If an appliance NEEDS protection, then the manufacturer should be supplying/incorporating a suitable means of protection. Not rely on the installer to provide it within the building wiring installation!!

Agreed!
 
BS7671 is not a guide, it is a non statutory set of regulations and classing that and other guides as one and the same is ridiculous. If you like guides so much why don't you have a read of David Cockburns guides! :D
Non statutory means simply that, it is not on the statute books as law, you cannot be prosecuted under it however you can be prosecuted under HSE Acts which are law who may quote BSI and IEE literature as safe, standard technical parctice.
Just like you cannot assume that complying with BS7671 will make you immune to prosecution, HSE quote from BS7671 states that "compliance with BS7671 is LIKELY to comply with the relevant statutory instruments". It does not say guaranteed.....

Following on from this, publications and guidance from the IEE on BS7671 could similarly be quoted simply because they are deemed as an authoritive voice. As an expert witness anyone with the "technical experience" could be called to Court and give testimony either in support of non-statutory documents or to disprove its content as poor based on their own research. Very difficult when up against major documents but not impossible, if you have the money.

As a footnote one of the documents Elecsa demand at their annual assessment is the On-Site guide! As well as BS7671, Part P and the Memorandum on Electricity at Work Regs.
 
Ok mate, whatever. There is no telling you coz no matter what anyone says you will still believe you're right. Still... You are wrong.

I maintain my point. There is a vast difference between a set of non-statutory regulations and a guide. You can't be prosecuted under EAWR for not following the on site guide can you!? A guide by it's very nature is a simpler way of explaining something more complex, a means of giving basic instruction (OED definition). It will guide you through those complexities with much easier to understand language. Well what is BS7671 guiding you through?

Again, if guides are the be all and end all then give one of David Cockburn's guides a read then come back and tell me that you're still right.

The HSE will not quote just 'any' IEE literature when prosecuting, they will use BS7671, that is all, because if you have followed BS7671 then you will have by definition followed the guidance to BS7671. If you follow the much watered down guidance however, then you may not have complied with BS7671.

Another thing worth pointing out is the fact that there are people within the highest circles at the IEE who still haven't got a foggyest what they are talking about when it comes to electrical installation so claiming that all of their literature is bomb proof is a load of rubbish in my opinion. Even BS7671 is full of mistakes and uneducated doctrine.
 
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It would seem that whenever the topic of bathroom extractor fans comes up, triple pole isolation has always been a rather debated subject. There are those of you who talk about not having to fit an isolator if there's a window and there are those of you who say that an isolator should always be fitted. Well, I'm writing this today to see if I can help clear up this subject once and for all.

There is a common misconception that if a bathroom has a window, then an isolator does not need to be fitted as mechanical maintainence can take place whilst the work area is suitably lit with daylight. Unfortunately, this is not the case at all. Generally speaking (there are exceptions), an extractor fan does not need to be fitted in a bathroom containing an opening window at all providing it can be demonstrated that Part F (ventilation) of the building regs has been complied with. This is to do with the air change rate within the bathroom and has nothing at all to do with mechanical maintainence only being allowed when lit. The amount of lighting that should be provided whilst working is down to the Health And Safety at Work Act not BS 7671. There is also a common misconception that a 3 pole isolator switch must be installed to allow for the fan to be isolated, this is also not the case, points of which I will explain in detail later on.

I have also seen a lot of debate regarding which type of extractor fan has to be fitted. Whether it has to be a timer fan with overrun, humidity controlled or simply one that operates off of the switched live alone. This again is a topic that is down to Part F of the building regs, not any electrical regs that I know of. Whatever the air change rate that specific bathroom needs to conform to Part F, then a fan that is fitted must be able to provide it, regardless of the type of fan. This means it may have to be a timer fan with overrun, it also means it may not need to be, it all depends.

Another point worth noting is that Part F only applies to new builds and refurbishments. A rewire is not a refurbishment as no structural changes have been made to the property. This means that there is no requirement to fit an extraction fan during a rewire alone. A rewire during a loft conversion however would be classed as a refurbishment, this means an extractor fan would need to be fitted and it would need to comply with Part F. Finally, if a bathroom that isn't already fitted with an extractor fan complies with Part F, a new fan installation in that bathroom need not apply to Part F. This means that in this scenario, selection of the type of fan is free for the customer or installer to choose.

Now I come to a couple of regs, first of which is all of those covered by 537.3.1. Essentially, electrically powered equipment shall be provided with a means of switching off where mechanical maintainence may involve a risk of injury. I feel the need to stress that use of an MCB and/or main switch and/or RCD is a perfectly acceptable means of switching off a bathroom extractor fan for mechanical maintainence. Nowhere does it state in BS 7671 that switching off for mechanical maintainence must be provided locally.

Another regulation I will draw your attention to is 132.15.2 which states that 'Every fixed electric motor shall be provided with an efficient means of switching off, readily accessible, easily operated and so placed as to prevent danger'. This is a regulation often pointed to by people who are in the 'Always fit 3 pole isolation club'. Here, 'means of switching off' does not neccesarily mean isolation. An extractor fan that runs off the switched live alone could reasonably be expected to conform with this regulation by use of the light switch alone, thus not needing a 3 pole isolation switch . A bathroom timer fan with overrun that runs off a light that is fused down to 1A via a switched fused connection unit as per manufacturers instructions, could also reasonably be expected to conform with this regulation by use of the SFCU alone, thus not needing a 3 pole isolation switch. A third example I could give you is of an extractor fan with an integral switch, this would not need 3 pole isolation either. Ultimately, depending on your own interpretation of the words 'readily accessible', it could be argued that a bathroom extractor fan could be efficiently switched off with the applicable circuit's MCB depending on the placement and accessibility of the consumer unit.


Now of course, all manufacturers instructions for electrical equipment must be followed to comply with BS 7671 but taking into account all the above highlighted points, what I have demonstrated is that the debate surrounding extractor fans in bathrooms is never black or white. Although it may still be considered best practice, there is no requirement in BS 7671 to fit 3 pole isolation for extractor fans, however, they must be able to be switched off, and there must be some method of isolation for the purpose of mechanical maintainence.

I hope this clears up any future debate or confusion regarding bathroom extractor fans.

"Now I come to a couple of regs, first of which is all of those covered by 537.3.1. Essentially, electrically powered equipment shall be provided with a means of switching off where mechanical maintainence may involve a risk of injury. I feel the need to stress that use of an MCB and/or main switch and/or RCD is a perfectly acceptable means of switching off a bathroom extractor fan for mechanical maintainence. Nowhere does it state in BS 7671 that switching off for mechanical maintainence must be provided locally."

Just to disagree with you on a few points, have you forgotton that the original intention of the fan isolator switch was to disconnect all the poles (except CPC where used of course) the main concept is to be able to isolate the fan for maintenance. That's difficult to do if the MCB is used to control the circuit if it's dedicated, if it's for the lighting circuit then the regs say that no installation should be installed as to be a nuisance and switching the lighting MCB off in the dark is dangerous and impractical as the Neutral is still connected, isn't it? Also, any thought to the maximum amperage required by the fans. Most suppliers require a 3 amp fuse so that means a dedicated FCU as well. Anyone ever been called out because of a stalled fan?. Dispite what the regs say you must be sensible and provide a system that is well designed and in the interests of the customer, why do a second rate job. Install a FCU and an isolater, many fan companies will not credit a fan if it's burnt out. And while on the subject of fans has anyone had a problem with the Steeple range of fans, especially the humidistat controlled ones?


Read more: http://www.electriciansforums.net/e...on-source-much-controversy.html#ixzz2MZI9Yl5W
 
On a TN system disconnecting the line conductor only is a perfectly acceptable means of isolation. With regards to fuses, I thought I was pretty clear in my OP.

Read the last paragraph and then disagree with me again :)
 
The 3 phase isolator, especially if fitted outside the bathroom might not be sufficient under Electricity at work regs. The requirement is to work dead and on a circuit verified as dead and locked off in a manner which will not allow inadvert switching on.
At the side of the fan, no problem but outside with the potential of the door the electrician cannot be in control of the safe means of isolation. I have never seen a fan isolator with a locking facility.
 
Exactly! Which is what makes this 'local isolation for mechanical maintenance' a load of nonsense. An MCB however can be locked off.
 
The 3 phase isolator, especially if fitted outside the bathroom might not be sufficient under Electricity at work regs. The requirement is to work dead and on a circuit verified as dead and locked off in a manner which will not allow inadvert switching on.
At the side of the fan, no problem but outside with the potential of the door the electrician cannot be in control of the safe means of isolation. I have never seen a fan isolator with a locking facility.

MK fan isolators are lockable I know that for sure.
 
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Guys I'm not going to be disparaging towards sparks who fit isolators, what I will do however is point out to those who say that they are a 'requirement' in 100% of cases that they are wrong!

Edit: And let's be honest, there are far more pressing matters at hand than whether we need to fit fan isolators. I just thought it would be a useful post, I never thought it would turn into such a debate! :D
 
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True, got one at home.
Seem pretty crappy though, Two tiny plastic pins to lock the switch off.

True, but if someone is going to make efforts to turn it on by breaking those pins, and ignoring the huge red flappy thing with a padlock dangling off it, then no amount of safeguarding and locking off is going to protect you from that person.
 
On the legal standing of the BGB, I’m not a lawyer, but the Building Regulations are law, which everyone agrees on, and the approved documents give guidance on complying with them.

The following is an extract from Approved Document Part P 2013 Edition, Section 1 Design and Installation (Page 3)
“General
1.1 Electrical installations should be designed and installed in accordance with BS7671:2008 incorporating Amendment No.1:2011.
So does mean that the BGB, is in a roundabout way, law?

Going back to the thread subject bathroom fans, fuses and isolators.

Change the pull switch controlling the lights to a DP pull switch (MK and Crabtree do them), connect the lighting feed and sw/wire to one pole.

From the lighting circuit take a Live and Neutral to a Fused Spur (fused to 3A).

Then run a twin from the spare pole of the pull switch to the spur.

Run a 3c to the fan.

Connect the lives from the 3c and the twin to the switch into the Load of the spur.

Joint the sw/wires from the twin and 3c in a Wago in the back of the Spur box.

If you really want to install a 3 pole isolator, run 2 twins and the 3c to it and make the connections there.

Both lives fused and isolated...
 
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Sorry, can't agree with any of that last paragraph or not...you are saying that no isolation is required close to the fan and then that no 3 pole device is required for isolation. Ever tried changing a fan on RCD protected circuit? you are really saying that you can remove all the connections, in most cases with permanent live and switched without causing the RCD to trip? TN system or not who takes the chance? Just because you interpret the regs your way doesn't make it correct does it?

I awlays fit a FCU fused to manufactures requirements and a 3 pole isolator and always 3+cpc cable and all accesible (usually above doorway).
I really can't believe some of the comments here concerning providing BS fuses protection to both permanent live and switched live, I would consider that wiring knowledge as 1st year stuff...
 
you are saying that no isolation is required close to the fan and then that no 3 pole device is required for isolation.

Just because you interpret the regs your way doesn't make it correct does it?

Find me some regulations then that prove me incorrect. If you can, I'll happy eat humble pie, until then why not keep your arrogant remarks to yourself.

And guess what, the beauty of non-statutory regulations is that they ARE often open to interpretation.
 
Yeah do what you do , but I install them beside it or above 2.2m
 
I really can't believe some of the comments here concerning providing BS fuses protection to both permanent live and switched live, I would consider that wiring knowledge as 1st year stuff...

Not sure if I have misunderstood your quote, so appologies before i get shouted at, manrose fans installation wiring diagram show an FCU with a live split, 1 to light switch for switching and one direct to the fan as permanent live.
What puzzled me and this has now been answered within this thread was the small DP pull cord, one for fan switch live and one for light switch live. Haven't seen one for years and certainly my usual supplier said he had never seen one for years only the big shower switch.

If you follow the wiring logic above would that not do away with the need for the triple pole? Both feeds for the fan are through the fuse which can be removed and the fuse carrier locked open for safe isolation so regardless of location safe isolation is satisfied?

That will be my preferred route from now on, so now to shout at my supplier as I want DP 6 amp pull cord light switches.

Thank you Mr Skelton, for all we have had our disagreements the discussion you started has at least give me a standard which I am happy with and which has puzzled me for months if only it hadn't taken so long! The last fan wiring diagram would never have worked and all statute says that manufacturers instructions should be complied with - and that p!sses me off.
As a footnote, including myself, sometimes when writing briefly not all the meaning comes across. I know what I want to say but sometimes when I read back not even I understand it!
 
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To answer gonefishings' post #56 In my last post #54 I wasn't saying install or not install a 3 pole isolator, I mean't, it's up to your interpretation of the regulations whether to install one or not. All I was offering was a solution to the problem of fusing the Switch feed to the fan.

If you're changing the fan on a RCD protected circuit and it's wired through a Spur as my original post and the spur is switched off then then the neutral to the fan is isolated.

The DP Pull Switch is 16A, MK3151WHI or Crabtree 2163 or Legrand 061130

Discount-electrical.co.uk sell the MK
 
044_1103_SC03_GU1013_large._1.3.p2_.jpg
 
"If you follow the wiring logic above would that not do away with the need for the triple pole? Both feeds for the fan are through the fuse which can be removed and the fuse carrier locked open for safe isolation so regardless of location safe isolation is satisfied? "


I would think so...

Sorry I didn't read all your post, before posting again...
 
Find me some regulations then that prove me incorrect. If you can, I'll happy eat humble pie, until then why not keep your arrogant remarks to yourself.

And guess what, the beauty of non-statutory regulations is that they ARE often open to interpretation.

Arrogant? do you know what it means?
Aren't you the one that decided to give all of us the bennifit of your regs advice? the regs are minimum and they are are for interpretation but not for making installations less safe. You are attempting to give advice in a special area which could provide or give some readers incorrect advice. If the readers have to rely on this forum for knowledge you should be promoting safety and not scraping the regs for quick get outs. It is common practice to install an FCU to comply with the manufactures requirements for maximum fuse requirements, it does mention manufactures requirements several times in the regs doesn't it? and anyone not installing a 3 pole switch doesn't understand the RCD requirements. As I mentioned many here don't understand how to wire a BS 1362 fuse into a system let alone follow your " A source of much controversy" there's no controversy and safety is paramount not the regs.
 
Arrogant? do you know what it means?

Yes.

Aren't you the one that decided to give all of us the bennifit of your regs advice? the regs are minimum and they are are for interpretation but not for making installations less safe.

I'd like to know exactly how I've advocated making an installation 'less safe'? I think you need to read my OP again as all I have done is make the regs regarding this issue a little clearer and provided examples of possible interpretation. I made it CLEAR that it is often best practice to fit an isolator but that it was not, contrary to popular belief, an absolute requirement.

You are attempting to give advice in a special area which could provide or give some readers incorrect advice. If the readers have to rely on this forum for knowledge you should be promoting safety and not scraping the regs for quick get outs.

Special area?!? Do me a favour please! My advice is entirely accurate! The regs regarding isolation, electric motors, special locations and manufacturers instructions are plain to see in black and white! This might be a special area for you, for DIYers or for 5WWs but please don't come on here and insult me with your patronising implication that I somehow struggle to understand the regs when it comes to a bleeding bathroom fan! You don't even know what a specialist area is, I work in a number of specialist fields and believe me they are a little more complex than a bit of 3 core and a shaded pole!

It is common practice to install an FCU to comply with the manufactures requirements for maximum fuse requirements, it does mention manufactures requirements several times in the regs doesn't it?

Rubbish! I'd say it was common practice never to pick up, let alone open a set of manufacturers instructions!

and anyone not installing a 3 pole switch doesn't understand the RCD requirements.

Crap! Maybe I better go round every installation I've ever worked on and install 3 pole isolation to every item of equipment and every accessory that might at some point in the future need maintenance or changing! Clearly MCBs aren't up to the job any more!

As I mentioned many here don't understand how to wire a BS 1362 fuse into a system let alone follow your " A source of much controversy" there's no controversy and safety is paramount not the regs.

If there was no controversy then you wouldn't be arguing with me on this thread with your superior attitude and knowledge backed up purely by blind following of here say and bad advice.
 
Switching an mcb off is not isolating, unless it's a double pole mcb. Therefore the fan or item of equipment being "ISOLATED" by an mcb, technically is not.
 
Switching an mcb off is not isolating, unless it's a double pole mcb. Therefore the fan or item of equipment being "ISOLATED" by an mcb, technically is not.

Do you own a regs book?! If so, you need to read it again!
 
I own a regs book, I will read it and if I have interpreted it wrong I apologise. The books at work so will have to wait.
 
Stroppy, what make is this? Never seen one before and not in my wholesaler, I do use on line and may have never picked this up being a small catch/ screw on the bottom.
Many thanks, one for the memory as there is so much manufactured it can be hard to spot the little difference. Maybe we should have a forum for "accessories and kit" as well as tools somewhere you can ask if anyone had seen an accessory for a specific job?


Quite ironic how complex something so simple can be - I would love to go back to commissioning PLC / MCC's far simpler than houses!
 
Switching an mcb off is not isolating, unless it's a double pole mcb. Therefore the fan or item of equipment being "ISOLATED" by an mcb, technically is not.

since when does a domestic bathroom fan require D.P. isolation ?

and if you look at table 53.2 in the regs it says.........

" circuit breaker ....bs60898 .....Isolation - Yes
Emerg Switching - Yes
Functional Switching - Yes

seems like youve gulped a couple of cans of incorrect.
 
Am I right in saying that both live and neutral are classed as live conductors, if so switching off means exactly that "switching" I am given to understand that isolation means completely removing the appliance from the circuit.
I am not involving myelf in the bathroom fan saga. just the term isolation.
 
I’m not taking a “side” in this rather heated discussion, feeling that, as with a lot of the content in the BGB, isolation is left rather open to interpretation, by different people.

Here are a few extracts from various manufacturers installation leaflets. Apologies if the images don't turn out quite right, it's my first attempt at this...

Greenwood Airvac – Unity CV100

greenvac 1.png

Greenwood Airvac – EL100, EL150U, EL150 & EL150SCPC

greenvac 2.png

Vent Axia
Vent Axia.png
Manrose

manrose.pngXpelair

Xpelair 1.png
xpelair 2.png

Out of the 4 manufacturers only one mentions a 3 Pole isolator and this is in addition to the suitably fused connection unit, which are all double pole. I think, if you lock the fuse carrier open, then it would be unlikely that some one would switch the spur on, maybe causing you a problem with the RCD, if you are changing the fan.

On the same subject, by my user name you can tell I'm primarily, nowadays an estimator, but I am time served and had a break from office work for a while, a few years ago and “went back on the tools”. I price a lot of jobs, mostly commercial with some apartment blocks and a lot feature extract fans fed from local lighting circuits and it’s 50/50 on whether a FCU or both a FCU and fan isolator is required. Most of the jobs are pre-designed by "experts"
 
since when does a domestic bathroom fan require D.P. isolation ?

Since the manufacturers say it should?

But only if the circuit protective device is bigger than 5A? Sorry that's separate fusing...

see my previous post...

I'm not saying you need DP isolation, just what the manufacturers say...



 
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Stroppy, what make is this? Never seen one before and not in my wholesaler, I do use on line and may have never picked this up being a small catch/ screw on the bottom."
This one is a Newlec, and from my google search for the phrase "triple pole isolator with lock" it seems MK do one as well. They come with a little key to operate the locking device, which I imagine disappears without trace after 10 minutes of the installer leaving the building :)
 
a fan on a timer needs a permenant feed/sw feed/neutral, i recon that the hse would require safe isolation[ie; not working in the dark, with half the lights in the house off, and a torch in your mouth-the "regs"are a BS standard and the hse requirments tend to be legaly binding-i think
 
i recon that the hse would require safe isolation[ie; not working in the dark, with half the lights in the house off, and a torch in your mouth

So what do you use for illumination when you're working on a lighting circuit?

(Not saying that being able to leave the lights on isn't convenient.)
 
Freaking heck i'm gonna get my hard hat on ! Thought it was a forum not a boxing ring lol

Just had an issue about ventilation fans in bathrooms and looks like my solution is going to be to fit a DP secret key switch with fuse on a grid switch with the faceplate engraved "Bathroom Ventilation" it's going to be located in the adjacent store cupboard and wired onto the lighting circuit so tenants are disuaded from turning the CB off.
The fan has humidistat and pull cord overide so no issues with over run.
 
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not telling! but good point,[its the desighn that bothers me]-think i mey have mispelt desighn
 

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Bathroom extractor fans and 3 pole isolation: A source of much controversy
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