UK Inspection Report, Electric Shower, Merlin Gerin and Schneider MCBs

[timbobelfast]

Well seeing as you are throwing in the bombs on page 7 here's the rest of it...

As already mentioned, a 'Satisfactory' EICR with no Insulation Resistance readings??!

Also, is this a TN-S or TT, under the Inspection page the box for Earth Electrode has as 'Pass' marked down.

Retrospectively there is nothing wrong with this consumer unit. Out of curiosity, how long did the Electrician take to complete the EICR??

 

[Iain Stewart]

I can’t but help but thinking that ’we’ve’ changed your mind about your original electrician after #19, for other than some poor administration? ‘We’ here can be very very critical at times, and sometimes feed people’s fears.

It seems you ready to accept the advise from strangers on a forum, we can only advise what’s reported to us, other than someone you previously trusted and who has worked in your house. Why not take up the suggestion in #39?

Hello Midwest, do you do poor administration?
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As already mentioned, a 'Satisfactory' EICR with no Insulation Resistance readings??!

Also, is this a TN-S or TT, under the Inspection page the box for Earth Electrode has as 'Pass' marked down.

Retrospectively there is nothing wrong with this consumer unit. Out of curiosity, how long did the Electrician take to complete the EICR??

Hi, around an hour...

 

[westward10]

I have been doing inspection and testing for thirty plus years and consider myself pretty slick at it but to test your installation along with some inspection of its parts an hour is an inadequate period of time.

 

[Dave OCD]

I'd say the absolute minimum time it could be done properly in would be 4 hours, could also easily take a day depending on the number of circuits and problems identified.

 

[Iain Stewart]

I'd say the absolute minimum time it could be done properly in would be 4 hours, could also easily take a day depending on the number of circuits and problems identified.

In that case... I probably got what I paid for!?!?

 

[davesparks]

I can’t but help but thinking that ’we’ve’ changed your mind about your original electrician after #19, for other than some poor administration? ‘We’ here can be very very critical at times, and sometimes feed people’s fears.

Ok so the 3phase 3wire, 240 instead of 230 and wrong serial number is poor administration, but carrying out no IR testing at all, and a Ze and pfc that just don't tally are bigger issues.
Add to that the recommendation to replace perfectly good equipment for the sole reason of being 'dated'

 

[Midwest]

Hello Midwest, do you do poor administration?
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Hi, around an hour...

Hmmm, can take me an hour to get my tools out of the van. And yes, I've made the odd faux pas.

 

[DefyG]

C3 for the faceplates just because they are dated!!!!

 

[Iain Stewart]

Okay... This all just confirms the guy is a waste of time and my money yes?

The questions below may be difficult to answer for some. An electrician of say around 30-40 years experience in the field would probably be the best to advise but however, does experience always trump knowledge?

Q1: What would you suspect the incoming electrical type to be considering the building age and multiple rewires/upgrades and a known rewire done 40-30 years ago? (TN-S etc..)
Q2: With the answer to Q1 in mind, and in the knowledge of the CU, What type of cabling arrangements would you expect to find in the property?
Q3: Years ago an old Electrician got an electric shock from a ceiling rose and mumbled something about the damned Neutral is... What and Why?
Q4: We have found in some ceilings, particularly where there is a beautiful centre ceiling cornice approximately 1m wide and protruding down approximately 150mm, there is old RMC with JB's carrying 1.5mm² T/E. Would this inhibit certain tests from being carried out and if so, Why?
Q5: Without the ability to lift floors and dig -out walls, in what way/method would you suspect cable runs to be?
Q:6 Hidden behind a 3.6mm ply board clad on the front of a 12" high 3" depth ornate skirting board, we discovered an old metal back box 6" x 4". The back box contained some beautifully crafted wiring, a truly artistic masterpiece in terms of connections and precisely cut lengths shaped perfectly for their purpose. The wiring conductors are clad in cloth. What are the chances of this wiring being in use or perhaps the RMC still being utilised, and if so how would this effect IR, Ze and PFC testing?
Q6: In one of the CU photos, you can see a shared outgoing, a partially white painted cable heading off upward to the flat upstairs for approx 8-10m, What impact would this have on the IR, Ze and PFC testing, in particular for the incoming origin OPD of the installation?
Q7: In what way would the answer to Q6 affect the ELI?
Q8: If seriously concerning readings were observed at Q6 above what would be your remedy for the problem?
Q9: If your results from the Ze and PFC tests, just don't tally, what would be your remedy and what would be the maximum values you would normally expect from this type of installation?
Q10: Would you run a mile or fudge the EICR to ensure you got paid?

Thanks...

 

[davesparks]

Okay... This all just confirms the guy is a waste of time and my money yes?

The questions below may be difficult to answer for some. An electrician of say around 30-40 years experience in the field would probably be the best to advise but however, does experience always trump knowledge?

Q1: What would you suspect the incoming electrical type to be considering the building age and multiple rewires/upgrades and a known rewire done 40-30 years ago? (TN-S etc..)
You've already posted a picture showing what appears to be a TNS supply (though a better picture would confirm) so this question just seems daft?
Q2: With the answer to Q1 in mind, and in the knowledge of the CU, What type of cabling arrangements would you expect to find in the property?
The answer to Q1 has no bearing at all on the type of cabling arrangements in the property, what exactly do you mean by cabling arrangements? if you mean what type of cable then, it being domestic, its likely to be twin and earth whatever its age.
Q3: Years ago an old Electrician got an electric shock from a ceiling rose and mumbled something about the damned Neutral is... What and Why?
What? if they got an electric shock then it must be live, though you might also be looking for looped (if theyve realy failed at isolation) or borrowed.
Why? simple, they received a shock because the circuit was not fully isolated
Q4: We have found in some ceilings, particularly where there is a beautiful centre ceiling cornice approximately 1m wide and protruding down approximately 150mm, there is old RMC with JB's carrying 1.5mm² T/E. Would this inhibit certain tests from being carried out and if so, Why?
What is RMC? the only vaguely relevant thing i can think of is from the USA where RMC is rigid metal conduit, its not a term ever used in the UK as far as I know.
If it is metal conduit then the person who rewired the property has just used it to save having to create a new cable route which could result in a lot of damage.
But no this does not prevent any tests being carried out as you have described it.
Also I think you mean a ceiling rose rather than a cornice, a cornice would run around the perimeter of the room.
Q5: Without the ability to lift floors and dig -out walls, in what way/method would you suspect cable runs to be?
under the floors and buried in the walls unless they are surface mounted.
Q:6 Hidden behind a 3.6mm ply board clad on the front of a 12" high 3" depth ornate skirting board, we discovered an old metal back box 6" x 4". The back box contained some beautifully crafted wiring, a truly artistic masterpiece in terms of connections and precisely cut lengths shaped perfectly for their purpose. The wiring conductors are clad in cloth. What are the chances of this wiring being in use or perhaps the RMC still being utilised, and if so how would this effect IR, Ze and PFC testing?
if wiring as old as that is still connected I would expect it to affect the results of an IR test.
It will not affect the measurement of the Ze and PFC as this is carried out on the incoming supply with the installation isolated and the earthing conductor disconnected (or test link removed etc)
Q6: In one of the CU photos, you can see a shared outgoing, a partially white painted cable heading off upward to the flat upstairs for approx 8-10m, What impact would this have on the IR, Ze and PFC testing, in particular for the incoming origin OPD of the installation?
I am going to assume this is a DNO shared supply and not privately fed from your installation?
No effect on the testing, it appears to be unsecured from what i can see so may attract a comment about that.
Q7: In what way would the answer to Q6 affect the ELI?
Do you mean EFLI? in which case not at all.
Q8: If seriously concerning readings were observed at Q6 above what would be your remedy for the problem?
Investigate the reason for the high readings and then come up with a plan to rectify them, there are a number of possibilities and soloutions.
Q9: If your results from the Ze and PFC tests, just don't tally, what would be your remedy and what would be the maximum values you would normally expect from this type of installation?
When Ze is measured the tester calculates the PFC from this measured value, PFC is not measured directly so if the results don't tally then I would send my tester away to be repaired, its not possible for a correctly working tester to give a PFC value which does not tally with Ze
Q10: Would you run a mile or fudge the EICR to ensure you got paid?
Neither, if I agree to carry out an EICR then I will do it.

Thanks...

Answers in red.

What are you trying to achieve with these questions?

 

[Iain Stewart]

Answers in red.

What are you trying to achieve with these questions?

Hi davesparks, nothing in particular just a few things I was pondering out of interest that's all.
Anyway, I think I will leave this thread now as there seems nowhere else for it to go...
Thanks for your time, much appreciated.

All the best!

 

[westward10]

That is some odd pondering if you are none too conversant with electrical requirements.

 

[davesparks]

Hi davesparks, nothing in particular just a few things I was pondering out of interest that's all.
Anyway, I think I will leave this thread now as there seems nowhere else for it to go...
Thanks for your time, much appreciated.

All the best!

Maybe you could answer my questions first before you leave this thread? Particularly by what exactly you mean by RMC?

 

[Iain Stewart]

Maybe you could answer my questions first before you leave this thread? Particularly by what exactly you mean by RMC?

Hello again, yes sorry... I should have said old threaded 20mm black steel conduit. You were correct in your assumption of the terminology, Rigid Metal Conduit.

I would have normally said the old threaded type... I picked up the terminology from a friend of mine who has recently had some bright galvanised conduit surface mounted around their entire property, its a sort of 'trendy' thing they have commissioned to create an industrial look against old re-pointed brickwork. Actually looks good along side the reclaimed rustic timbers that they also utilised...

Thanks again davesparks

 

[davesparks]

Hello again, yes sorry... I should have said old threaded 20mm black steel conduit. You were correct in your assumption of the terminology, Rigid Metal Conduit.

I would have normally said the old threaded type... I picked up the terminology from a friend of mine who has recently had some bright galvanised conduit surface mounted around their entire property, its a sort of 'trendy' thing they have commissioned to create an industrial look against old re-pointed brickwork. Actually looks good along side the reclaimed rustic timbers that they also utilised...

Thanks again davesparks

As I said, I've not heard it described as 'rigid metal conduit' in the UK before.

Yes that 'industrial look' has become popular, prompting a lot of badly installed steel conduit to appear in high street shops and restaurants l.

 

[Iain Stewart]

As I said, I've not heard it described as 'rigid metal conduit' in the UK before.

Yes that 'industrial look' has become popular, prompting a lot of badly installed steel conduit to appear in high street shops and restaurants l.

Yes indeed a shop they own in London... Never paid much attention to the actual installation but looks good all the same.

Cheers and have a Happy one...

 

[richy3333]

This thread has turned very odd, or have I just consumed too much beer over the festive season ?

 

[Strima]

or have I just consumed too much beer over the festive season

No such thing, have a word with yourself and grab another beer.

 

[Iain Stewart]

Ok guys following your advice with sourcing used or new old stock and a chat with a retired Electrician, I have decided to have the CU converted to a double RCD unit. This is bearing in mind that the initial EICR recommended having the lighting put on an RCD circuit too.

We have found this RCCB on eBay, see photo, and have a photo of the CU with cover off. However, I have noticed that they look different despite the fact that the serial/product numbers on the RCCB's are the exact same. I cannot find another one like this and also there is a strange, non-switched, unit to the left of the RCCB with a L sticker on it. Is this a part of the RCCB or some other kind of device?

Thanks...

 

[Pete999]

Ok guys following your advice with sourcing used or new old stock and a chat with a retired Electrician, I have decided to have the CU converted to a double RCD unit. This is bearing in mind that the initial EICR recommended having the lighting put on an RCD circuit too.

We have found this RCCB on eBay, see photo, and have a photo of the CU with cover off. However, I have noticed that they look different despite the fact that the serial/product numbers on the RCCB's are the exact same. I cannot find another one like this and also there is a strange, non-switched, unit to the left of the RCCB with a L sticker on it. Is this a part of the RCCB or some other kind of device?

Thanks...

Rather than faffing with trying to alter your existing CU a better option would be to swap the entire CU, a bit more expensive, but far better in the grand scheme of things, good luck

 

[westward10]

As above fiddling with second hand parts to convert into something it isn't intended for is not recommended. Where are you going to fit this second rcd.

 

[Iain Stewart]

Rather than faffing with trying to alter your existing CU a better option would be to swap the entire CU, a bit more expensive, but far better in the grand scheme of things, good luck

Oh! Pete999, very controversial in terms of the earlier replies to this post... Your'e looking for a fight haha
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As above fiddling with second hand parts to convert into something it isn't intended for is not recommended. Where are you going to fit this second rcd.

Two spare fuse ways to come out and a gap...
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Oh! Pete999, very controversial in terms of the earlier replies to this post... Your'e looking for a fight haha
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Two spare fuse ways to come out and a gap...

Why would it not be intended for? The same arrangement already exists on the other side!

 

[westward10]

Merlin Gerin never produced dual rcd boards so you will not be able to obtain the correct parts to ensure it complies to manufactures specifications.

 

[Pete999]

Merlin Gerin never produced dual rcd boards so you will not be able to obtain the correct parts to ensure it complies to manufactures specifications.

Not at all Iain, common sense rules. Can't access your profile, So it would be wrong of me to assess your competency to make a comment like that, and no, I'm not looking for an argument or a fight, looks like you are though, sorry for spelling your name incorrectly by the way.

 

[DPG]

Are you still intending moving out of this house soon? If so then forget fiddling about cobbling things together and leave it for the next homeowner. They may well get their own sparky to change things to how they want them to be. Probably RCBOs.

 

[Midwest]

Are you still intending moving out of this house soon? If so then forget fiddling about cobbling things together and leave it for the next homeowner. They may well get their own sparky to change things to how they want them to be. Probably RCBOs.

Didn't realise this thread was still going. I'd leave well alone as well. Let the next home owner rectify things, unless things are unsafe now.

 

[Iain Stewart]

Well according to the EICR, the Electrician recommended that the lighting be put on an RCD protected circuit. I assume that would be a good idea at any rate...

If we put our house on the market and in these times, it may not sell for a couple of years even though it's a good well maintained property.

In the earlier posts people have said the CU is of very high quality and more used in an industrial environment than in a domestic environment. Yes the board may not comply with today's standards but surely when this CU was made Merlin Gerin allowed for the scope to be broadened to suit any requirements especially as this CU is primarily intended for a commercial environment?

 

[Midwest]

Well according to the EICR, the Electrician recommended that the lighting be put on an RCD protected circuit. I assume that would be a good idea at any rate...

If we put our house on the market and in these times, it may not sell for a couple of years even though it's a good well maintained property.

In the earlier posts people have said the CU is of very high quality and more used in an industrial environment than in a domestic environment. Yes the board may not comply with today's standards but surely when this CU was made Merlin Gerin allowed for the scope to be broadened to suit any requirements especially as this CU is primarily intended for a commercial environment?

Really depends on your intentions on whether to move or not. Thousands of properties have lighting circuits not protected by an RCD. Whilst of course it would make things safer, this is only a recent requirement for new properties.

If your intention is to stay put, get the rectifications carried out. If you intend to move, I really wouldn't bother. Not reading back, but I don't recall the EICR saying anything was unsafe?

 

[Iain Stewart]

Really depends on your intentions on whether to move or not. Thousands of properties have lighting circuits not protected by an RCD. Whilst of course it would make things safer, this is only a recent requirement for new properties.

If your intention is to stay put, get the rectifications carried out. If you intend to move, I really wouldn't bother. Not reading back, but I don't recall the EICR saying anything was unsafe?

Yes the report was satisfactory. I was thinking that this would be the least expensive method of making the installation safe as per the Electricians recommendations for the short term...

 

[westward10]

You are intent on doing it no matter what advice we give. Be interesting to know how you will adapt the busbar which is not designed for modification.

 

[Iain Stewart]

You are intent on doing it no matter what advice we give. Be interesting to know how you will adapt the busbar which is not designed for modification.

I never said I was intent on doing it! That's your assumption but hey we are all allowed to think what we like... I will consider your advise thanks.

 

[Pete999]

I never said I was intent on doing it! That's your assumption but hey we are all allowed to think what we like... I will consider your advise thanks.

You have had a lot of advice, Westward is not known for flippant posts Mate

 

[Iain Stewart]

You have had a lot of advice, Westward is not known for flippant posts Mate
[/QUO

You have had a lot of advice, Westward is not known for flippant posts Mate

Fine ok mate...
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Time to put this one to bed... Thanks again and all the best!

 

[davesparks]

Ok guys following your advice with sourcing used or new old stock and a chat with a retired Electrician, I have decided to have the CU converted to a double RCD unit. This is bearing in mind that the initial EICR recommended having the lighting put on an RCD circuit too.

We have found this RCCB on eBay, see photo, and have a photo of the CU with cover off. However, I have noticed that they look different despite the fact that the serial/product numbers on the RCCB's are the exact same. I cannot find another one like this and also there is a strange, non-switched, unit to the left of the RCCB with a L sticker on it. Is this a part of the RCCB or some other kind of device?

Thanks...

You can't convert these boards to dual RCD.

The busbar is factory fitted in the plastic casing and not accessible for future alterations. There is a gap in it where the RCD fits.
The live terminal block to the left of the RCD takes the live from the busbar to the bottom of the RCD, the RCD outgoing side connects directly to the second half of the busbar.
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Rather than faffing with trying to alter your existing CU a better option would be to swap the entire CU, a bit more expensive, but far better in the grand scheme of things, good luck

Swapping the CU will be cheaper than doing what is necessary to add rcd protection to all circuits on this one.
However a new CU will be much lower quality than the existing MG unit, even the new MG boards aren't as good as those ones.

 

[Strima]

I’d swap the RCD for a switch and source some RCBOs.

 

[DPG]

I’d swap the RCD for a switch and source some RCBOs.

I'd s leave the bloody thing alone.

 

[Iain Stewart]

Thank you Davesparks. An excellent explanation of why it can't be done.
I appreciate your input, very valued indeed.

Pete999
I will leave it as it is and leave the rewire and new CU to the possible new owner. Thanks for the good info.

STRIMA and DPG, you are driving me crazy...hahaha

Tell you guys what! Figure out between you what the best solution would be utilising the existing CU by using any means possible, new Busbars, RCBO's whatever, and I will pay for you to come and fix it for me!

Thanks once again...

 

[DPG]

No offence intended. I've had several pints so being a bit too vocal maybe. One of the guys on here would willingly offer their services I'm sure. Just be careful of Tel - he's a bit filthy. And davesparks can be a bit moody. But they are all good guys. Not being sexist there by the way - guys includes men and women to me. That's before sparky chick kicks off. Look at me - a bit merry and still punctuating like a God.

Mine' s a rum and coke. Ta.

 

[Iain Stewart]

Not being sexist there by the way - guys includes men and women to me. That's before sparky chick kicks off.

Me neither...

 

[davesparks]

My opinion is that the best thing would be to replace the mcbs with RCBO's.

If it was my house I'd be digging through our stores to find the RCBO's to do the job, I'm pretty sure I'd find everything needed in there somewhere.
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Tell you guys what! Figure out between you what the best solution would be utilising the existing CU by using any means possible, new Busbars, RCBO's whatever, and I will pay for you to come and fix it for me!

Well if you're paying for transport, accommodation and food I'll do it.

I like my steak rare and my liquor strong!

 

[Strima]

I'd s leave the bloody thing alone.

So would I but I like to give the customer other options.

 

[M-Ty]

If it were my house, I'd be perfectly happy to leave the electrical installation as it is, apart from either a like-for-like replacement of the faulty shower or a simple thermostatic mixer if the hot water system supports it, and consider whether the money saved would be more usefully spent on other things that could provide a greater reduction in risk, e.g. a shower mat, fire alarm system, a washing machine and tumble dryer that won't support a fire, a car with better NCAP rating, a non-slip path, a new house, etc.

 

[Iain Stewart]

If it were my house, I'd be perfectly happy to leave the electrical installation as it is, apart from either a like-for-like replacement of the faulty shower or a simple thermostatic mixer if the hot water system supports it, and consider whether the money saved would be more usefully spent on other things that could provide a greater reduction in risk, e.g. a shower mat, fire alarm system, a washing machine and tumble dryer that won't support a fire, a car with better NCAP rating, a non-slip path, a new house, etc.

Don't you think it would be a good idea to swap over the cooker circuit and shower circuit on the CU MCB's?
Thanks

 

[Iain Stewart]

Not at all Iain, common sense rules. Can't access your profile, So it would be wrong of me to assess your competency to make a comment like that, and no, I'm not looking for an argument or a fight, looks like you are though, sorry for spelling your name incorrectly by the way.

I have no idea where my competency would be... but I am no novice! I have updated my profile especially for you!

 

[Pete999]

I have no idea where my competency would be... but I am no novice! I have updated my profile especially for you!

Thanks for that Iain