Solar panels - no brainer for us?

[Spinball]

Hope it's ok to post in here when I'm not an electrician. My Dad (now retired) served his apprenticeship with the MEB and ran a TV repair and rental shop for decades. That's about as close to an electrical qualification I'll get.
Anyhow, I was brought here by Google when I was searching for information on thermodynamic systems.

We have a large house from which we run an IT business. We also have a small indoor pool. Our combined gas and electric bills are in the region of £450 a month and we want to get these down.
Two of us are at working from home during the day and the heating has been on 24/7 since October.
I want to find some solutions to bring our energy bills down.
We live on the Birmingham/Worcestershire border with a large, south facing expanse of roof. We have no intention of moving house again.

My neighbour got MSC accreditation last year and he is quoting us for installing 4x250 watt solar panels. Getting solar panels seems to be somewhat of a no-brainer given that we use a fair amount of electricity during the day.
Do you agree?

With regards to heating and hot water, I would ideally like to significantly reduce our gas bill.
We have two old Mexico boilers which we are going to almost certainly replace with two Worcester Bosch 30is.
But what configuration of plumbing will be influenced by whether we have a solar hot water system as well. The hot water tank is a few feet from the south facing roof.
I've read up a bit and until MSC approve heat pump installs and there are some real world figures in, I think it might be wiser to wait on the thermodynamic solution.
But I'm not sure. If we could get a system which heated the pool at least, I would feel a lot less guilty.

Any advice welcome.
Thanks

 

[whinmoor]

Solar panels are a great idea in most cases - especially if people are at home in the daytime and can use the free solar electricity. Why install only 4 panels if you have a "large" south facing roof? Do you have any shading nearby? Or do you want to leave space for a solar thermal system? Or are their financial constraints?

 

[Spinball]

Apologies, I mistyped. 16 x 250 watt panels to produce 4Kw. There is space on the roof for lots of panels no problem.
There are some big trees off to the south east but they are a fair way off.
I have just taken a panorama photo out of the skylight in the middle of the roof to show you.

This view is about 10 degrees west of south. SSW.

 

[whinmoor]

Ok - that makes a lot more sense. Any shading? Chimneys or trees in the area?

 

[Spinball]

The trees over to the south east are pretty tall, but that's about it.
The financial constraints are that we are not flush by any means, so every expense has to be justified.
But with our combined energy bill being in the region of £450 a month, we *have* to do something. I think replacing the boilers should make a big difference. Going for at least a 10% improvement in efficiency there.

 

[whinmoor]

Looks like a great site for solar panels. Definitely worth getting surveys and quotations to see if the finances stack up.

 

[Spinball]

Thanks. 16p per KWh now, right?

 

[whinmoor]

Did your neighbour install panels on his own house? If so, that might cause minor complications in a rural area with few houses in the vicinity. Are you in a Conservation Area? If so, that may also be an issue but one which can usually be overcome.

 

[whinmoor]

The current FiT rate is 15.44p per kWh plus 4.5p for exporting half of it. You could investigate the possibility of getting an Immersun device to re-direct your surplus solar electricity to heat your water via your immersion heater (assuming you have a cylinder).

 

[whinmoor]

Oh - you also need to get a D rating on your Energy Performance Certificate to get the 15.44p which might be a problem for a large, old property in a rural area, especially if it's not on the mains gas system. This is probably the first thing to check. The good news is that the solar panels can be included in the EPC so if your home is now a Band E, the PV may increase the score enough to make it a Band D.

 

[Spinball]

Thanks for your replies.

Did your neighbour install panels on his own house? If so, that might cause minor complications in a rural area with few houses in the vicinity. Are you in a Conservation Area? If so, that may also be an issue but one which can usually be overcome.

Yes he put 16 panels on his house. He showed the system to me this morning actually.
The area is not rural. Semi-rural at best. We're lucky enough to have a paddock beyond the back garden which might give the impression that we live out in the country, but we really don't.

The current FiT rate is 15.44p per kWh plus 4.5p for exporting half of it. You could investigate the possibility of getting an Immersun device to re-direct your surplus solar electricity to heat your water via your immersion heater (assuming you have a cylinder).

Ok, I will look into that, thanks.

Oh - you also need to get a D rating on your Energy Performance Certificate to get the 15.44p which might be a problem for a large, old property in a rural area, especially if it's not on the mains gas system. This is probably the first thing to check. The good news is that the solar panels can be included in the EPC so if your home is now a Band E, the PV may increase the score enough to make it a Band D.

The house has 5 bedrooms and was built in the 70's and is on mains gas. According to the sales brochure (which I still have from when we bought the house in 2011), it has energy efficiency and environmental impact ratings of E with D potential.

 

[Worcester]

Solar PV no brainer if you are working at home, also do not nescessarily have to be fitted to roof of house, we have done garages, workshops, groundmounts etc. (The edge of the paddock might do )
Apart from finance limitations, what's keeping you down to 4kWp? (We've done 7kWp, 10 kWp, 15 kWp and 50kWp domestic installations)
Also consider something like the immersun - allows you to maximise you use of generated power.
As you are on gas, then consider updating to a modern condensing bolier.
Change your lighting to LED, add in PIR's in the office and kids rooms
Also add in solar thermal for hot water / pool heating

 

[Spinball]

As I understand it we're not allowed to have more than 4KW of panels because we only have single phase electricity to the property.
I had thought about putting the panels in the paddock but we will have ponies in there eventually, so positioning would not be completely straightforward. Plus having high voltage cables running under the lawn isn't ideal.
We're almost certainly having two Worcester 30 CDi boilers put in.
I have already written articles on LED lights (Replacing light bulbs with LEDs - LED lightbulb information | AVForums.com - UK Online) and have tested a few different types. LEDs are still somewhat expensive and in limited designs for most consumers. For example I wanted three B15 LEDs to fit in our lobby, but I had to get tungsten ones as no LEDs were available. But the £50 Philips 12watt B22 which we put in the lamp on the drive (on a light sensor) has lasted through two winters no problem. I'm a big fan of LED lighting.
PIRs though. Have thought about that but don;t fancy putting actual PIRs in the rooms. Would be better if there was a light fitting (or bulb) with a motion sensor built into it.
Will solar thermal produce enough hot water to run a 4m x 8m pool, 4 bathrooms and 38 radiators?

 

[Worcester]

As I understand it we're not allowed to have more than 4KW of panels because we only have single phase electricity to the property.

Not true, need to approach DNO first - your chosen installer should know this

I had thought about putting the panels in the paddock but we will have ponies in there eventually, so positioning would not be completely straightforward. Plus having high voltage cables running under the lawn isn't ideal.

Fence the are off and SWA buried to the correct depth, no problem, do it all the time.

Will solar thermal produce enough hot water to run a 4m x 8m pool, 4 bathrooms and 38 radiators?

A big enough one can do Live solar hot water data display - 4 Zone Central Heating System, Pool and Hot Water or Solar Hot Water and Central Heating Online System - Bath UK

We can supply B15 LED's Golf Ball? Candle? ..

 

[Spinball]

We don't have an immersion heater. Just gas boilers heating the water as well as the radiators and the pool.
Can Worcester 30 CDi boilers be connected to an Immersun in any way so it can supplement their output?
If you sell LEDs, you should list them on your website. Couldn't find a small enough golf ball B15 LED for love nor money.

 

[Earthstore]

As you are in business, you will understand that if you borrow the money at a decent rate and what you spend it on earns you more than the repayments then it is a win win situation.
PV will do this for you, IE 10% return borrow at 4%, that leaves you 6% to pay of the capital, FIT is index linked, and there is only one way energy prices are going, so if the sums add up in year one then they will only improve for you year on year.

Due to your outlined circumstances get the largest system that money/space/ and the DNO(people that own the grid) will allow.

As to the heating, have you looked at Airsource heatpumps? Installed and designed correctly they do work really well, thermodynamics are still an unknown, most of the industry is skeptical about there performance claims, but there again there are many that say that ground/airsource heatpumps do not work, which I can assure you is totally incorrect, I have seen many that have been running for long periods now and are out performing anything else in the market place, they have not all been without their initial problems though, but were install/design faults.

You do have to invest to save, if the government back their Greendeal scheme, (pay the loan off with the savings even with rates as high as 7-10%, you can certainly do it better yourself with the correct advice.

I hope this helps.

 

[SolarCity]

Out of interest, where exactly are you?

 

[Spinball]

Out of interest, where exactly are you?

Barnt Green

 

[SolarCity]

Nice area. Be did an install on Cofton Church Lane last year.

 

[High Tower]

Very nice area I know it well, I've worked in cofton too, there's a small wholesaler and contractors called ALP I think, one of our main competition on a particular national contract but I don't mind as they are good lads!!

 

[Spinball]

We put an offer in on a house on cofton church lane. Ended up here instead.
I really would like some options on the way forward where our energy bills are significantly reduced. The kids are going to be here for another 7 years before we pack them off to uni. So that's a warm house for 4 for that long.

If energy bills are going to rise as we're hearing in the news then I want to reduce the current energy bill by a significant amount. Like 80%?

How much would it cost us to do that?

 

[Spinball]

I've spoken with nPower and our bills are £4.50 - £5 a day for electricity and £12 - £13 a day for gas.
*Got* to bring these bills down. The gas bill is the one of most concern, obviously.

 

[Earthstore]

If you have a decent PV system, you could use the FIT's to go towards your gas bill, therefore reducing your "energy outgoings", haven't re-read the whole post, but insulate, insulate, insulate, if you are not letting the heat out, then you will need to put less in, or buy everyone a woolly jumper for Christmas and turn the heating down a bit...

 

[Spinball]

Are there organisations who visit to assess the insulation in your house? Is there a grant to improve it?
[Edit: found it - Home ]

 

[Eco Deal]

Why dont you reduce your gas bill via the green deal ?

 

[Spinball]

Why dont you reduce your gas bill via the green deal ?

That's like a 7% loan, right? You can get a 5.1% loan from Derbyshire Building Society.

 

[sedgy34]

You could have a tank fitted and have an Immersun, you may want to upgrade to a mor efficient boiler too
we can put together a plan throughout your house to make considerable savings oh we are gas safe registered too

 

[sedgy34]

Are there organisations who visit to assess the insulation in your house? Is there a grant to improve it?
[Edit: found it - Home ]

We can do you a green deal assessment also and see if you qualify for some Eco funding you may get your boiler done free

 

[Spinball]

We can do you a green deal assessment also and see if you qualify for some Eco funding you may get your boiler done free

Well we could get a loan no problem, so I think that would be preferable to getting the 7% green deal.
But we need to replace both of the old Mexico boilers and that's a £5k+ expense. If we can get that paid for for free, that would be astonishingly good news.

 

[puddy]

On my house we have 12 panels with 2.5kw system and my electric bill gone down by 30%. Our direct debit was £65 and we have reduced it to £52 and if we have a good summer this year we should be £50 to £100 in credit. Basically the last 2 price increase last have been absorbed and the cost per month has gone down by £15.

If I had paid for the system in full we would have got £1263.77 generated 2703.249kw from the feed in tariff last year but we did not have the funds to pay for it, we went with homesun so they get that money

Because we have paid our mortgage off I didn’t want to take out a secured home just to pay for solar panels and I don’t like the idea of the green deal at 7% and I don’t think it can save me anymore money.

We are on oil and have a boilermate 2000 it save money because it heat up the water while we are using it The boilermate has an emergency switch which allow us to run the heating or water or both on electric so I was thinking of turn off my oil boiler in the summer switch the boilermate to emergency to hot water on a bright summers day to see if we could save on our oil bill. We had a Bosch Worcester Greenstar wall mounted 18/25 boiler fitted 18 months ago and use 1000 litres of oil every 10 months but I want it to last 12 months.

If you want to save more money on your electric bill switch to Economy 10

 

[Spinball]

We can do you a green deal assessment also and see if you qualify for some Eco funding you may get your boiler done free

I spoke to the Energy Saving Trust today.
To get assistance with either insulation or boilers, you need to be in particular need of financial help, and we're not drawing any benefits so we don't qualify. Probably not by a long way.
Also the scheme is quite complicated and not a particularly good deal at between 6 and 8% interest.
I'll be giving it a miss, I think.

 

[jason121]

Have you looked at ASHP or Bio mass using help from the RHI.
Funding is over 7 years and mounts up to around £10,000

 

[sedgy34]

you will get something based on an assessment, you could do green deal too on the rest dont forget the repayments are taken from the savings produced after the works and there is no upfront cost to yourself and the Green deal is on you meter not you personally like a loan of say 5%
you should go with solar pv no matter what and ditch the solar thermal idea which isnt worth the cost compared to the savings. unless the RHI implement the FIT on it

 

[Eco Deal]

Well if you had EWI as a primary measure then a boiler would get ECO funds too .

the green deal is also tied to the electric meter and not you plus there is a LOSE credit check so it helps alot of people out....

what walls have you got ?

if they are soild then you could get eco funding towards the wall then the boiler and other measures become avilable under ECO too.

this includes

Solid Wall Insulation	IWI (solid): pre 1967 England & Wales, pre 1965 Scotland	IWI_solid_pre1967_E&W_pre1965_S	E	E
IWI (solid): from 1967 E&W, from 1965 Scotland	IWI_solid_from1967_E&W_from1965_S	E	E
EWI (solid): pre 1967 E&W, pre 1965 Scotland	EWI_solid_pre1967_E&W_pre1965_S	E	E
EWI (solid): from 1967 E&W, from 1965 Scotland	EWI_solid_from1967_E&W_from1965_S	E	E
Internal non-solid Brick Wall Insulation	IWI_non_solid	E	E
External non-solid Brick Wall Insulation	EWI_non_solid	E	E
Park Home External Wall Insulation	Park Home External Wall Insulation	EWI_Parkhomes	E	E
Cavity Wall Insulation	Standard CWI	Standard_CWI	S	E
Hard To Treat Cavity Wall Insulation	HTTC: Cavity wall insulation solution	HTTC_CWI_solution	E	E
HTTC: Solid wall insulation solution	HTTC_SWI_solution	E	E
Loft Insulation	Loft Insulation Ceiling Level Virgin	LI_ceiling_level_virgin	S	E
Loft Insulation Ceiling Level Topup	LI_ceiling_level_topup	S	E
Loft Insulation Rafter	LI_rafter	S	E
Room in Roof Insulation	RIRI	S	E
Other Insulation	Flat Roof Insulation	FRI	S	E
Under Floor Insulation	UFI	S	E
Hot Water Cylinder Insulation	HWCI	S	E
Pipework Insulation	PWI	S	E
Draught Proofing	DP	S	E
Window Glazing	WG	S	E
Passageway Walk-through Doors	PWWD	S	E
Boiler	Boiler: Replacement qualifying boiler	QB_Replacement
Boiler: Repair qualifying boiler 1 year warranty	QB_Repair_1_year
Boiler: Repair qualifying boiler 2 year warranty	QB_Repair_2_year
Boiler: Installation of a Non qualifying boiler	Non_QB_installation

 

[Eco Deal]

ECO funding is extra help toward the green deal so say the EWI was 10k eco funds might give you say 5k (depending on the savings)

so you could either pay the other 5k cash or pay it on the green deal.

 

[Spinball]

you will get something based on an assessment

I read this page
Green Deal and Energy Company Obligation (ECO) - Grants and savings - Energy Saving Trust
phoned the number on it and was given the clear impression that grants were available only to people drawing particular benefits.
If any grant is means tested, we would be considered having enough means to pay for it ourselves.
If it's a grant available to everyone, then why isn't that clear on the site? Because I intend to get the cavity walls filled (if they are not already) and get solar PV unless it's unexpectedly expensive. But I also need to address the gas bill and rather than shove two new boilers in there directly heating the hot water, radiators and pool, I also want to find a way to reduce our gas bill directly (in addition to ensuring we have sufficient insulation). £12-£13 a day is a lot for gas. And most of that is on heating.

If solar thermal is not a great idea until there is some kind of FIT equivalent then I'll likely wait for that to happen, but I do want to plan for that with whatever solution we put in in the mean time.

I do like the idea of having mains pressure, clean hot water. If it financially makes sense then a thermal store might be the way to go. There is very little information on the net about them, though. A lot seem to be in the low hundreds of litres.

 

[sedgy34]

there are a few things you can do rather than solar thermal i would have underfloor heatiing this is set at 50deg and more efficient than rads blasting out 80deg that will cut your gas bill down
we do UFH too

 

[lancselec]

have you looked at the baxi ecogen boiler a micro chp boiler that produces 1kw of export electricity which falls within FIT so you can get a bit more while the boiler running they are expensive but depending on your usage could give a payback.

 

[Worcester]

@lancselec - have you seen the price for those units!!!!

I couldn't make the ROI stack up even with the FiT

 

[lancselec]

did say they were expensive worcester !

4000 hrs p.a. is breakeven i think

 

[Spinball]

there are a few things you can do rather than solar thermal i would have underfloor heatiing this is set at 50deg and more efficient than rads blasting out 80deg that will cut your gas bill down
we do UFH too

If you want to suggest to the wife that we rip up all the floors in the house, can I video it?

 

[jason121]

dont have to. retro fit underfloor heating by laying on existing floor.only problem will rise the floor by about 30mm

 

[Spinball]

dont have to. retro fit underfloor heating by laying on existing floor.only problem will rise the floor by about 30mm

Underfloor heating is not an option. Too much expense and disruption. The former owners put down really nice floor tiles and I have no intention of digging them up.

 

[Eco Deal]

Spin ball

ECO funding is for

1. People on low incomes HHCRO
2. hard to treat properties CERO
3. low income areas CSCO

so no its not just for people on benefits

 

[sedgy34]

That's what I've Been trying to get across

 

[Spinball]

I appreciate the help. Is there some clear information anywhere which lets people know how they qualify? If the government want people to take advantage of these initiatives, they aren't exactly making it easy for people to find them.

 

[Earthstore]

They do not make it easy for anything to do with renewables, I wonder why?

 

[Gary K]

They do not make it easy for anything to do with renewables, I wonder why?

When the allocated fund do not get used, it gets redirected to another project like paying bonus's!!!

 

[sedgy34]

We have direct access to funding through a utility company so if you have any projects let me know

 

[SRE]

I appreciate the help. Is there some clear information anywhere which lets people know how they qualify? If the government want people to take advantage of these initiatives, they aren't exactly making it easy for people to find them.

That's because most people don't qualify for ECO. I have yet to see a "normal" house & customer who qualifies for ECO. I talk with lots of Green Deal Assessors and work on a countywide Green Deal group and none of us have found funding for "normal" customers yet. I've heard from several sources that there's still some funding via CERT available for cavity & loft but it's got to be installed by the end of March so you'd need to get your skates on. It's not easy to find - I'd suggest you look for a list of insulation installers in your area and ring each of them to see if they have any funds left.

ECO is still a long way from being resolved I know of one installer who generated 1200 jobs for ECO, a substantial amount of them were solid wall jobs in a low income area, the utility who had requested the work couldn't work with the jobs provided because even in a low income area they weren't skint enough to make ECO worthwhile for the utility, the goal posts had moved within a fortnight of requesting the work from the installer. ECO is going to deal with social housing primarily, easy target - lots of houses one load of permission from one landlord and economies of scale.

My understanding of underfloor heating was that it was more efficient as it takes a hot water feed of 35 degrees. However, I've recently been on air source heat pump training and the software used for MCS certification shows absolutely no difference between underfloor and radiators. I've queried the figures but it looks as though you wouldn't gain from ufh even if you were prepared to retrofit.