Search for tools and product advice,

Discuss 3 Phase 125 a fused isolator, neutrals all melted! in the Electricians' Talk | All Countries area at ElectriciansForums.net

S

sparks1653

I got an emergency callout today from a theatre i do a lot of work for. they had lost power to their stage lighting systems. after a visual inspection the neutral bar of the isolator has melted a lot and the cable discolored and brittle. obviously there is the fault!

i was thinking about just installing another 125a isolator, however there is no reason this fault wouldnt happen again, as nothing will be different. The cable supplying the isolator is bolted straight to an incoming bus bar setup. then through the isolator to a 125a 3p-n-e socket. it is then broken down into 3 x 63a single phase sockets each one supplying a dimmer rack for their lighting systems. each one on a separate phase.

the reason this is unpredictable is for every show the load balancing on each phase is different, so i need the most versatile safest way of resolving this.

i came up with a few different ideas and wanted advice on which sounded the best. or if anyone has a better idea.

1) come off the bus bar supply into a 3-p-n-e distribution board then have 3 x 63a single phase breakers suppling SWA supplies to each 63a socket

if i do this would it still be a good idea to have an isolator near each socket even though they are close to the distribution board, or would that suffice?

2) same as existing, come off the bus bar supply into a 3p-n-e 125a isolator, then to a 125a 3p-n-e socket and then split down to 63a single phase sockets (doesnt seem logical to me)

3) come off the bus bars with 3 separate cables - 1 off each phase, into 3 separate 63a single phase fused rotary isolators each one supplying a 63a socket

4) some combination of all of the above!
 
sparks,
This is NOT an issue that can be solved on an internet forum IMHO.
You may have several issues and if your ideas are just rewiring then this may be one of them.
Unless we can understand the details of the connected kit then you are on your own.
If you don't know the answer, then sorry there is little I can do from here to solve the problem
If you want me to come over and sort it I can, but not remotely sorry.
My rates are reasonable for a consultant who can also implement the findings.
Just rewiring is not the answer.
 
thats the issue i am having too. they cant tell me the loading for any of these circuits as none of their lighting is permanent so its changed from show to show, so the phases will be loaded differently, different current requirements (max 63a each dimmer rack though) and also they use the lighting for stage lighting, so they can be using any combination of lights in any one of the 3 dimmer racks at any time really. sorry i am not being very specific i know i havent given too much to go on.
 
Neutral issues in my experience when charred or burning out tend to be down to poor connection but this isnt always the case as every job must be assessed as seen, you say the neutral bar has melted ???? Is it physically melted as in brass blob or you just trying to explain it better on how much heat was their i find it hard to believe it melted, also a pic would have been nice you can visually usually assess the cable that created the overheating the rest will just be transferred heat damage.
 
top,
There are other issues, and these may well be significant, and IMHO, if the OP does not understand these at this point, then all they are liable to do is dig themselves a bigger hole.
Sorry OP, but if you cannot see the issues that may be present, then again IMHO you should allow someone who is competent to take over and sort the issue, as from your posts it appears you are well out of your depth, and are risking yourself, the performers and the general public along with the structure of the building, if you choose to carry on then if I were you I would check my insurances, else you could end up homeless and penniless.
I appreciate the assistance ethic of the forum, but advice in an internet forum post does not equal competence, and sorry, it seems you are not competent to do this work.
Please pass this on to someone who is competent before you kill someone.
 
A 125amp fused isolator is designed to carry all the loads up to and including 125amps, they are tested to the overload current and there duration needed to blow the fuses, if the neutrals have overheated you are looking at a loose connection which wont be apparent now as it will have welded itself or the cable sizing.
The biggest current the neutral will have in it in theory in normal working conditions would be 125amp if 2 phases not loaded and one was at max load, as you load up the remaining phases the neutral current will drop.
 
darkwood,
I think you may have missed the crux of the OP?
Yes went slightly off keel there cheers for the note... i just picked up on when he said "whats to stop it happening again?" if he copied the existing .... must stop skipping across long op's me thinks lol
 
@ darkwood, thank you for the advice. yeah when i said melted the lug on the neutral has welded itself to the neutral bar inside the isolator, and the nut and bolt securing it have melted around the lug and bar - now making connections of the neutrals very loose in there. so you think my idea of running the 3p-n-e supply to a distribution board and then out of that 3 individual 63a singles would be a better idea than simple replacing the isolator?
 
My posts are suggestions on where to look etc but as Netblindpaul has stated the issues leading to the burnout may be far more complex due to the use of the building, i give posts to help you view a different angle but i cant say in your case the best way to approach this as i havent seen the install and and cant establish why your neutral burnt out, i suggest you read-up a little on stray currents and unwanted noise and there causes before commiting to a solution.
 
To my mind you’ve got a problem with harmonics. Is the neutral ½ core?
To be honest I can’t understand the where plugs and sockets come in to the set up. I take it that this is a permanent set up.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
It’s not likely to be a conventional fault given the situation. My best advice is contact Paul and take him up on his offer. Given the situation the dangers to the public can’t be ignored.
 
the first thing that popped into my head when i read this post earlier in the van, was harmonics. especially as the dimmer units ect may be switched mode, and i know DMX supplies use electronics. As spin mentioned, it may also be something as simple as a loose connection.
 
Seems a complex problem.

I know I do not have the experience to answer, but would like to know what happened as a learning opportunity.
So here is how I would look at the situation, please advise (have not been doing this long)

First is to check is the size of the neutral.
If someone has used the 'over half' rule and put in a tiny neutral it could be as simple as massively unbalanced lighting resolved by client education of balancing loads (or putting in a decent N).

If the neutral is equal size with conductors then my guess would be harmonics causing positive interference on the neutral conductor and ramping the current.

That would be a lot harder to fix and short of just putting a bigger neutral in I am not sure what to do.

I would like to know what the relevant current draws are on each line. a few clamp meters and get them to go through their lighting sequence seeing how it changes.

So anyone feel like helping a noob learn?
 
Seems a complex problem.I know I do not have the experience to answer, but would like to know what happened as a learning opportunity.So here is how I would look at the situation, please advise (have not been doing this long)First is to check is the size of the neutral.If someone has used the 'over half' rule and put in a tiny neutral it could be as simple as massively unbalanced lighting resolved by client education of balancing loads (or putting in a decent N).If the neutral is equal size with conductors then my guess would be harmonics causing positive interference on the neutral conductor and ramping the current.That would be a lot harder to fix and short of just putting a bigger neutral in I am not sure what to do.I would like to know what the relevant current draws are on each line. a few clamp meters and get them to go through their lighting sequence seeing how it changes.So anyone feel like helping a noob learn?
Have a look for "neutral harmonics" on Google, some of it is heavy going.
 
Hi Guys

I have been looking at the above thread to try and figure out my problem which is similar.
I work on a very big construction site and we deal with a lot of substations supplying different parts of the site.
At our main office block I have seperated our offices into smaller sections each supplied by an office DB (This is all temp electrical installations i.e. the orange boards) Today I was called out as a lot of PC's and air cons had popped! Upon opening the DB the main incoming neutral had completely burnt away as in the lugs connected onto the neutral stud were gone! I have an earth leakage relay that was protecting the secondary side but for some reason it had not operated. This is a 3 phases installation and a TN-S earth arrangement. My biggest question is why did the PC's and aircon's (220V) blow up. All that happened was that the neutral was gone therefore the circuit was incomplete and the appliances would stop working not blow up as if they were receiving 380V? Really stumped on this.
 
When you lost your neutral you effectively put 400volt across the LIVES on your single phase system, you had what is referred to as a floating neutral.

You have to remember that each phase is at 120 degrees to each other and so lags each other at a potential of 400volts. The neutral ties this down as to be Uo-230, if you lost that neutral then you are back at 400 volts.

The earth leakage will not have operated as you never had an earth fault.
 
So just to confirm even though my neutral was missing the one live wire in the single phase circuit was now carrying 400V into the socket outlets and then into the aircons etc?
 
Wow thanks so much for your help I really appreciate it as I have to give an answer to the big bosses as their PC's blew up which is never a good thing. Is there any possible solution to prevent this from happening again apart from making sure the connections are tight? Thanks again
 
How many terminations have you on site ? Terminations fail with age and load, all you can do really is introduce a good PPM system

I'm surprised that part of your insurance agreement does not insist on yearly thermal checks on your panel boards to detect hot spots.

Fluke actually do an hand held infrared thermometers that you simply point at the terminations or DB and it will detect hot spots, using this with a good PPM schedule will highlight problems before they happen

Portable Thermometers | Fluke 60 Series Handheld Infrared Thermometers
 
Have had a look at the instruments and management have agreed to buy this Fluke so as to prevent this. I am not sure what the insurance policy states as I was transfered here in July but will check that up (thanks again for that). Do you think surge arresters would have helped in this case? Just a thought? As you can probably see I have to fix up a lot of issues left behind! I know one sparky shouldn't wrong another one but one cannot help think what they were thinking
 
It would have depended where you fitted these SPD. They will come in 3 classes Type I II and III the type I will normally be fitted at the origin of the supply mainly for transient voltages due to lightening strikes and are not that common in the UK.

Type II would be at local distribution boards if they are 3 phase then the SPDs would not have been much use for you as the 400volt would not be deemed a surge, if they were single phase boards then yes they would have protected the system. These type are quite common in installations that have high switching due to inductive loads such as motors, elevators or HF lighting.

The Class III are very local and are often incorporated into a BS 1363 Socket outlet to protect appliances or equipment as a singular option.

These items are not cheap and it really would be a costing exercise. Personally I would be advising a good PPM schedule with the infra red technology, and perhaps even if the insurance don't insist on it having a contracting in once a year to do thermal imaging
 

Reply to 3 Phase 125 a fused isolator, neutrals all melted! in the Electricians' Talk | All Countries area at ElectriciansForums.net

Similar Threads

Hello, Looking for some advice following a botched 3 phase upgrade today. Some background: Commercial unit originally fitted out (4 years ago)...
Replies
10
Views
794
5 single phases to one huge property. Backup generator which can take about 106 amps split between 2 phases - 1 phase will be wired through...
Replies
2
Views
574
Hi everyone, each leakage question here. I am needing to run some LED screens, professional type, not TVs. These are 500mm x 500mm panels and...
Replies
11
Views
4K
I'm in the middle of preparing a quote for installing 12 x 3Kw and 4 x 2Kw halogen heaters in a church. The system design was provided by a...
Replies
27
Views
1K
So, the actual job is on a farm. I think I'll keep things simple at the moment and just ask about voltage drop. I'll come on to earthing and...
Replies
11
Views
2K

OFFICIAL SPONSORS

Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Electrician Courses Green Electrical Goods PCB Way Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Pushfit Wire Connectors Electric Underfloor Heating Electrician Courses
These Official Forum Sponsors May Provide Discounts to Regular Forum Members - If you would like to sponsor us then CLICK HERE and post a thread with who you are, and we'll send you some stats etc

YOUR Unread Posts

This website was designed, optimised and is hosted by untold.media Operating under the name Untold Media since 2001.
Back
Top
AdBlock Detected

We get it, advertisements are annoying!

Sure, ad-blocking software does a great job at blocking ads, but it also blocks useful features of our website. For the best site experience please disable your AdBlocker.

I've Disabled AdBlock