AFDDs for single-socket circuits

[Dustydazzler]

Although I get it that some people are reluctant to fit AFDDs partly because no testing can be done, bear in mind we don't test MCBs either.

The fact we can't test them is neither here nor there Imo , as you say we fit millions of MCBs each month and have no idea if they work proper or not.
My issue with AFFDDDs is I honestly don't feel that they are necessary in the UK

 

[DPG]

The fact we can't test them is neither here nor there Imo , as you say we fit millions of MCBs each month and have no idea if they work proper or not.
My issue with AFFDDDs is I honestly don't feel that they are necessary in the UK

Yes, but I was specifically referring to the issue that gets raised about being unable to test them.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Yes, but I was specifically referring to the issue that gets raised about being unable to test them.

From what I have seen on YouTube from America the more expensive AFCI / AFFDDDs are Self Testing

 

[GBDamo]

if houses and flats were burning down left right and centre due to loose connections and arc faults then I would be the first to be pricing AFFDDDs to my board swaps. My clients for most part are very well off and wouldn't bat an eyelid to a new £2000 consumer unit.
I just haven't seen enough evidence in front of me to suggest AFFDDDS are really a necessary Evil

Quite, AFDFs are a solution in desperate need of a problem.

 

[davesparks]

Yes AFDDs are only a recommendation but after September will need a waiver signed by the client to say they dont want them, which will cover you when their tv blows up and they say you didnt recommend using one

Which regulation states that a waiver is required?

 

[Dustydazzler]

Quite, AFDFs are a solution in desperate need of a problem.

Agree

They are invention ahead of their time as the problem hasn;t been invented yet

 

[davesparks]

The fact we can't test them is neither here nor there Imo , as you say we fit millions of MCBs each month and have no idea if they work proper or not.
My issue with AFFDDDs is I honestly don't feel that they are necessary in the UK

Yes we do, but MCB's are batch tested and generally proven to be a pretty reliable technology. Plus they are a fairly basic mechanical device which doesn't rely on electronics.
Plus if an MCB is tripping it is almost always possible to find the cause with regular test equipment that we all have. We can pretty easily test whether an MCB is over-sensitive.

Afdds are presumably also batch tested, but they rely on sophisticated electronics to work which increases the opportunity for failures, especially when engineered down to a price.
We have no way of realistically testing for what may have caused an afdd to trip at the moment, and no way to work out if it is being over-sensitive.

 

[Dustydazzler]

I remember a few years ago watching a YouTube video of an electrician trying to get to the bottom of a tripping AFCI on a socket circuit on a new house. He couldn't get the AFCI to hold in SO guess what he did...

Removed the AFCi and put the circuit on a standard MCB

If that is the American solution to a tripping AFCi then why bother in the first place ?

 

[Selfmade]

Although I get it that some people are reluctant to fit AFDDs partly because no testing can be done, bear in mind we don't test MCBs either.

True, although at least in the event of an MCB trip we can break up and test sections of the circuit to find the location of the fault.

 

[UNG]

Although I get it that some people are reluctant to fit AFDDs partly because no testing can be done, bear in mind we don't test MCBs either.

If we wanted to spend a lot of money there is test equipment available for MCB's, I have done many searches for AFDD test equipment and found none

The fact we can't test them is neither here nor there Imo , as you say we fit millions of MCBs each month and have no idea if they work proper or not.
My issue with AFFDDDs is I honestly don't feel that they are necessary in the UK

MCB's are so cheap that no one really bothers if a suspect one is replaced, a suspect AFDD replacement is a considered cost and the decision can't be taken lightly

From what I have seen on YouTube from America the more expensive AFCI / AFFDDDs are Self Testing

How do you have faith and trust in a self test, the AFDD says it is working correctly so it must be right and the circuit is faulty and so the pantomime starts. It says it all with AFDD's when Hager has produced an AFDD that can be reprogrammed to ignore circuit noise that the AFDD may inadvertantly react to

Afdds are presumably also batch tested, but they rely on sophisticated electronics to work which increases the opportunity for failures, especially when engineered down to a price.

And firmware / software that could become corrupt from mains noise or voltage spikes is that why the SPD came before the AFDD

We have no way of realistically testing for what may have caused an afdd to trip at the moment, and no way to work out if it is being over-sensitive.

As previously mentioned Hager do have monitoring tools and their AFDD can be reproogrammed but I can't help but feel it's a kings new clothes situation you programme out the senstivity and all you end up with is a fancy bit of kit in the box to meet the requirements of the regs but it performs no other function

In recent years we have had requirements to fit SPD's and now AFDD's but nowhere have I seen any documentation, facts or real world reasons / case studies to support there introduction or to enable us to better inform our clients and customers as to the benefits of having them installed in their installation

 

[Markyd]

Which regulation states that a waiver is required?

3 mins into vid

 

[Dustydazzler]

Rather than messing about with Waivers

I will probably end up doing 2 quotes for future board changes

Quote 1 - The expensive option with AFFDDDs

Quote 2 - The slightly less expensive option without AFFDDDs

On the bottom of quote 2 , it is say that AFFDDDs were offered as an upgraded option but declined

 

[timhoward]

3 mins into vid

None of that text is in the regs.
They have made it look like it is, but it isn't.

All the regs say is:
"For other premises, the use of AFDDs conforming to BS EN 62606 is recommended for single-phases AC final circuits supplying socket-outlets not exceeding 32A"

 

[Markyd]

None of that text is in the regs.
They have made it look like it is, but it isn't.

All the regs say is:
"For other premises, the use of AFDDs conforming to BS EN 62606 is recommended for single-phases AC final circuits supplying socket-outlets not exceeding 32A"

If you dont want to cover your backside....... You carry on then.......

 

[Dustydazzler]

I guess the other thing to possibly consider , if if you fit a fully RCBOs board as the customer can't afford the upgrade to AFFDDDs , should we make sure that we are fitting boards that at a latter date the home owner could swap out some of the RCBOs for AFFDDDs. Will all makes of consumer unit offer a AFFDDD that will fit in a single way in their current board models

 

[loz2754]

As AFDDs are recommended in all other situations than those specified in the regs, some installers would choose to pass on the recommendation (along with the cost).

But there are many uses of the word "recommended" in the regs. Should we follow the same logic of covering our own arrses and pass on these recommendations as well?

 

[timhoward]

If you dont want to cover your backside....... You carry on then.......

I don't actually feel any need to when page 18 of the regs clearly defines normative and informative elements.
As @loz2754 points out it would be a long list to get waivers signed for everything that is recommended that we don't do.

I prefer to tell customers what is required and what is recommended and help them make informed choices. Making them sign something is (to my mind) creating a false impression of severity relating to the consequences.

 

[Welchyboy1]

Yes AFDDs are only a recommendation but after September will need a waiver signed by the client to say they dont want them, which will cover you when their tv blows up and they say you didnt recommend using one

Isn’t that SPDs?

 

[Markyd]

Isn’t that SPDs?

After Sept SPDs are mandatory and the only way you can get out of fitting one is if the customer signs a waiver.

 

[Dustydazzler]

NO....after Sept SPDs are mandetory

Will they come supplied 'as Standard' with every Screwfix special consumer unit ?

Bet they don't