Different Testing Courses

[Engineer54]

I bet they can, but does it really matter in the real world whether an electrician works out a sum on paper or by calculator???

Does it f**k!

Well no matter what you think, it took years to allow calculators into an exam room. So it must of mattered, and to have been seen to make a difference to those that make the rules!! It certainly cuts down time spent in calculating long hand on paper!!

 

[D Skelton]

Well no matter what you think, it took years to allow calculators into an exam room. So it must of mattered, and to have been seen to make a difference to those that make the rules!!

It's called 'old habits die hard' mate. Nothing more. You wanna learn to be a mathematician? Learn the sums on paper. You wanna be an electrician? Learn why we need the sums we need, and then work them out however you bloody well like! Makes sod all difference.

It certainly cuts down time spent in calculating long hand on paper!!

And here we get to the crux of the matter; time. That is all. I can add, subtract, multiply and divide on calculator and on paper, does that make me any better at maths than someone who can only use a calculator to do those sums? No. If I choose however to stick with paper, because I can, and they use a calculator, who is now more effective at maths? Them.

Pencil and paper got replaced by the computer a few years back. Get over it mate lol

 

[Badged01]

... standards are not the same now, as they were in the past, and i stand by that 100% as being fact!!

Totally agree 100% from my experience!

When I did my engineering degree at Manchester University in the early 80's I was sponsored full-time, studied full-time and worked my pants off to ensure I got it. I wasnt partying hard as my future employment depended upon it. Although not the sharpest knife in the draw I got my degree which was "exam" based and hard work to achieve. You knew your stuff or you didn't -- but it wasn't a 1st, those were reserved for the really gifted students!

Wind on 20 yrs and I'm again back at university. This time I'm studying part-time (in my own time) whilst balancing work, outside life, paying a mortgage, raising a family etc ... I'm struggling so I deliberately do the bare minimum work to get thro' : if it says a minimum of 1,000 words they get 1,000 words, if they recommend 10 hrs study I spend 8 hrs!! I do the exam and expect to really scrape thro' with the lowest pass mark -- what, I get a distinction!! And I know for a fact my brain power hadn't increased from my earlier university days.

Wind on a couple of more years and I'm now recruiting/selecting then next generation of high flying engineers to lead the business forward. Got a 1st class degree from an 'established' university then your foots in the door to be considered for an interview, anything less wasn't acceptable! (Screening the candidates it seemed everyone had a 1st or 2:1 class degree from whatever "university" they attended.) What became crucial now was not the educational standard, everyone had the same so you couldn't differentiate on that alone, but what they did outside 'education'!.

So yes, from my personal experience I do believe standards in education have gone down ..... but in this politically correct society where everyone has to suceed and no-one can fail what should we expect?

 

[Badged01]

Well no matter what you think, it took years to allow calculators into an exam room. So it must of mattered, and to have been seen to make a difference to those that make the rules!! It certainly cuts down time spent in calculating long hand on paper!!

I loved it when they allowed calculators to be used -- big "brick" things back in the 70's but I didn't like using the slide ruler!

 

[Badged01]

Well no matter what you think, it took years to allow calculators into an exam room. So it must of mattered, and to have been seen to make a difference to those that make the rules!! It certainly cuts down time spent in calculating long hand on paper!!

I loved it when they allowed calculators to be used -- big "brick" things back in the 70's but I didn't like using the slide ruler!

 

[Badged01]

.... You wanna learn to be a mathematician? Learn the sums on paper. You wanna be an electrician? Learn why we need the sums we need, and then work them out however you bloody well like! Makes sod all difference.

Fair enough point!

 

[Engineer54]

Totally agree 100% from my experience!

When I did my engineering degree at Manchester University in the early 80's I was sponsored full-time, studied full-time and worked my pants off to ensure I got it. I wasnt partying hard as my future employment depended upon it. Although not the sharpest knife in the draw I got my degree which was "exam" based and hard work to achieve. You knew your stuff or you didn't -- but it wasn't a 1st, those were reserved for the really gifted students!

Wind on 20 yrs and I'm again back at university. This time I'm studying part-time (in my own time) whilst balancing work, outside life, paying a mortgage, raising a family etc ... I'm struggling so I deliberately do the bare minimum work to get thro' : if it says a minimum of 1,000 words they get 1,000 words, if they recommend 10 hrs study I spend 8 hrs!! I do the exam and expect to really scrape thro' with the lowest pass mark -- what, I get a distinction!! And I know for a fact my brain power hadn't increased from my earlier university days.

Wind on a couple of more years and I'm now recruiting/selecting then next generation of high flying engineers to lead the business forward. Got a 1st class degree from an 'established' university then your foots in the door to be considered for an interview, anything less wasn't acceptable! (Screening the candidates it seemed everyone had a 1st or 2:1 class degree from whatever "university" they attended.) What became crucial now was not the educational standard, everyone had the same so you couldn't differentiate on that alone, but what they did outside 'education'!.

So yes, from my personal experience I do believe standards in education have gone down ..... but in this politically correct society where everyone has to suceed and no-one can fail what should we expect?

I too had all of my trade & engineering education sponsored by my original indentured employer, a little over 7 years of it in total. But in those days, it was mostly the employers that paid for higher education courses of it's work force, rather than the now more common students themselves.

Well, i know exactly what you're talking about here, as would anyone else of those era's. Now if you know things changed that much in 20 years, what do you think the changes are like after 30,40 years??? Now try and convince Mr Skelton, things have changed significantlyin ALL things educational!! lol!!!

 

[wozz]

You still need the same level of knowledge to pass the 2394 and 2395 together as you did the 2391, the national average pass percentage hasn't changed either. All that has changed in reality is that it has become more expensive and there are now slightly shorter, but more assessments of equal difficulty to complete.

How do you find this sort of thing out? I always thought the 2391 had low pass rate and knew quite a few who took a few attempts or who gave up. On the other hand I don't know anyone who has failed the latter. I know that means nothing was just after some stats to compare if that info is avaliable.

 

[Engineer54]

It's called 'old habits die hard' mate. Nothing more. You wanna learn to be a mathematician? Learn the sums on paper. You wanna be an electrician? Learn why we need the sums we need, and then work them out however you bloody well like! Makes sod all difference.

That's just pure Crud!!


And here we get to the crux of the matter; time. That is all. I can add, subtract, multiply and divide on calculator and on paper, does that make me any better at maths than someone who can only use a calculator to do those sums? No. If I choose however to stick with paper, because I can, and they use a calculator, who is now more effective at maths? Them.

Pencil and paper got replaced by the computer a few years back. Get over it mate lol

That's not far of being crud too, lol!!

And exactly how many of today's youth coming out of UK schools today, could get by without a calculator?? In my day when they were first allowed into exam rooms, they were seen as giving distinct advantage for those that used them, ...but you seem to know better.

You're going off at a tantrum that's neither here nor there, in the past there were relatively few calculators, so it was a case of being used to long hand calculating, today every man and his dog owns one.
Now i'm pretty sure i know what would happen if you took that calculator away from the vast majority of UK youth today, sitting an exam that was math biased. If the truth be known, you do too!! lol!!

Oh BTW, a Fact for you, ....They manufacture and sell more pencils pens and paper NOW, than at anytime in the past, and the numbers are still Growing!! Another Myth about the computer taking over the world!! What's a computer anyway, well at it's root core, it's a calculator!! ...lol!! So right, i've got over that one!! lol!!

 

[D Skelton]

Haha, you just can't let go can you!?

I stand 100% by what I say! Makes no difference whether or not you need a calculator or not to work out sums, just as long as you know why you are doing so then as an electrician, that's all that matters! Of course they give you an advantage, I'm not denying that, but that advantage is time!

Oh BTW, a Fact for you, ....They manufacture and sell more computers NOW, than at anytime in the past, and the numbers are still Growing!! So that kinda makes your fact irrelevant lol.

 

[Badged01]

Ding, ding round XX ........

 

[Andy78]

Blimey guys, just book a hotel room and get it over with

Just to divert slightly, what the heck is the 2392 ?

 

[D Skelton]

How do you find this sort of thing out? I always thought the 2391 had low pass rate and knew quite a few who took a few attempts or who gave up. On the other hand I don't know anyone who has failed the latter. I know that means nothing was just after some stats to compare if that info is avaliable.

By comparing national average pass marks in chief examiners reports. Also by taking both exams and seeing for yourself if they are the same or not. I have, and in my experience, I can say that the new 2394 and 2395 easily meet the standard of the old 2391.

 

[D Skelton]

Just to divert slightly, what the heck is the 2392 ?

The old level 2 initial verification certificate.

 

[Engineer54]

Haha, you just can't let go can you!?

I stand 100% by what I say! Makes no difference whether or not you need a calculator or not to work out sums, just as long as you know why you are doing so then as an electrician, that's all that matters! Of course they give you an advantage, I'm not denying that, but that advantage is time!

Oh BTW, a Fact for you, ....They manufacture and sell more computers NOW, than at anytime in the past, and the numbers are still Growing!! So that kinda makes your fact irrelevant lol.

Maybe for you and I etc, ....but i'm still not convinced when it comes to today's youth. Who i think will struggle big time without a calculator!!


NO not really, in fact not at all. It's just you altering the goal posts as you go. Or do they allow laptops or tablets into examination rooms now?? NO...?? well i guess it's your statement that's irrelavent then... lol!!

 

[Engineer54]

By comparing national average pass marks in chief examiners reports. Also by taking both exams and seeing for yourself if they are the same or not. I have, and in my experience, I can say that the new 2394 and 2395 easily meet the standard of the old 2391.

Why would anyone take an equivalent course of a qualification you already hold, ....What's the point in that?? Sorry i just can't get my head round that one at all!! Why would you not invest that not inconsiderable amount of money in a far more useful qualification such as the 2396 design & verification course??

 

[D Skelton]

Maybe for you and I etc, ....but i'm still not convinced when it comes to today's youth. Who i think will struggle big time without a calculator!!

Of course they'd struggle without a calculator, but by the same token, the youth of today would struggle without power steering in their cars! Does that make them worse drivers than those who grew up driving cars without power steering? No!

NO not really, in fact not at all. It's just you altering the goal posts as you go. Or do they allow laptops or tablets into examination rooms now?? NO...?? well i guess it's your statement that's irrelavent then... lol!!

Hang on a minute here! You weren't talking about the manufacture of paper and pencils for exam situations, you were talking about in general, and so was I, so I'm not moving the goalposts one bit! For the record, no, they don't allow laptops or tablets into exams, but they do allow word processors! So if you want to type instead of write, you have the choice!


I'll ask again; what is it about writing out a sum on paper rather than using a calculator that makes you so damn better??? The process is exactly the same!

Man writes down two numbers on piece of paper
Man squiggles down a few lines and manipulates those two numbers
Man arrives at answer


Man types down two numbers on calculator
Calculator throws a few electrons around and manipulates those two numbers
Calculator arrives at answer

 

[D Skelton]

Why would anyone take an equivalent course of a qualification you already hold, ....What's the point in that?? Sorry i just can't get my head round that one at all!! Why would you not invest that not inconsiderable amount of money in a far more useful qualification such as the 2396 design & verification course??

Because it was as near as makes no difference free for me to do so, and at some point I see myself maybe doing some sessional lecturing so having the up to date qualification might help? I only did the exams for the 2394 and 2395, not the whole course.

I have already invested my money in the 2396, I start it in April.

 

[Engineer54]

Of course they'd struggle without a calculator, but by the same token, the youth of today would struggle without power steering in their cars! Does that make them worse drivers than those who grew up driving cars without power steering? No!



Hang on a minute here! You weren't talking about the manufacture of paper and pencils for exam situations, you were talking about in general, and so was I, so I'm not moving the goalposts one bit! For the record, no, they don't allow laptops or tablets into exams, but they do allow word processors! So if you want to type instead of write, you have the choice!

I was simply replying to another of you're irrelavent statements...lol!! eg.... ''Pencil and paper got replaced by the computer a few years back. Get over it mate lol''


I'll ask again; what is it about writing out a sum on paper rather than using a calculator that makes you so damn better??? The process is exactly the same!

Jesus, how many more times, .....that's ''Fine'' if you have been taught throughout your school years to write things out on paper, ...NOT so fine when you Haven't!!!

Man writes down two numbers on piece of paper
Man squiggles down a few lines and manipulates those two numbers
Man arrives at answer


Man types down two numbers on calculator
Calculator throws a few electrons around and manipulates those two numbers
Calculator arrives at answer

The first example MAN has to think for himself, the second example MAN leaves it all to the electrons to do the thinking for him. Thanks, that explains very well what i've been saying all along!!

 

[D Skelton]

The first example MAN has to think for himself, the second example MAN leaves it all to the electrons to do the thinking for him. Thanks, that explains very well what i've been saying all along!!

No he doesn't, it's an automated process whether by brain or by calculator!

The whole point of using pencil and paper is to make the calculation easier than using your head! The same applies to a bleeding calculator! lol