What training course I will need to do my job safely?

[LordKelvin]

Dear All,

Someone will remember me from the other 3D...I am still in training (so not going in the field) but my tasks are taking form and I would ask to you experts what kind of training course I will need to attempt to be SAFE myself and...safe the others...

The machine has got mechanical (rotating parts, blades to cut, etc..) and of course electrical components (switches, relays, motors, PLC, circuit breakers, etc.)

My tasks might be:

1 - troubleshooting of ANY problem in our machines sold to the customer. So I will know the machine and all its components.
2 - design improvement of the machine (mechanical side and electrical side)

my doubt is: I have a degree in Mechanical Engineering, Do I need to be an electrician for this job?? I do not believe so because it`s less challenging than be sent somewhere to fix some machines...it`s OUR machine and we know where it will be sold...

At the same time I suppose I will need some "official" training on safety etc.

May you guys please advise me about what I need exactly to do this job on the electrical side? there are 1 day course, 3 days courses... 17th courses... I am a bit confused

Really thanks.

Mario

 

[Richard Burns]

Your training should mainly be in relation to machinery controls and machinery safety and how to design and modify these in safe manner.
You should know electrically what constitutes a safe supply for your machines but thereafter the Wiring regulations will be fairly irrelevant.
You should also be trained in the relevant regulations applicable to the provision and use of work equipment (PUWER), Supply of machinery safety regulations, health and safety at work act, etc.
You would also need to be aware of the applicable standards like these, if relevant to your machines (taken from the Schneider handbook)
EN ISO 12100 Safety of machinery - General principles for design - Risk assessment and risk reduction
EN 574 Safety of machinery - Two-hand control devices - Functional aspects - principles for design
EN ISO 13850 Safety of machinery - Emergency stop - Principles for design
EN 62061 Safety of machinery - Functional safety of safety-related electrical, electronic and programmable electronic control systems
EN ISO 13849-1 Safety of machinery - Safety-related parts of control systems - Part 1: general principles for design
EN 349 Safety of machinery - Minimum gaps to avoid crushing of parts of the human body
EN ISO 13857 Safety of machinery - Safety distances to prevent hazard zones being reached by upper and lower limbs
EN 60204-1 Safety of machinery - Electrical equipment of machines - Part 1: general requirements
EN ISO 13855 Safety of machinery - Positioning of safeguards in respect of approach speeds of parts of the human body
EN 1088 Safety of machinery - Interlocking devices associated with guards - Principles for design and selection
EN 61496-1 Safety of machinery - Electro-sensitive protective equipment. Part 1: General requirements and tests
EN 60947-5-5 Low-voltage switchgear and control gear - Part 5-5: Control circuit devices and switching elements - Electrical emergency stop device with mechanical latching function
EN 842 Visual danger signals - General requirements, design and testing
EN 1037 Prevention of unexpected start-up
EN 953 General requirements for the design and construction of fixed and movable guards
EN 201 Plastics and rubber machines - Injection moulding machines - Safety requirements
EN 692 Machine Tools - Mechanical presses - Safety
EN 693 Machine Tools - Safety - Hydraulic presses
EN 289 Plastics and rubber machines – Presses - Safety requirements
EN 422 Plastics and rubber machines - Blow moulding machines - Safety requirements
EN ISO 10218-1 Robots and robotic devices - Safety requirements for industrial robots - Part 1: Robots
EN 415-3 Safety of packaging machines - Part 3: Form, fill and seal machines
EN 619 Continuous handling equipment and systems - Safety and EMC requirements for equipment for mechanical handling of unit loads
EN 620 Continuous handling equipment and systems - Safety and EMC requirements for fixed belt conveyors for bulk materials

 

[LordKelvin]

Richard,

Really thanks for your very long reply!

So for all the listed standards I could actually and literally take a book and study? Like the Schneider installation book and machinery safety handbook right?

Re the first part of your post I wonder if I could have more detail I mean lot of course are called safety of machinery other electrical safety...some are 1 day and might be mostly theoretic..others 3 days like workshop but I dont know if I need to become almost an electrician due that I will troubleshoot something that might be faulty on the electrical side

Thanks

 

[Richard Burns]

If you are only working with machines made by your company then you should not need to know more than the basic electrical comprehension of the supply to the machines (which is what would come under BS7671), however for the electrical controls and interlocks within the machine then you would need to know the details of BSEN60204 to cover the electrical equipment of machines.
This would be different from the requirements of the wiring regulations (BS7671) which is what one would generally expect an electrician to know
However it would not stop there because you would also need to know about emergency stops and safe design of safety circuits, etc.
You would need to know electrical theory in a basic manner to understand current flow and resistance and switching etc..
The greater part of your need would be how your machines operate and and can be repaired (within the requirements of the standards)

Probably your best bet would be to contact the suppliers of the electrical controls used in your machines and see if they run training courses in the appropriate topics for your needs.

 

[LordKelvin]

Most of the safety components are from Schneider. I could consider myself lucky...I already downloaded the handbook (64pp) and the installation guide (almost 500!).

So my needs are not to become "almost an electrician" then. But what if they call me and say the machine stopped and the fault is in a safety circuit or on the electrical side of it? I will not need perhaps to know how to find a fault and also work live?? This is not being "almost" an electrician? Or you guys think my job will be quite easy on the electrical side because I know in detail the machine and I will just need basic safety rules and thats it?

Thanks

 

[Richard Burns]

The standard definition of an electrician is someone who works to BS7671.

You would not be a standard electrician, the majority of BS7671 will not help fix a machine.

If a machine is not working then you can initially test to see if there is power going to the machine if there is no power then you ask the customer to arrange repair of the supply, this would not be down to you. Though you may well need to know the type of supply, current, voltage, inrush current, vibration resistance, type of cabling required for the machine but this would be standard specifications for that machine.

You would need to know how electrical systems (inside a machine) work in detail.

You will need to be able to diagnose a fault on the electrical controls, wiring, control systems, safety systems, etc.

In general you would not work live as this is against the Electricity at work regulations 1989.

The skills in fault finding are learnt over time and cannot be easily taught because each situation is different, however as you will be working on specific machines you should be able to garner information about the most common faults easily.

 

[shanky887614]

If you are only working with machines made by your company then you should not need to know more than the basic electrical comprehension of the supply to the machines (which is what would come under BS7671), however for the electrical controls and interlocks within the machine then you would need to know the details of BSEN60204 to cover the electrical equipment of machines.
This would be different from the requirements of the wiring regulations (BS7671) which is what one would generally expect an electrician to know
However it would not stop there because you would also need to know about emergency stops and safe design of safety circuits, etc.
You would need to know electrical theory in a basic manner to understand current flow and resistance and switching etc..
The greater part of your need would be how your machines operate and and can be repaired (within the requirements of the standards)

Probably your best bet would be to contact the suppliers of the electrical controls used in your machines and see if they run training courses in the appropriate topics for your needs.

give schneider a ring (telford, or call the one in ashby and ask to speak to phill at the training school), they have there own inhouse training now.

they offer the basic electrical safety you will want and courses on there kit there in the workshop.

bassically part theory and part practical on giant breadboards.


if it is just emergency stops are they simply wired through a contactor that will drop the power out on activation or do they send a low voltage control signal. these are all things to consider.

 

[LordKelvin]

give schneider a ring

I will.

Plus I guess I need to study every books about the standards I need to know (Schneider handbook and perhaps installation guide)

Thanks

 

[LordKelvin]

I also downloaded 20pp pdf of 1989 legislation of electricity at work from the gov.uk website

 

[LordKelvin]

Guys will it be enough a 1 day training on safety from an electrical training company (Tinson training)??? I do not underdstand if it is enough just 1 day course or I will need a more comprehensive one...

I can also read the books on my own of course....

 

[LordKelvin]

For example this course?

Electrical Maintenance Training - Electrical Maintenance Courses - Tinson Training

or

[url]http://www.tinsontraining.co.uk/electrical-courses/electrical-fault-finding-training/
[/URL]

 

[LordKelvin]

https://www.pilz.com/en-GB/services/trainings/seminars/articles/074213

this will be more expensive so I dont know if they will pay it for me..... it might be enough one of the first two??? This last one looks like more tailored for what I need....... :icon_bs:

 

[Richard Burns]

You are correct the Pilz one is much more the sort of thing that you would need, the wording and the approach seem much more in line with what I would expect.

But the tinson one (with the one above it in the list) might be OK, it will not lead to a qualification but should be good as continuous professional development.

 

[LordKelvin]

You are correct the Pilz one is much more the sort of thing that you would need, the wording and the approach seem much more in line with what I would expect.

But the tinson one (with the one above it in the list) might be OK, it will not lead to a qualification but should be good as continuous professional development.

Electrical Maintenance Training - Electrical Maintenance Courses - Tinson Training

you meant this?

If I ask for both the Tinson I will pay more than the Pilz one though!



So the thing is if they do not want to spend too much for this courses...Will it be enough just ONE of Tinson?? I mean if the training value is in a ratio 3:1 (Pilzer:Tinson)...I must go for Pilzer....


Please note that I do not mind at all a qualification...just to have a good course that will allow me to be safe!!

 

[Richard Burns]

If you truly want to be safe then you would need to do a long course or be mentored over a long period by an experienced person.
As you say you would not get an expensive course approved then you will not have a comprehensive knowledge simple as that.

However if you do some short one day courses this may give you enough knowledge to be able to assess more fully the actual courses that you would need to be safe.

TUV SUD have a free downloadable guide to machinery safety, a free half day workshop, full day training courses (£225 30 d in advance), Machinery safety essentials, electrical machinery safety.

Conformance have a one day course on safety control systems (£350)
HSL have one day courses in Buxton for machinery supply and PUWER (£395)

perhaps some of these may help to steer you in the direction of better training courses and also give you a powerful argument why you need the course, because you then know what you need.

 

[LordKelvin]

If you truly want to be safe then you would need to do a long course or be mentored over a long period by an experienced person.
As you say you would not get an expensive course approved then you will not have a comprehensive knowledge simple as that.

However if you do some short one day courses this may give you enough knowledge to be able to assess more fully the actual courses that you would need to be safe.

TUV SUD have a free downloadable guide to machinery safety, a free half day workshop, full day training courses (£225 30 d in advance), Machinery safety essentials, electrical machinery safety.

Conformance have a one day course on safety control systems (£350)
HSL have one day courses in Buxton for machinery supply and PUWER (£395)

perhaps some of these may help to steer you in the direction of better training courses and also give you a powerful argument why you need the course, because you then know what you need.

and reading books will not help enough?

 

[Richard Burns]

Remember I do not know your level of capability the type of machines you wish to repair/install or your current training level.

It is possible that reading books will be enough to ensure that you can understand the theory and then you could look for a practical course or mentor with someone experienced in your company to hone this knowledge.
It is unlikely that reading alone will be enough to ensure you are fully competent, but if you already have basic level of electrical knowledge and are good at learning and applying the learning then it could be enough.

 

[LordKelvin]

Remember I do not know your level of capability the type of machines you wish to repair/install or your current training level.

It is possible that reading books will be enough to ensure that you can understand the theory and then you could look for a practical course or mentor with someone experienced in your company to hone this knowledge.
It is unlikely that reading alone will be enough to ensure you are fully competent, but if you already have basic level of electrical knowledge and are good at learning and applying the learning then it could be enough.

I am good at learning.

I do not have mentor in the company.

I will try to push for the best course possible and reading then a lot.
They like the course from Tinson so I could easily push for ONE of the two...they are 3 days not 1 day so they might be ok??

what do you advice between the two if I have to choose, as I will????

I am really appreciating your support

 

[Richard Burns]

It is a pity that you do not have someone to bounce ideas off, it does make things easier.

The two courses are actually fairly similar one focuses more on the testing for electrical faults and the other on understanding the components.

As you are already a mechanical engineer I would assume you do know how things work in general even if you are not up to speed with the electrical side, if this is the case then I would say the course covering more of the testing i.e. the electrical fault finding one would be of more use.

You must be aware of the regulations in place for what you are going to be doing so that your company is not liable in case of problems.

You can read up on the components specific to your machines.

 

[LordKelvin]

It is a pity that you do not have someone to bounce ideas off, it does make things easier.

The two courses are actually fairly similar one focuses more on the testing for electrical faults and the other on understanding the components.

As you are already a mechanical engineer I would assume you do know how things work in general even if you are not up to speed with the electrical side, if this is the case then I would say the course covering more of the testing i.e. the electrical fault finding one would be of more use.

You must be aware of the regulations in place for what you are going to be doing so that your company is not liable in case of problems.

You can read up on the components specific to your machines.

I know I am a bit a solitaire fighter lol :mad2::mad2::mad2:

I have all the spec for all the components in the machines so I could read that.

plus I could read all the regulations and standard that concern my machines.

In addition of all this I could so attempt that fault finding course.

Will this be "good enough" in your opinion or I have to push stronger to have something like the Pilz course?? Sincerely.... Thanks for your patience