to governments being unable to raise more tax, and unable to cut benefits. So they print the shortfall and instead of taking our money, our money buys less (which is the same effect in a stealthy way).

 

[Vegelen]

But I'd spend my time wondering about other, easier ways to make ends meet.
One less packet of smokes a month, or two less beers, or one less shot at the lottery each week.

Lots of people in society are poor and don't waste money on smokes, booze and gambling.

Where do they run to, when they have to make choices between heating their homes and feeding their families?

 

[dchester]

Lots of people in society are poor and don't waste money on smokes, booze and gambling.

Where do they run to, when they have to make choices between heating their homes and feeding their families?

People who have never struggled with this real life scenario will never understand that point, sadly.

Unfortunately those kind of people have been running the country for a generation now. Career politicians. Without an understanding of how real people struggle to pay the bills each month there is not much hope for this country under ANY political party.

I am fortunate, or perhaps unfortunate, to have seen both sides of the coin during my life so I can see both points of view.

 

[Somecamel]

Lots of people in society are poor and don't waste money on smokes, booze and gambling.

Where do they run to, when they have to make choices between heating their homes and feeding their families?

I don't waste money on smokes and Booze. I need smokes and booze!! I can always wear a Jumper if I'm cold

 

[dchester]

Why invest when there is such regulatory and political risk? Or the risk of consumers demanding unrealistically low prices?
Like I said: prices can't go more than several percent lower - a fiver a month on an average bill.

If you want to spend your life arguing over a maximum saving of a fiver a month through "not-for-profit" gas/electric, then fine. But I'd spend my time wondering about other, easier ways to make ends meet.
One less packet of smokes a month, or two less beers, or one less shot at the lottery each week.

It's not just a few percent though is it. The latest rise alone for me from the wonderful NPower was 22% on my gas! And that is just this year! You ignore all the previous years' inflation busting price hikes. Take electricity, where I was just a few years ago paying 4p per kWh and my renewal price this year was around 10.5p - That's an increase of 162% on what I was paying about 6 years ago! And I cannot be alone in this.

 

[FB.]

Lots of people in society are poor and don't waste money on smokes, booze and gambling.

Where do they run to, when they have to make choices between heating their homes and feeding their families?

I grew up in a council house, on the worst estate in my town. I went to the worst schools until my teachers and a high school saw potential in me and took me on.
Many of my primary school friends are either dead, in prison, or junkies - mostly associated with crime.

When I was very young my mother was involved in an accident which left her disabled and unable to work. She underwent several operations and considerable time in hospital to try to improve her quality of life.
Only my father was able to work - and he had to care for us on his own at times (when my mother was too ill). He had left school during the Depression, as barely a teenager. His education was minimal. He mostly worked as a lorry driver (sand/gravel) or heavy machinery operator in the associated quarries and landfills.

Not much stoped his fighting spirit, determination and resourcefulness from giving us a decent quality of life - even when there were soaring prices and three-day-weeks in the 1970's.

So believe me: I'm not one of those who has always had it easy. I am well aware of how the real world works and how both sides live.

Too many people today expect something for nothing. It's a side effect of the benefits culture. A lot of the girls I went to school with had one aim in life: to get pregnant as soon as possible (age 15-16) in order to be given a council house and lots of benefits; never needing to do a day's work in their life. Then they carried on breeding like rats at the expense of tax-payers or tax-paying businesses - while those who do an honest hard day's work have to think about the consequences of having additional children.

 

[dchester]

Yes, because there has been too much emphasis on consumers and not enough on encouraging businesses to invest and create jobs.

There is very little emphasis on consumers. It's all about shareholders. I already said that. These companies don't want to invest in new cheaper energy sources. They want to milk their cash cow for all they can.

The economy will not get out of its slump unless businesses can be encouraged to invest, and they will not invest unless the profit margins are satisfactory.

The profit margin does not need to be high when sales volumes are so enormous. Many computer distributors work on margins of 1% or so for some items.

How many construction workers would be given jobs, if the utility companies suddenly were able to find profitable investment options for new power stations? How much extra would that inject into the ailing UK construction industry - and filter down as wages to ordinary people? Or should we continue to lack investment and buy all our power from the Continent, with money flowing overseas instead of the UK?

It does that anyway because foreign companies have been allowed to buy our utility companies.

I presume, then, that you'd like everything to be owned by the state - including your business. After all: almost everything is "essential" and therefore why should one industry or sector be any different to other industries or sectors (especially if margins are already very low)?

I don't know why you presume that. You seem to think I'm some kind of socialist, whereas I'm actually at the other end of the scale! Without competition prices would be artificially high but there is no real competition between these companies currently. And there we go again about low margins. 7% is not a low margin, especially with such a huge turnover. It's a very healthy margin.

As things stand, you can see where investors and businesses will put their money - smokes, booze and anything with a government subsidy. Not many will be interested in low-margin utilities and investment in utility infrastructure may be starved as a result.

If it were a normal business they would invest in new ways to produce cheap energy which they could then sell for a lower price, undercutting the competition and thus increasing their customer base, turnover and profit. This does not happen because they don't have to do it. Instead they can carry on fixing the prices at higher and higher levels knowing that we HAVE to pay it.

There is far too LITTLE regulation of this industry and in fact what regulation there is seems always to be in their favour and not the hard pressed consumers. These people are always crying about government subsidies. Why should they have any at all? They BOUGHT the water company or whatever utility it is and in doing so they should take on board what needs to be done. Fix the leaks. Improve distribution and create a better, cheaper source for their product. Then the customers will come. Then the profits will flow in. Then the shareholders AND the consumers will be happy.

Of course this will never happen without someone weilding a Big Stick because of one thing: Greed.

 

[sedgy34]

@ dchester I'm just catching up on this thread just read your last post 32and then read your first post you have the answer.
also FB is a consumer not a installer and contributes a lot to the forum if every consumer were like FB the country would all have Pv and the leeches you mention would have no other alternativve than to drop there energy prices

 

[dchester]

I grew up in a council house, on the worst estate in my town. I went to the worst schools until my teachers and a high school saw potential in me and took me on.
Many of my primary school friends are either dead, in prison, or junkies - mostly associated with crime.

When I was very young my mother was involved in an accident which left her disabled and unable to work. She underwent several operations and considerable time in hospital to try to improve her quality of life.
Only my father was able to work - and he had to care for us on his own at times (when my mother was too ill). He had left school during the Depression, as barely a teenager. His education was minimal. He mostly worked as a lorry driver (sand/gravel) or heavy machinery operator in the associated quarries and landfills.

Not much stoped his fighting spirit, determination and resourcefulness from giving us a decent quality of life - even when there were soaring prices and three-day-weeks in the 1970's.

So believe me: I'm not one of those who has always had it easy. I am well aware of how the real world works and how both sides live.

Too many people today expect something for nothing. It's a side effect of the benefits culture. A lot of the girls I went to school with had one aim in life: to get pregnant as soon as possible (age 15-16) in order to be given a council house and lots of benefits; never needing to do a day's work in their life. Then they carried on breeding like rats at the expense of tax-payers or tax-paying businesses - while those who do an honest hard day's work have to think about the consequences of having additional children.

OK so we seem to share the same basic ideals, however you appear to have completely lost touch with your roots because now you just don't seem to "get it". You talk only of your investment portfolio and forget about the real people out there who are struggling. I don't mean the spongers and theives. I mean normal middle class people who can't get a loan from the bank to expand or diversify their business. Can't make enough sales to pay the bills because their clients just don't have or are not prepared to risk spending their hard-earned cash on whatever it is that the chap is trying to sell them.

 

[dchester]

@ dchester I'm just catching up on this thread just read your last post 32and then read your first post you have the answer.
also FB is a consumer not a installer and contributes a lot to the forum if every consumer were like FB the country would all have Pv and the leeches you mention would have no other alternativve than to drop there energy prices

Death to the leeches!

D.

 

[sedgy34]

Death to the leeches!

D.

Im sure someone on here can price you a 4 kw Pv system get on board like us installers who have Pv on our own roofs
post your area

 

[Gavin A]

is it still worthwhile?

Where just rejigging our figures for November, and coming out with up to 16% annual return on investment even using the IRR method, which takes off the cost of the system before working out the return - for our cheapets 3.9kW system for a high daytime energy user (50% consumption on site).

Most reasonably priced 3-4kW systems will be more like 9-15% returns depending on price, orientation, system size, daytime energy consumption etc.

If you've got money in the bank earning sod all interest, and you're paying tax on what little interest you do get then you'll be hard pushed to find better long term returns than that IMO (it's tax income tax free, which makes a huge difference for higher rate tax payers).

 

[sedgy34]

We had a customer cash there ISA in and it paid for the Pv install they are well happy

 

[Eco Deal]

Our last customer did the same her own words ''why leave my money in the bank doing sod all''

 

[sedgy34]

Just think If the people in the country followed suit

 

[Vegelen]

Solar inverter replacement / repair should also be factored into any potential customers calculations.

SMA repair inverters in the UK for something like £300-£400.

Many other cheaper inverters may have to be replaced.

Customers should look to buy reliable, quality inverters with compatible solar pv hardware in a

system, designed and installed by professionals.

The recession has brought a lot of "doom and gloom", but its created opportunities for

those willing to look.

Right now lots of professional solar engineers stand idle.

Wholesalers are dumping quality inverters on the market at sub wholesale prices.

Solar pv panels are getting very cheap.

Smart people, can now install quality solar pv systems at very competitive prices with

minimal capital outlay compared to 2011.

 

[finchy]

Well said guys !! I'm getting squeezed on a really well spec'ed system margins are tight as it is. I guess customers see the price drops and think its within our control.

 

[sedgy34]

Well said guys !! I'm getting squeezed on a really well spec'ed system margins are tight as it is. I guess customers see the price drops and think its within our control.

not surprised there they always think they can pull the strings and play you off each other

 

[FB.]

We had a customer cash there ISA in and it paid for the Pv install they are well happy

I would do the same without hesitation.

 

[sedgy34]

I would do the same without hesitation.

maybe you could do a thread fb on the investers forum stating this i know your a fan

 

[FB.]

maybe you could do a thread fb on the investers forum stating this i know your a fan

I have suggested it a few times on investment forums.

I'm not an active member on investment forums at the moment.
I find myself very unpopular and on the receiving end of a lot of unpleasant comments at major market turn points (I believe one such turn is upon us; the next leg down for stockmarkets and the economy).
Everyone's patting themselves on the back for achieving good returns "so-and-so is up 30% in the last few months" and they're counting-up how filthy rich they're going to get over the next several months as "it's going to go up another 30%!" - and then a party-pooper like me says "er.....calm down lads: now you've all piled-in, who is left to buy? Nothing goes up forever".
I find myself unpopular because I'm "being fearful when others are greedy and being greedy when others are fearful" to borrow a phrase from one of the World's greatest investors (Warren Buffett).

 

[balbecdaze]

With great respect to FB, and Vegelen, and Sedgy 34, and others, who, having read your comments I know i'd get on with in real life but - for me, "is it worthwhile?" isn't about money, its about the terrible things we're doing to the planet and the ways we can help to make sure there's still a planet humans can live on.

I know, I've completely missed the point of this thread.

It's not just still "worthwhile", it's a moral imperative!

 

[Green]

With great respect to FB, and Vegelen, and Sedgy 34, and others, who, having read your comments I know i'd get on with in real life but - for me, "is it worthwhile?" isn't about money, its about the terrible things we're doing to the planet and the ways we can help to make sure there's still a planet humans can live on.

I know, I've completely missed the point of this thread.

It's not just still "worthwhile", it's a moral imperative!

This ^