Trying to get a domestic electrical safety certificate...

[Armourer]

I am trying to get a domestic electrical safety certificate so I can rent out my house in Southampton but my electrician has come up with £300 of remedial work before he will pass it. He claims the pendant light in the bathroom breaks IP rules and the law and that I can be prosecuted for it. Now I know it’s a very good idea to have it changed for IPx4 rating but it’s over 2m from the bath/shower and so only just inside zone 3, well out of reach (high ceiling), cord operated and never had any condensation on the lead. Installed before 1999, not regulated and certainly not a criminal offence! In the kitchen he reckons that a 32 A 1.5m radial to one double socket for tumble dryer and washing machine (max load 5kW) needs to be uprated. Yet by my calculations the 2.5 mm2 cable could happily run 7kW over 10m. Some others I won’t bore you with, so my question is what action could/should I take with an electrician who is either incompetent or (more likely) just trying to pad a bill and expects to be paid his inspection fee and how do I go about finding a decent electrician if I can't trust an NICEIC contractor.

 

[Plonker 3]

Could you scan the report in forums to see, then we will be able to make more comment on the report for you.

 

[Sintra]

Well TBH he is correct by saying that the 1.5mm cable protected by the 32A OPD needs upgraded. The pendant light issue could be sorted for next to nothing by changing the standard lampholder to a TRS lampholder.

EDIT

Sorry 1.5M of 2.5mm cable. Still a 2.5mm cable can not be protected by a 32A OPD but the solution here would be to decrease the OPD.

 

[monkeyelectric]

I am trying to get a domestic electrical safety certificate so I can rent out my house in Southampton but my electrician has come up with £300 of remedial work before he will pass it. He claims the pendant light in the bathroom breaks IP rules and the law and that I can be prosecuted for it. Now I know it’s a very good idea to have it changed for IPx4 rating but it’s over 2m from the bath/shower and so only just inside zone 3, well out of reach (high ceiling), cord operated and never had any condensation on the lead. Installed before 1999, not regulated and certainly not a criminal offence! In the kitchen he reckons that a 32 A 1.5m radial to one double socket for tumble dryer and washing machine (max load 5kW) needs to be uprated. Yet by my calculations the 2.5 mm2 cable could happily run 7kW over 10m. Some others I won’t bore you with, so my question is what action could/should I take with an electrician who is either incompetent or (more likely) just trying to pad a bill and expects to be paid his inspection fee and how do I go about finding a decent electrician if I can't trust an NICEIC contractor.

Is the £300 including the original inspection fee?

 

[plugsandsparks]

sounds like the kitchen socket is a spur off a 32A ring ??? - or is the whole circuit a radial ??? as mentioned would need to see the test sheet.
If it really is a radial , downgrade breaker and tell renter to not use both appliances at the same time

 

[Deleted member 9648]

2.5mm radial just needs a 20a OCPD.....Pendant based on your description should not attract a code.
First port of call if you have employed an NICEIC contractor and you are not happy is the NICEIC complaints proceedure.

 

[Octopus]

Not enough information BUT asking for an EICR does not guarantee a "satisfactory" outcome.

 

[Sintra]

Just use a 25A breaker job done.

 

[SirKit Breaker]

2.5mm radial just needs a 20a OCPD.....Pendant based on your description should not attract a code.
First port of call if you have employed an NICEIC contractor and you are not happy is the NICEIC complaints proceedure.

And good luck with that, but worth a try !

 

[Plonker 3]

What did the contractor say when you raised these queries with them?

 

[rattlehead85]

The pendant issue if outside zone 2 and not reachable by persons readily standing in a bath or shower would warrant only a C3 at worst. Only attribute this due to conditions of dampness and rising steam. Certainly not a danger just a non compliance depending on how you view the fitting and the conditions it is installed in,
The 1.5mm2 cable is a C2. £300 does appear to be a bit steep. How big is the dwelling?

 

[moose]

The Light Fitting what was his grade for it C3 or ?

Im thinking the Sparky could be looking at the fact that a radial 2.5mm has exceeded the 2kw rating for a radial but im looking at long periods of time on the radial( Reg 433.1), providing reasonable sharing of the load around the ring circuit as well, thats why a Washing machine and a Dryer could be best served on maybe two seperate fused Spurs on the ring etc.

The Periodic report is the report You should have been using not a Insulation Report anyway.

 

[Armourer]

No, the inspection fee is separate. £240+VAT is for replacing a socket, couple of marker sleeves, derating an MCB by swapping for an unused one, replacing main earthing conductor wire, replacing & re-siting bathroom light and uprating 1.5m radial. Bout an hour if he stops for tea. Small 3 bed semi btw.

Radial is direct from consumer unit in kitchen, 32A MCB, so yes if there's a reg I'm not aware of regarding 32A radials and 2.5mm cable over such a short distance I'll just derate to 25A. Thanks Sintra.

No ratings at all have been provided for any faults so unable to say whether they are C2 or C3, sorry.

 

[Octopus]

No, the inspection fee is a separate £115. £300 is for replacing a socket, couple of marker sleeves, derating an MCB by swapping for an unused one, replacing main earthing conductor wire, replacing/resiting bathroom light and uprating 1.5m radial. Bout an hour if he stops for tea.

Well over an hour but certainly not £300 worth, I would agree with that.

Have you paid him for the inspection?

 

[Adam W]

How many kids does the electrician have?

 

[Armourer]

How many kids does the electrician have?

I don't know, but I've got 3 if that helps.

 

[Octopus]

Can you list the C1, C2 and C3 "faults" the report lists so we can comment on them constructively?

Then you could go back and ask for a quote for those you need and see what the revised price is.

You should also tell him that you will be getting competetive quotes too.

Cowboys like this damage the reputation of the profession.

 

[Adam W]

I don't know, but I've got 3 if that helps.

Find out. If you have more than him you may be able to use that to negotiate a discount.
"I've got three kids to feed!" etc.
Apparently it works like that.
You might be shooting yourself in the foot if he's got more though, so best to find out discreetly first.

 

[Armourer]

Can you list the C1, C2 and C3 "faults" the report lists so we can comment on them constructively?

Then you could go back and ask for a quote for those you need and see what the revised price is.

You should also tell him that you will be getting competetive quotes too.

Cowboys like this damage the reputation of the profession.

This is the only report I have received although I had commissioned an inspection for a Landlord's Safety Cert. No mention of that though. By the sound of it I should have received an EICR with C rated defects - is that right and is it a standard form? Do all defects need to be rectified for the Landord's Cert or just C1's?

Circuits are not numbered on outside but MCB 4th from left is burglar alarm and 500W security light so No 2 and 3 appear to be the same. Telephone conversation was confusing but I was threatened with prosecution if the bathroom pendant light (in zone 3) was not changed.

 

[Octopus]

View attachment 16973
This is the only report I have received although I had commissioned an inspection for a Landlord's Safety Cert. No mention of that though. By the sound of it I should have received an EICR with C rated defects - is that right and is it a standard form? Do all defects need to be rectified for the Landord's Cert or just C1's?

You need to ask him to place C1 (worst) C2 (medium) C3 (observation) against his notes - looks to me as if he is trying to baffle you.

#4 is only relevent if you have metal switches or sockets.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

No, the inspection fee is separate. £240+VAT is for replacing a socket, couple of marker sleeves, derating an MCB by swapping for an unused one, replacing main earthing conductor wire, replacing & re-siting bathroom light and uprating 1.5m radial. Bout an hour if he stops for tea. Small 3 bed semi btw.

Radial is direct from consumer unit in kitchen, 32A MCB, so yes if there's a reg I'm not aware of regarding 32A radials and 2.5mm cable over such a short distance I'll just derate to 25A. Thanks Sintra.

No ratings at all have been provided for any faults so unable to say whether they are C2 or C3, sorry.

You sound like a typical client....'Bout an hour if he stops for tea' my arse......like to see you do that much work ,whatever it is you do,in an hour.

 

[Armourer]

You sound like a typical client....'Bout an hour if he stops for tea' my arse......like to see you do that much work ,whatever it is you do,in an hour.

Yes, sorry for my flipancy. It would take me about an hour except for the light re-siting, which I don't want or need (why move a light from zone 3 to zone 2) and I was guessing a sparks would be quicker.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Yes, sorry for my flipancy. It would take me about an hour except for the light re-siting, which I don't want or need (why move a light from zone 3 to zone 2) and I was guessing a sparks would be quicker.

Does that include completing a 5 page EIC as a circuit has been rewired and an OCPD changed?



BTW there is no longer a zone 3....it's either Z1,Z2 or outside the zones.

 

[Englishsparks]

Why is it that now days Joe public seem to THINK they know more than the tradesman that they brought in.

Without seeing the property my guess is that the amount being quoted is fair.

Do these people actually realise how much work is involved, on site doing the physical job and then after filling out certificates,

 

[Steve_P]

Sorry but that's not something I've seen on an EICR before, looks like a word table designed to baffle. I'm not saying he's wrong and couldn't really say without seeing the full report or the house itself but which page of the EICR is that from?

Definitely more than an hour though, or does he not intend to do any testing or issue a cert?

Have you paid for the report yet?

 

[decolad69]

Is that not a weeks rent to you ?

 

[Armourer]

Sorry but that's not something I've seen on an EICR before, looks like a word table designed to baffle. I'm not saying he's wrong and couldn't really say without seeing the full report or the house itself but which page of the EICR is that from?

Definitely more than an hour though, or does he not intend to do any testing or issue a cert?


Have you paid for the report yet?

The point is THERE IS NO EICR.
The ONLY report given to me is the table I posted above.

I haven't paid and it's now clear thanks to all who have replied that I should hold out for a proper EICR with C ratings as this is clearly what was meant when I requested a landlord's electrical safety inspection and certificate (which is how it is referred to by so many letting agencies).

 

[Armourer]

Is that not a weeks rent to you ?

Clearly you fall into the same category as the cowboy I employed - more concerned with how much you can walk away with rather than producing a professional report.

 

[Adam W]

cowboy

Why is he a "cowboy"?
He might just be trying earn money to feed his kids.

 

[Englishsparks]

The point is THERE IS NO EICR.
The ONLY report given to me is the table I posted above.

I haven't paid and it's now clear thanks to all who have replied that I should hold out for a proper EICR with C ratings as this is clearly what was meant when I requested a landlord's electrical safety inspection and certificate (which is how it is referred to by so many letting agencies).

You say that you are going to hold out for a proper EICR with C ratings!
That won't happen if you have circuits with over rated mcbs on them.

So I would suggest that you get into the real world,

Typical landlord comes complete with shotgun and tries to override everything. You all seem to think that the rules don't apply to you.

 

[not clever]

1. Ask him for the report, as in the 5 page EICR not the carp he has given you.
2. You do not have to act on any of the recomendations, it is up to you what you do but the report is yours (once you've paid).
3. Get quotes from other electricians to do the remedials or do them yourself, you do not have to use the spark who has undertaken the EICR.
4. If others do the remedials ask for certs & attach to the unsatisfactory report, this will show the remedials have been done.
5. There is no Zone 3 so ignore that or just put up a cheap as chips bathroom light.
6. Earth fly lead to back boxes not required if one lug is static.
7. 1.5mm on a 32amp mcb protected circuit as a spur, yes change it or drop a fused spur in between the 1.5mm & the 2.5mm circuit.
8. £250 for a small domestic, he saw you comming. but if thats his price thats his price, you could have got other quotes.
9. £300 for the remedials does seem a tad steep, whats on that list you could look at £150 - £200 labour.
10. dont bother reporting as sod all will get done & the scam operator will just tell you to speak to the contractor to try and resolve the issue as they have no influence on contractors pricing structures.

 

[Armourer]

Why is he a "cowboy"?
He might just be trying earn money to feed his kids.

Not producing a professional EICR, threatening me with prosecution if a light in zone 3 (which I now know no longer exists) isn't replaced, quoting for other unnecessary work (see replies above), listing items twice and bumping up the bill for some straightforward screwdriver work - ummm isn't that the def of a cowboy tradesman?

But what concerns me a lot is the number of replies referring to whether he has kids to feed as if this gives the right to rip off stupid Joe public like me who dares to think he knows better ... I also have kids to feed and I do so on £5k a year.

Many thanks to all those professional responses I have received, I now know what I have to do.

 

[Steve_P]

I'm with Not Clever

 

[Armourer]

You say that you are going to hold out for a proper EICR with C ratings!
That won't happen if you have circuits with over rated mcbs on them.

So I would suggest that you get into the real world,

Typical landlord comes complete with shotgun and tries to override everything. You all seem to think that the rules don't apply to you.

I don't understand this response. Are you saying I'm not eligble for an EICR (which should detail the incorrect rated MCBs) because there are over rated MCBs?

Let's be clear, I want the house safe and certified and I'm prepared to pay for all the remedial work that is NECESSARY.

If I was not in the real world I would not be on here.

 

[Des 56]

Before becoming irrate with some responses,just remember one thing

"You! engaged his services,!you! are the person who did the research before engaging someone for this task

!You" also did not come up to scratch with your own responsibility to yourself

 

[Octopus]

I don't understand this response. Are you saying I'm not eligble for an EICR (which should detail the incorrect rated MCBs) because there are over rated MCBs?

Let's be clear, I want the house safe and certified and I'm prepared to pay for all the remedial work that is NECESSARY.

If I was not in the real world I would not be on here.

I'll repeat myself.

Email the sparky and ask for the EICR and your invoice. Once you have that you can decide what to do next.

 

[Englishsparks]

I don't understand this response. Are you saying I'm not eligble for an EICR (which should detail the incorrect rated MCBs) because there are over rated MCBs?

Let's be clear, I want the house safe and certified and I'm prepared to pay for all the remedial work that is NECESSARY.

If I was not in the real world I would not be on here.

That is not what I am saying, of coarse you are ligible for an EICR?
Satisfactory or Unsatisfactory

What I am saying is that with the mcb being over rated for the cable, you will not get a report with all C3s on it. This warrants a C2, wich is automatically a Unsatisfactory result. In other words a failure.

 

[Armourer]

I'll repeat myself.

Email the sparky and ask for the EICR and your invoice. Once you have that you can decide what to do next.

Email would be lovely. Unfortunately he only does second class post. I have the invoice but I'll ask for the EICR, thanks.

 

[Adam W]

But what concerns me a lot is the number of replies referring to whether he has kids to feed as if this gives the right to rip off stupid Joe public like me who dares to think he knows better ... I also have kids to feed and I do so on £5k a year.

How does your having kids to feed give you the right to cut corners on electrical safety in a property which you're expecting someone else to pay to live in?

 

[Armourer]

How does your having kids to feed give you the right to cut corners on electrical safety in a property which you're expecting someone else to pay to live in?

Not at all sure why you think it's me that's cutting corners. Thanks to the replies I now know the electrician I employed has cut the corners and the proper name of the report I commisioned. I wholeheartedly agree with Des 56 that I should have known that beforehand and have discovered from other threads that an awful lot of electricians and the whole of the letting agency fraternity don't know what it is called either. The pendant light, socket and MCDs will be changed in an hour and a competent electrician will undertake a full retest and carry out any remedial work necessary. The original guy will get his inspection fee only when he produces an EICR, otherwise his kids will go hungry.

Which kind of brings me full circle. How can I tell in the first place who is competent and professional like Murdoch, Sintra, not clever, Steve_P, plugsandsparks and rattlehead85 and who is just out to feed their kids and the ones next door?

 

[Octopus]

Email would be lovely. Unfortunately he only does second class post. I have the invoice but I'll ask for the EICR, thanks.

When he chases for payment simply say you won't pay it without receiving the report.

 

[Engineer54]

Not at all sure why you think it's me that's cutting corners. Thanks to the replies I now know the electrician I employed has cut the corners and the proper name of the report I commisioned. I wholeheartedly agree with Des 56 that I should have known that beforehand and have discovered from other threads that an awful lot of electricians and the whole of the letting agency fraternity don't know what it is called either. The pendant light, socket and MCDs will be changed in an hour and a competent electrician will undertake a full retest and carry out any remedial work necessary. The original guy will get his inspection fee only when he produces an EICR, otherwise his kids will go hungry.

Which kind of brings me full circle. How can I tell in the first place who is competent and professional like Murdoch, Sintra, not clever, Steve_P, plugsandsparks and rattlehead85 and who is just out to feed their kids and the ones next door?

There lies a very real problem, not only for you, but for all domestic homeowners!!
The best solution is getting recommendations from trusted friends and family. Far too easy now to end-up with incompetent guy's that were stacking shelves at Tescos 17 day's ago...lol!! Unbelievable i know, but unfortunately very true none the less!! lol!!

 

[richy3333]

You say you've paid £240 for that 1 page document? Outrageous. A properly completed EICR on a TYPICAL small 3 bed house shouldn't really cost that much, but labour rates will vary around the country. There's no such official document as a 'Landlords electrical check' (or whatever it was called) The Wiring Regs (BS7671) detail 3 types of report and in this instance you're after an EICR.

£300 appears to be a bit steep for the remedial's, but it's always hard to say without seeing the installation, and again labour rates vary depending on location.

 

[kingeri]

Surely if you paid for an EICR then you should have received an EICR. Simple.

 

[decolad69]

Nothing. I am a landlord who only employs resistered contractors. And pays the going rate. You seem to know exactly what's required, and aparently could do this lot in 1 hour? Did you do it first time round ?

 

[Adam W]

There lies a very real problem, not only for you, but for all domestic homeowners!!
The best solution is getting recommendations from trusted friends and family. Far too easy now to end-up with incompetent guy's that were stacking shelves at Tescos 17 day's ago...lol!! Unbelievable i know, but unfortunately very true none the less!! lol!!

I was going to say that.
Being an NICEIC approved contractor isn't the guarantee they'd like you to believe it is; just the same as any large company they're only as good as the individual you're dealing with.

 

[MDJ]

Not sure of what or who to believe, but I see a lot of spark bashing by Landords here, the thing here is you asked for a report, he gave you a report as you have posted up the page of faults, you don't need to get him to do any of the work, it's your call, whats the problem again??

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I'd expect a full EICR to cost around £150.
What you have cut and pasted, is not much better than a Visual Condition Report.
Something that is not in my opinion something that is worth the paper it is written on.
It is also something that is not recognised by the Regulations.
Send this back, informing the gut that you want a complete report, along with a schedule of inspections and test results.