Alternative [solar] suppy

[d1scv]

Been asked by a client to carry out a full rewire on a bungalow.
The rub? - To make provision for a secondary supply, via solar panels, invertor etc, to power lighting and a couple of 5amp socket outlets- to click in if battery conditions are good.
Have now got a design in my head. But for the life of me, I cannot see any benefit- even if he lives to be 100 years older.
Have tried to talk this through with the client. But he's adamant. Green issues and in case of war!

I would really value any- any- views on this.
The main problem here is that the guy is a civil engineer, and he's been sitting in on meetings where they sell this cr*p to each other. And no one has the guts to tell it as it is- waste of time in UK

 

[wattsup]

Solar panels in the UK cannot provide electrical energy (reletive speaking cost wise) Indeed it's doubtful in any domestic situation no matter how warm the climate in any country. They do however; can sometimes supply 'warm water' in the UK. Some 'greenies' use them to heat their indoor swimming pools!
I know from experience it is hard to convince an out and out greenie they are wasting money and resourses.

I would suggest you explain the maths, price from utility company kwh, against cost solar panel. Do the maths, explain, in actual fact the power station supplying his normal power is more efficient than the solar panel, given manufacturing costs of the panel, both in monetary terms and co2 terms.

Added, additional install costs and transport to site. It will not add up, he his ******* in the wind massively. If he his a councillor and looking for votes he won't listen.

btw, the same can be said for domestic wind turbines, a big con

 

[Tester Steve]

Remember, the customer is always right! Take the work and put it in!

Steve.

 

[Banguwangi]

It is not quite true that a PV installation is uneconomic......especially with the new feed in tarrif. I would point out to your customer that if he wants to claim grants or the higher feed-in tarrif he needs to use an accredited installer.

 

[saveloy]

If you need a feed in tarriff or grant to make a Pv system economic then on its own its......... err ...........uneconomic.

Quite why our skint Govt is hell bent on subsidising this rubbish is beyond me. The only reason I can fathom is that they have not invested one penny in building new power stations. They now realise that soon, as our old power stations pack up, this country will be plunged into darkness.....unless we all have our own micro generation systems installed. Genius.

 

[Banguwangi]

I install these systems, at the moment for an average system payback is around 8 years falling all the time....as fuel prices rise they will become more and more economic. It;s true they are expensive but i'm not sure why you are so strongly against. Certainly the rest of europe thinks they are a valid way to go.

 

[saveloy]

I install these systems, at the moment for an average system payback is around 8 years falling all the time....as fuel prices rise they will become more and more economic. It;s true they are expensive but i'm not sure why you are so strongly against. Certainly the rest of europe thinks they are a valid way to go.

8 years payback and falling is a very optomistic IMO. Although this article is over a year old the RICS say that it will on average take upto 100 years to acheive payback for a solar PV system

Solar panels 'take 100 years to pay back installation costs' - Climate Change, Environment - The Independent

This article from 3 days states that the payback will reduce from 50 years down to 15 BUT only because of the new Govt feed in tarrifs
H&V News - Heating and Ventilating News - Solar panel payback to be slashed from 50 to 15 years

So even with the Govt paying householders to generate their own electricity it will take 15 years to recoup the initial investment. That is assuming the householder remains living in the same house. If you want to move then the system will be a negative investment.

The fact that the Govt has to offer financial incentives to encourage homeowners to install PV speaks volumes. If it were such a great investment then people would be falling over themselves to install them without the need to pay them to do so.

 

[Markc]

IMHO I think that RICs are talking bull. Now yes I agree without the new FiTs tariffs then a grid connected PV system wouldn’t be economic and a pay back would be beyond the original client however with FiTs and export tariffs as well as supporting the properties energy consumption then there is a pay back and dependant on system, location and design then 8 years is achievable. Under the Kyoto agreement we are committed to CO2 reduction and hence the development of microgeneration technologies and government schemes. I agree we are behind other European countries like Germany who are now hitting 60% and we haven’t reached our agree 5% by the end of 2009 but it is getting there. I’ve designed several systems recently and with FiTs, Export tariffs and saved purchase of electricity through self generation then it works. The installation cost is coming down as the product cost does so and with energy cost expected to raise then it becomes more appealing. To dismiss PV in its entirety suggests little or no experience or knowledge on the subject and solely reliant on none objective views from a newspaper. The Telegraph had an article the other weekend on PV and it showed figures supporting a 2.5Kw system.

 

[d1scv]

Many thanks for all the replies.
Now- could anyone put the whole lot into something a 60 year old hands on sparks might understand!
My view at present- all this green stuff is bol***ks, with respect.

 

[wattsup]

The grid is crumbling, the government knows it it is. The low energy lamp introduction is another example. The government must reduce load by whatever means they can.
Solar panels for domestic use cannot provide any worthwhile electrical energy, the sums do not add up.
They can sometimes provide warm water and thats all, in the UK even then its not really economical.

The exact same for domestic 'windmills' cannot 'pay for themselves' in ' n' years. Because it is not possible to say how windy it will be next year. By their own figures based on an average wind speed over the course of year manufacturers are claiming 10 - 15 year pay-back time, what they fail to mention is maintainence over the years which could be very expensive, a broken rotor or shot bearing...etc.

And suppose you have 5k - 10k to spare? put in a high interest account for 15 years, in 15 years see what the weather is like -

Hey Markc, can you point me to the article that says 2.5kW is achievable. I can't find it, if its lost in cyber space can you remember how it works, are there battery banks?
How does it work at night, or winter or cloudy days..

 

[saveloy]

The grid is crumbling, the government knows it it is. The low energy lamp introduction is another example. The government must reduce load by whatever means they can.
Solar panels for domestic use cannot provide any worthwhile electrical energy, the sums do not add up.
They can sometimes provide warm water and thats all, in the UK even then its not really economical.

The exact same for domestic 'windmills' cannot 'pay for themselves' in ' n' years. Because it is not possible to say how windy it will be next year. By their own figures based on an average wind speed over the course of year manufacturers are claiming 10 - 15 year pay-back time, what they fail to mention is maintainence over the years which could be very expensive, a broken rotor or shot bearing...etc.

And suppose you have 5k - 10k to spare? put in a high interest account for 15 years, in 15 years see what the weather is like -

Good post. This country is facing a serious energy crisis as a result of non investment.
Fwiw I am genuinely interested in renewable energy technologies, but I just feel that solar Pv systems are unviable. The average joe with £10k to spare these days is very far and few between. And if they have those funds they are not going to want to spend it on solar Pv, with a return of £150- £200 a year.
My problem with the feed in tarriffs and grants are that everyone else ends up paying for them .The money has to come from somewhere!

 

[wattsup]

I can’t go into solar panels because its generally accepted sp’s cannot supply worthwhile electricity on the domestic level, you needn’t be a physicist to understand why. There is no data available for domestic usage in the UK for generating electrical energy.

But understanding the costs and payback can easily be explained using the much more ‘efficient’ wind turbines.

A common wind turbine that is affordable for average joe bloggs would supply 1000w, that would be the sales pitch.

The cost of installing such a system would cost £5000 - £8000.

So lets take the average of £6500.

One kWh cost 0.14 on average from the utility company. At optimum wind speed for the turbine to be at maximum efficiency, the turbine will produce 1kw.

So to produce £6500 worth of electricity, the turbine will need to run at max efficiency for 46430 hours, or 1934 days, or 5.3 years.

Not bad!

Except the wind doesn’t blow all the time, even in ‘best areas’ efficiency is only 20%

So 15 + years to get your money back. And only if you live in a ‘good area’. No doubt utility prices will rise but no maintenance costs have been added, so that may go someway to even things up.

I remember going to court a few years ago, and the judge asked me ‘why have you failed to pay for the new double glazing installed in your house?’

‘Sir’ I said, ‘the salesman told me they would pay for themselves in 5 years’

 

[Markc]

Hey Wattsup. I will try and disprove the myth!

Grid connected systems no need for batteries as the inverter simple converts directly to 230V or 3 x 230V for three phase systems.
Generate at night! Your going to think I’m taking the urine but yes some can. There is a new panel which should be launched later this year that can generate from moonlight. Off hand I can’t remember who is developing it but I think it was either Sharp or BP Solar. My panels according to my inverter has generated on a full moon clear night but the output was next to nothing but still it’s generating.

PV out smarts wind hands down. One of our larger turbines we connected was an 11KVA three phase turbine on a 18mt tower in Norfolk. £34K it cost and the company who supplied said it would pay back in 8 Years! Now you are exactly right in you earlier post in saying that there is no guarantee on wind blowing and I would say the turbine 8 time out of 10 I’ve been back is not going. The client gets 9p per ROC and a ROC is just about 1Kwh. However the turbine will turn at night if windy.

Back to PV

Panels will generate in daylight not just direct sunlight. I agree at a lower rate but still generating. On a rainy day, cloudy day and snow (once the snow has cleared from the panel) I got one of my best days since November a few weeks ago when we had snow and then a clear sunny day and when I checked the Sunny beam meter and recorded the result is was even on par with a day last June. My system is only three panels and was for our MCS inspection so it isn’t going to run the house but it is putting something in and so reducing my electric bill and from April will earn me 41.3p per Kwh generated no mater if I use it in my house or sell it back to the grid. On grid connected there are two design factors to consider and neither are to do with how much electricity the property needs. First is how much money the client is willing to invest and the second is how big is the roof to fit the panel to or ground mount space available. Rule of thumb on area is 10sq mt per 1Kw.

A 2.5Kw system with FiTs, export tariff and saving on electric bill will be around £1000 per year average. No one can guarantee that as weather factors come in to play but it’s a fairly good guide. The other thing to consider is the added value to the property. It has been reported that it could add approximately 10% to the value so if you have a £200,000 home then for a 4Kw system it’s broken even the day its fitted to the roof. PV give a return to value rate of 7 to 9% depending and I’d like to see you get that from a bank at the minute!

If you are considering fitting PV to your roof and getting your electric supply taken out then No its not going to work. Cost of batteries to run your home would be astronomical but if you look at PV as a way of reducing bills then there is the pay back.

That article is as follows. I use it in our sales folders so have a copy. I have not edited it in any way and was taken direct form the paper.

Householders will soon be able to enjoy tax-free returns above 8pc, add to the value of their property and do their bit to help the planet.
Perhaps it was inevitable that Britain would experience the coldest winter in decades as political bigwigs returned from the Copenhagen summit on global warming. But, despite falling temperatures and rising scepticism, it seems householders will soon be able help the environment and gain electrifying returns.
You can do so by installing solar panels, following new Feed-in-Tariffs (FiT) announced by Ed Miliband, the Energy and Climate Change Secretary. From April 1, households which double up as green electricty stations will be paid 41.3p per kilowatt hour (kWh) for the juice they generate.
Britain’s rotten weather is, apparently, not a problem for new types of photovoltaic (PV) solar panels – but you will need plenty of space on a flat roof and a chunk of spare capital. A typical 2.5 kWh system tends to take up about 10 feet by 10 feet and costs about £12,500.
However, the Department of Energy and Climate Change reckons this kit should produce about 2,125 kWh per year and total returns – including reduced electricity bills for the DIY domestic generators – of about £1,050 per year. That’s a yield of 8.4pc. Total returns could exceed that because the presence of a profit centre where only pigeons roost on other people’s property should boost house prices for the new DIY electricity generators.
Potential pitfalls include planning consent – although that’s unlikely to be a problem if you do not live in a conservation area and the panels are out of sight - plus the political risk that a future government may remove its sponsorship from this scheme. But, for now, it appears that ethical investors can gain electrifying returns and do well by doing good.

The technology is ever improving and a 40% efficiency rated panel is only 12 to 18 months away so yields will be even higher. It’s a cleaner energy, no moving parts so no maintenance, Self cleaning glass so the wife hasn’t got to get up on our roof to clean them…….(I may tell her that at some time!) No annual costs. Panels are rated for 25 years for efficiency but that’s not to say they fail. To me PV is a proven technology and will be getting ever better. As for the RICs well I can’t say I agree. 100 years to pay back is outrageous and they just don’t have a clue what they are talking about.

I possibly haven’t convinced you but if you know of a system near you and you get opportunity to have a look at it close up and talk to the client please do so. You may be surprised.

 

[Smugley]

Debate is indeed hotting up. I have to say that althought I agree, Mark, the idea of the high feed-in tariff bothers me. George Monbiot is a loud voice of opposition and I have to say, he has some valid points to make. Are we really going to let ourselves be duped into this solar panel rip-off? | George Monbiot | Comment is free | The Guardian

 

[bugsy]

If you purchase a photovolatic system all the contol gear comes with it, basically you wire it into the clients C.U.
There is i belive a guide available one the bre website

While your at it flog him a voltage optimiser

 

[wattsup]

Thanks for that Mark
Yes I did know some pv systems can generate at night, some can even generate enough power to run the charger for the diesel backup generator. (or the charger for a mobile phone) .
Mr Millipede has just invented a new green tax on the masses.

I believe the only alternative for the energy crisis are nuclear stations, except they take 20 years to build...in the meantime windmills and glass roofs are trendy

 

[Markc]

Oh Dear! It’s a shame that journalists don’t have the same aggressive tendencies to report correctly on an item as they do to talk out of their back side! I’m afraid George Monbiot it talking crap. First the governments paper on feed in tariffs requires all supply companies to pay FiTs if they have a customer base of more than 50,000 and for those who don’t its optional. The supply company pays the FiTs but not in increase from other user’s The payment comes out of the carbon taxes they pay to the government in an off set agreement so in the chain its government money. George also states that PV works closer to the equator or somewhere like California we yes but it doesn’t then mean it does not work her. We work design into the knowledge of knowing our average solar radiation and output is calculated accordingly.

I know I’m biased as I’m fitting it and expanding on it but It does annoy me when people who know nothing about the in’s and out’s can write articles and publish them when they are just not true. The proof is in the pudding as they say. It if didn’t work our narrow minded government wouldn’t be spending on it. The reduced tariffs on other renewables reflect the life expectancy of that particular type. PV has a minimum 25 year life with no maintenance. Bio Mass boilers, heat pumps and wind turbines all require maintenance on a regular bases.

Let me also say 100% in agreement for Nuclear power. PV or any renewable is not a magic answer to our energy requirements and nothing is going to provide our energy needs without relying on Russian gas or alike like nuclear. Any renewable is only going to support our supply infrastructure.

Now I’m off to hug a Tree……!

 

[Smugley]

Mark, yes, his is not the only voice. I am reading more of this interesting debate. I am with you, in that I would like to see this scheme succeed. I want to be convinced before going ahead with an installation in my own home.

 

[wattsup]

“George Monbiot it talking crap”…maybe ?
But I think it’s reasonable to assume southern California gets more sunnier days than southern Yorkshire.
When occasionally it is warm and sunny in the UK less power is needed, lighting etc is reduced, in California more is needed to power air con systems, which are power hungry. Very few private homes in the UK have air con.
In the depths of winter over here, more power is needed but the sun ain’t shining, if that statement is wrong then he is talking crap.

It makes sense, a warm sunny climate suits pv far more than a cold damp one.
Manufactures/installers often quote peak power figures but in actual fact averaged out over the whole year are as low as 10% of that claimed.

The government do not have any money, it is our money and they very seldom spend it wisely.
If as claimed solar was so efficient over here, no subsidies, loans and incentives would be required, people would be falling over themselves to install.
I have seen one in operation.

On a new build (I installed a diesel backup generator, hangs head in shame) A solar company installed a system in the garden, the panels the size of a giant roadside placard, it took about 20% of the customers garden up.
Another guy was wiring the house, when I returned to commission the genset it was warm and sunny, August last year, I worked alongside the spark responsible for the house wiring, he said look at this…pv ammeter…130watts.
My genset gave 10Kva (sunny or not) to power essential services.
My system cost £7500

PV cost £19,500 just to power the customers laptop and associated peripherals on warm sunny days in the summer. It averaged out from March to August at 40 watts per day.
But at least this year the customer has from September last year to March this year to factor in!

 

[Markc]

Smugley.

Yes I agree I to wanted to see evidence of a PV system working and now after seeing it I know it works. I agree I’m biases but hay hoe. The evidence will come over the next couple of years when PV appears more frequent.

Wattsup.

It’s a pity you have witnessed a possibly poor system however it’s not fair to judge an entire technology on one system. I liked the fact your client was looking for more than one source of energy and from my assumption on your thread they went for three. Diesel gen set also…Hang your head in shame!!!!!! What would you reaction be if I said “and what will they do when the diesel runs out or the cost per litre is 10 fold of today’s price?” Generator wouldn’t look too attractive then.

Sunnier climates obviously I have to agree with that but its not a write of here in the UK after all the US has a PV system installed within the artic circle in Alaska (and at times their day light hours are measured in minutes!) I can’t quote on figures on this system but it stands to reason it is mostly an experimental system I would assume.

We have to cut our dependency on fossil fuels. Is PV the answer? NO nor is wind, wave or any other form of renewable solely on its own but worked in along side other technologies there is a place for them. Small scale microgeneration plants reduces demand on our weakening infrastructure and allows generation companies to obtain self generated energy to use for other customers at different peak times. Nuclear is the only long term 100% answer to sustain our future energy needs however there 20+ years away and if anyone thinks it wouldn’t be us the energy user who picks up the tab for it then good luck to ya!

The debate will run and run. I know some will never accept any renewable and see it as a money making cash cow for someone down the line and others will run out to buy the biggest system money can buy. Sceptics will always be sceptical.

As for £19,500 for PV and just able to run a laptop then I would be on the phone to the installer double quick time! For that money (Not knowing how long ago it was) I would be estimating it to be a 2.5 to 3.5Kw system possibly at a push even 4Kw…..Now that’s one big laptop!

Sorry Guys I’ve just got to post a reply to George Monbiot’s article.

Not the great green rip-off, by George | Alan Simpson | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk