Wiring Advice for Garage RCD Needed

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Frankie79

Hi all,

I am looking to replace a very old and rusty RCD unit with a modern day unit. The old unit is different to the new one and I would like to be 100% sure i have the wiring correct. The situation i need explained is this:

1. I have the mains coming into the unit
2. I have a 2 way socket which needs to connected.

I have attached a picture of the unit with some crude lines on it. To clarify the picture what i have is the following.

1. The mains live (red line at the bottom) connects to the bottom next the the Neutral
2. The mains neutral and earth go up the the bars at the top
3. The 4 way copper bar bridges the neutrals across the top. (Blue)
4. The 2 way socket mains live (red line coming in from the right) connects to the 32A unit
5. The 2 way socket neutral and earth connect to their respective bars at the top.

Can someone tell me if this is correct? As i said all i am doing is replacing the old unit as it was way past it's useable life.

Thanks,

Frank
 

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Before going any further, do you hold any electrical qualifications?

Not to put the dampers on your enthusiasm but your wiring method is not only wrong but dangerous. At least you've taken the time to ask rather than wading straight in.

There's a lot more to this than just slapping it on the wall and connecting up, there's testing and certification that needs to be completed to ensure that your installation is fault free and more importantly safe.

Please get a qualified spark in to do your work, also this is notifiable to building control.
 
I know why those lines are so crud, it's because you were in fits of laughter whilst posting this hilarious thread!

Pack it in will you and jog on back to whatever other forum you usually frequent! lol
 
Tell you what, wire it up that way and post back what happens ;) You don't suffer with a heart condition do you?

PS remember you will need the correct PPE:thumbsup
 
If this is a serious question then a serious answer is you only have one route correct.

Please ignore my posts if this is genuine and post up your location. You definitely need assistance here and I am sure a member close to you would be more than happy to pop around and take care of this for you:thumbsup
 
Awesome thanks for the advice. Once it was cabled up i was going to have a sparky test it. If no-one on this forum is going to give me the advice I need then I will obtain it elsewhere. Rest assured i wont be cabling it up until I am 100% sure it's correct.
1shortcct, i dont usually sit on forums as i generally have much better things to do with my time.
APelectrical - your right...your bad.

Thanks Again!
 
Frankie79 said:
Awesome thanks for the advice. Once it was cabled up i was going to have a sparky test it. If no-one on this forum is going to give me the advice I need then I will obtain it elsewhere. Rest assured i wont be cabling it up until I am 100% sure it's correct.
1shortcct, i dont usually sit on forums as i generally have much better things to do with my time.
APelectrical - your right...your bad.

Thanks Again!
Click to expand...

Wouldn't bother cabling it at all - just leave half a metre of cable for the spark to put them in the right holes.
 
Frankie79 said:
Awesome thanks for the advice. Once it was cabled up i was going to have a sparky test it. If no-one on this forum is going to give me the advice I need then I will obtain it elsewhere. Rest assured i wont be cabling it up until I am 100% sure it's correct.
1shortcct, i dont usually sit on forums as i generally have much better things to do with my time.
APelectrical - your right...your bad.

Thanks Again!
Click to expand...

So have we established that this is a genuine post?

If so, I apologise. We often get such questions asked only to find out that a trades person from another forum is a little bored and wants to gain the wrong sort of attention from the Sparks.

Feel free to obtain your information elsewhere because nobody here is going to post out the information.

There are so many things wrong with that picture and so many things that "Could" be wrong further back towards the house. Whilst people think that it's only a few wires there is actually a lot more to it. Not to mention that what you are trying to do is notifiable to the local authority building control - BY LAW!
 
yet another wannabe .....go ahead...and if it fires and/or you get stray voltages as a result of incompetance....hard lines fella.....look, do yoursen a favour here Frankie....get a sparks in to do it will you....plenty in here ....sure some of em are not far from you......
 
Frank,
If you connect it up as you have described in your diagram there is a possibility that you will get a rather larger flash/bang ! since you are placing live and neutral directly across one coil of the RCD which will most likely render it useless.

This is going to be a costly experiment for you - so don't, whatever you do, make those connections.

Now I am not going to tell you how to do it since my professional indemnity is unlikely to cover me, but I would strongly recommend that you get someone who does know how (experienced electrician) to do it for you.
 
thanks plugsandsparks, I have a couple of (qualified) friends I can speak to who will do it for me, just wanted to get it done tomorrow morning as opposed to later this week. I (incorrectly) thought I could come onto a forum for advice instead of abuse from some of the other posters.

Thanks.
 
Frankie79 said:
thanks plugsandsparks, I have a couple of (qualified) friends I can speak to who will do it for me, just wanted to get it done tomorrow morning as opposed to later this week. I (incorrectly) thought I could come onto a forum for advice instead of abuse from some of the other posters.

Thanks.
Click to expand...

I think you need to take a sit down and have a word with yourself here.

Electricity kills and what you have shown us is a potentially lethal situation so with that in mind you deserve the abuse!

Had you have had just one cable incorrect then you may have, very possibly depending on the mood of the poster had a heads up as to where you have gone wrong.

I apologised since realising that this was genuine but I'm sorry I'm going to have to leave this thread now before I start to cry into my cornflakes :D

On a serious note PLEASE do not f888ing kill yourself, pack your tools away and WAIT for your friends:thumbsup
 
It is absolutely a geniune post. I have also noticed a couple of fundamental issues with the wiring (which admittedly was done in a rush) Notifiable even if it swapping like for like units? It will still be PAT tested and certified but wasnt aware that i had to notify anyone.
 
Frankie79 said:
Awesome thanks for the advice. Once it was cabled up i was going to have a sparky test it. If no-one on this forum is going to give me the advice I need then I will obtain it elsewhere. Rest assured i wont be cabling it up until I am 100% sure it's correct.
1shortcct, i dont usually sit on forums as i generally have much better things to do with my time.
APelectrical - your right...your bad.


Frankie hope you dont take it to heart, but the information you require is out there ie in the box - google etc... if you come on a forum with pictures like that what do you expect.
Click to expand...
 
Frankie79 said:
It is absolutely a geniune post. I have also noticed a couple of fundamental issues with the wiring (which admittedly was done in a rush) Notifiable even if it swapping like for like units? It will still be PAT tested and certified but wasnt aware that i had to notify anyone.
Click to expand...

Right well seeing this post I absolutely believe it's genuine. Why do I now think that? because Part P of the Building regulations is scarcely known amongst the public so it is not your fault for not knowing this.

The work you are doing in your eyes is like for like but it is not. You are changing many of the characteristics of that part of the installation.

I can tell you something else about that picture too. IF you only have a 2.5mm cable going to your socket then that 32A breaker that you have drawn lines to could potentially create a fire hazard.

We can sit here all night and discuss what's wrong with it but you really do need to stop. Whoever you get in to complete this work for you still needs to go through the appropriate channels of informing the LABC. If you do not do this and there comes a time where you want to sell your house then you're going to end up shelling out money on reports because it will be a requirement requested by the solicitors.
 
Agreed that my picture was rough. I was trying to get it done quickly due to the time of night. the rcd came with no instructions which is obviously because its usually qualified sparkys that install them. I will continue to read up on the fundamentals and see if i can figure it out whilst waiting for one of my mates to do it. I was just looking for a quick answer.

Dillb...its called the sun and i hope it stays for a while yet ;)
1shortcircuit -" if i had just 1 wrong then maybe...." lmao. I wonder why someone that knew exactly what they were doing would be posting on a forum.
[h=3]forumsplural of fo·rum (Noun)[/h]
Noun:

  1. A meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.
  2. An Internet message board.
 
Frankie79 said:
It is absolutely a geniune post. I have also noticed a couple of fundamental issues with the wiring (which admittedly was done in a rush) Notifiable even if it swapping like for like units? It will still be PAT tested and certified but wasnt aware that i had to notify anyone.
Click to expand...
It's not like for like, for a start this unit has RCD protection and diffident over-current protection devices. You need to ascertain that the original cabling will allow the MCB's to operate within the specified time frames.

A neutral to earth fault will not blow a fuse or MCB but it will immediately trip an RCD, hence the reason for testing first. Also what devce is protecting the incoming cable on the supply side? If there's and RCD/RCBO then there will be discrimination issues.

It looks to be a simple enough job which a decent spark shouldn't charge too much for, you will also satisfy the legal requirements and also your insurance company would be more likely to pay out on any future claims if anything unforeseen should happen.

Don't worry about the natives, it's late and they're tired... :lol:
 
Well i dont know where to start.... The government decided that too many people were getting killed by something as innocent as a couple of wires and a bit of volts. So our representatives in parliament brought in a law to try and curb the carnage.
Although very poorly managed, its intentions were more than honerable.

I would say that you are at the forefront of what the laws, that exist, are trying to prevent.

So your first post on a forum like this is to post up an illegal activity which will blow up in your face (and more in-conveniently) put your house in darkness and scare your neighbours.

What do you really expect from this forum ?
 
Simply put....if the gear wasn't available for joe public to buy then threads like these wouldn't surface so often.

Many things were wrong with the pic (eg the copper bar (busbar) goes across the spare holes at the bottom to name one) but i blame the powers that be for a half a$$ed attempt at electrical safety (anyone can buy electrical gear) more than the OP tbh.
 
Strima - thanks for the advice.
plugsandsparks: Its ok, don't start. Hold that thought and just keep it too yourself. But keep up the good work and rest assured whatever you post next wont be read as by the time u read this i have signed out and taken the couple of good bits of advice with me and already forgotten everything else.
Oh and I already posted what the definition of a forum is, thats what i was expecting but clearly thats 2 things i have wrong tonight. At least now i am more knowledgeable.
 
Don't worry about the natives, it's late and they're tired...
Click to expand...

...... and the cauldron is on the boil, I've just had a skin full, the kebab house is closed and I'm looking for something to eat ! :punk:


But keep up the good work and rest assured whatever you post next wont be read as by the time u read this i have signed out and taken the couple of good bits of advice with me and already forgotten everything else.
Click to expand...

Looks like Frankie goes to Hollywood then ?
 
Quite frankly the OP has asked a question....Why?...because he's not sure. Unlike many threads on here he's not claiming to be a 'qualified electrician' and then posting a muppet question.
And unlike most on here I dont have a problem with DIY and materials being available to all.....most who do are a bunch of hypocites in my experience,it comes down to a 'not in my back yard' mentality.
All the OP needed telling was that he is out of his depth,and the dangers and legality of what he is doing. There was no need for the abuse and sarcasm, with the notable exception of 1shortcircuits input and a few others , reading through this thread I'm almost ashamed to be associated with this forum.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
As an after note.
In case your query is genuine.

I assume that you only hvae one piece of 2.5mm² cable going to your socket? If so that 32amp MCB is not the correct one. It can not be more than 20amp.

I suggest you take the whole thing back to where you bought it and have a registered electrician supply, install, test, certify and notify the correct materials.
 
wirepuller said:
Quite frankly the OP has asked a question....Why?...because he's not sure. Unlike many threads on here he's not claiming to be a 'qualified electrician' and then posting a muppet question.
And unlike most on here I dont have a problem with DIY and materials being available to all.....most who do are a bunch of hypocites in my experience,it comes down to a 'not in my back yard' mentality.
All the OP needed telling was that he is out of his depth,and the dangers and legality of what he is doing. There was no need for the abuse and sarcasm, with the notable exception of 1shortcircuits input and a few others , reading through this thread I'm almost ashamed to be associated with this forum.
Click to expand...

The guy didn't help himself did he, and why are you almost ashamed of other peoples views on this forum, I dont come on here to conform with everyone else's opinion, theres not many forums where people don't get jabbed for posting silly questions electrical or not.
 
wirepuller said:
Quite frankly the OP has asked a question....Why?...because he's not sure. Unlike many threads on here he's not claiming to be a 'qualified electrician' and then posting a muppet question.
And unlike most on here I dont have a problem with DIY and materials being available to all.....most who do are a bunch of hypocites in my experience,it comes down to a 'not in my back yard' mentality.
All the OP needed telling was that he is out of his depth,and the dangers and legality of what he is doing. There was no need for the abuse and sarcasm, with the notable exception of 1shortcircuits input and a few others , reading through this thread I'm almost ashamed to be associated with this forum.
Click to expand...

Nail on head.

Some of the comments I've been reading have made me cringe a bit and I think it's worth remembering that the "Big Orange Sheds" don't just sell electrical stuff to DIYers ... they also sell them plumbing stuff too, and I wonder how many sparks have bought some bits of pipe & fittings from there & attempted to install a bathroom suite, kitchen sink or an extra central heating radiator for themselves without really knowing what they are doing.
 
but you're not generally liable to kill yourself getting a leaky joint in a bath tap
 
I think that the only thing you can really liken electrical work to is gas. I realise that as a % of the population, not many people are electrocuted, particularly with the introduction of RCD's, but there are a great many electrical fires each and every year. We have become very complacent as a nation regarding the dangers of incorrect or poor electrical work, so it's no wonder many people think that it's simply a matter of wacking a few wires in and if it works "job's a goodun".
 
Totaly agree some of the comments where more than alittle sharp and out of order.

The main problem with the original pic was the busbar connection as it was drawn connected over the L & N of the RCD (although it was drawn in blue OP did state it was the busbar and not neutral cables).

Regarding the big orange shed etc, i still (and always will) have issue's with them being allowed to sell equipment to the DIYer encourageing them to play around with the most dangerous thing we use every day. I also have issue's with them selling plumbing gear in truth (and yes i have bought from there on a sunday when wholesalers are shut making me a hypocrit)..........Try and buy a gas fitting in there though and your stuffed as they dont sell them (last time i checked) due to safety issue's...go figure.
 
The guy asked if it was correct and was told "no" and was reminded of the law.

He then proceeded to complain that he was not getting a spoon fed answer from this forum. That when i added my penneth.

I dont have a problem with DIYers blowing themselves up. I dont do much domestic anyway.

But are we really here to assist absolute novices to change a CU in a garage, you cannot be serious.
 
We can't have it both ways can we.

One minute giving advice and suggestions then the next moaning that all the Electrical Trainee and DIYers are taking all the domestic work from us.

I'll just stick with moaning about the latter I think.
 
And to be fair to all the members who were a little sarcy, it is getting far too common on here to read the words, "my mate who is qualified is going to come and test it".
If (and I mean if) these people have mates who are qualified electricians willing to come out to test and notify work, then surely they would be just as happy to spend an extra 20 minutes making the connections correctly and safely.
 
telectrix said:
but you're not generally liable to kill yourself getting a leaky joint in a bath tap
Click to expand...

I agree with you totally here Tel :)

When I made my post, I was in a rush to attend an appointment with my GP & in my haste I didn't quite finish it before posting it.

Had I done so, I would have tried to qualify it with words to the effect that had an electrician bought his plumbing bits from a "shed" then asked on a plumbing forum what to do with them, would he have been happy to receive the amount of ridicule and abuse that some of us her have dished out?
 
As some people have said it,s not the fault of the diy stores for selling the kit,lets be honest I bet we have all been into one for something when we have been stuck late at night or on a sunday and been greatfull for the fact that they were open!The problem seems to be that they make it all sound so easy to carry out the work and that coupled with people not knowing their own limitations is where the problem lies.There has been various comparisons made with other jobs gas fitting, mechanics etc and people say that they would not touch gas or do the brakes on their own car,well that is about knowing your limitations.I have installed my own gas cooker and moved gas pipes at home,however I have the test gear and was taught gas fitting by my father,I know its safe and tested and feel confident doing it,likewise I carry out all my own car repairs,brakes and steering included,again I did a nightschool course on vehicle maintenance.TBH I have seen so much dodgy work come out of garages that I feel safer doing my own work,at least I know its right and that the wheels are not going to come off at 90mph,that said I appreciate that not everyone is like me or had my upbringing.THE KEY HERE IS FOR EVERYONE TO KNOW THEIR LIMITATIONS!excuse capitals but I wanted that bit to stand out.
 
phil d said:
As some people have said it,s not the fault of the diy stores for selling the kit,lets be honest I bet we have all been into one for something when we have been stuck late at night or on a sunday and been greatfull for the fact that they were open!The problem seems to be that they make it all sound so easy to carry out the work and that coupled with people not knowing their own limitations is where the problem lies.There has been various comparisons made with other jobs gas fitting, mechanics etc and people say that they would not touch gas or do the brakes on their own car,well that is about knowing your limitations.I have installed my own gas cooker and moved gas pipes at home,however I have the test gear and was taught gas fitting by my father,I know its safe and tested and feel confident doing it,likewise I carry out all my own car repairs,brakes and steering included,again I did a nightschool course on vehicle maintenance.TBH I have seen so much dodgy work come out of garages that I feel safer doing my own work,at least I know its right and that the wheels are not going to come off at 90mph,that said I appreciate that not everyone is like me or had my upbringing.THE KEY HERE IS FOR EVERYONE TO KNOW THEIR LIMITATIONS!excuse capitals but I wanted that bit to stand out.
Click to expand...

I am in full agreement with you. :)

It looks to me like you & I have had a very similar upbringing.
 
phil d said:
wasn,t just me that grew up with tools then,got my first drill at 9 black and decker with a 3/8ths chuck,wanted a 1/2 inch really lol
Click to expand...

Aye well, I was soldering bits of wire & metal at 8 years old - with a soldering iron heated of Mum's gas stove & got a metal turning lathe at 11years old & built my first working steam engine when I was 13.

I really enjoyed Model Engineering, but it went sour after I started my apprenticeship as a Precision Engineer at 15. There wasn't any fun in working lathes etc. all day & then doing the same at home after work, so I packed it in & joined a Rock 'n' Roll band working in the clubs & did some casual work on the fairgrounds (Dodgems & Waltzer)

Now I'm retired, I've been looking on e-bay for a decent lathe as I'm thinking about getting back into Model Engineering. I've got two steam locos that I started to build all those years ago & I'm thinking it would be nice to finish them.
 
Frankie79 said:
Hi all,

I am looking to replace a very old and rusty RCD unit with a modern day unit. The old unit is different to the new one and I would like to be 100% sure i have the wiring correct. The situation i need explained is this:

1. I have the mains coming into the unit
2. I have a 2 way socket which needs to connected.

I have attached a picture of the unit with some crude lines on it. To clarify the picture what i have is the following.

1. The mains live (red line at the bottom) connects to the bottom next the the Neutral
2. The mains neutral and earth go up the the bars at the top
3. The 4 way copper bar bridges the neutrals across the top. (Blue)
4. The 2 way socket mains live (red line coming in from the right) connects to the 32A unit
5. The 2 way socket neutral and earth connect to their respective bars at the top.

Can someone tell me if this is correct? As i said all i am doing is replacing the old unit as it was way past it's useable life.

Thanks,

Frank
Click to expand...

No it's incorrect.
The four way copper bar bridges the lives across the bottom. Will leave you with one spare way for another MCB if required in the future.
The live for the socket-outlet should be connected at the top.
As some have pointed out, the 32A MCB is not correct if the socket-outlet is fed using 2.5mm² cable, should be 16A or at most 20A.
Oh by the way, as it's a replacement, there is no requirement for notification.
 
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