Changes to Part P

[sbelec]

Hi Guys,

Anyone seen the full implications of the Part P changes that come into force April? I have just been reading issue 14 of SPARK from the ECA where the details are on the front page.

The biggest shock was watering down Part P so that kitchen work becomes non-notifiable - what a joke, what a backward step. I consider this the most dangerous room of the house, where else do you have gas, water and electric all in close proximity? That's without boiling water, sharp knives, lots of wall fittings and most important probably the highest area of power consumption and highest load on cables. But we have gone back to unqualified kitchen fitters and DIYers doing effectively what they want, admittedly only till something goes wrong but how many will get away with it scott free from luck!

A prime example, lady called because of a strange smell of burning in the kitchen and the washer would not work. The kitchen had been replaced 12 months earlier by a fairly reputable small local company and the quality of the kit was excellent. The problem was the introduction of additional accessories, including 2 double sockets, between 2 existing sockets for fixed appliances.
Socket 1 had 4 wires per terminal, ring/ring/spur to round junction box/spur to washer and all the neutral insulation had melted setting fire to some paper used to fill behind the tiles. When I had rewired the section correctly and removed the loops, back feeds etc I had 9 feet of cable spare and a junction box. Had the fire occured at the other end then... as the gas pipe for the cooker was there!

That is without, ignoring zones, no equipotential bonding, no RCD's on the new sockets. I wrote to her detailing Part P, highlighting no test results and no LABC notification and she got them to pay my bill.

I see installed sockets on spurs al the time with no bonding or RCD's and I am sick of having to pull out the regs to prove it is wrong as I can see the customer thinking - "con artist, just trying to get money".......

Then Elecsa have the cheek to start charging me for the insurance backed warranty, that's on top of my fees etc. Does make me wonder if the part p is viable given the number of bathrooms and consumer unit changes I do! Must work out at £10 per job.

Disgusted, cost go up for my honesty letting in more cowboys and unfortunately the sheriff seems to have gone awol..

 

[sparkdog]

It would have been better to leave part P just as it was.Vested interests I expect ie someone making lots of money out of the changes.
I wonder if we are going to have BOB next......Big Orange Book.

 

[edrobbo8]

Is there anywhere one can find the exact changes that are being implemented? The direct debit for my annual registration will be taken on 10th April and as most of my work is electrical installs for a kitchen company I am very close to cancelling said direct debit!

 

[sparkdog]

You can download the new part P on the ELECSA site if you are with them.Probably else where as well.

 

[GMES]

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_AD_P_2013.pdf

 

[valleybilly]

kitchens haven't been taken out , Work that is not in a kitchen or special location but shares the same circuit is now classed as sharing that special location ,

 

[longboat1]

kitchens haven't been taken out , Work that is not in a kitchen or special location but shares the same circuit is now classed as sharing that special location ,

Kitchens will no longer be classed as special location under part p. They never were in the reg's either. Only special location will be a room containing a bath or shower.

 

[valleybilly]

Kitchens will no longer be classed as special location under part p. They never were in the reg's either. Only special location will be a room containing a bath or shower.

your correct , it is however still notifiable , thats what i ment , all they have done is move the words around , pathetic suit grabbers !!!!!!!!!!!

Additional notes
Tables 1 and 2 above give the general rules for
determining whether or not electrical installation
work is notifiable. The rules are based on the risk
of fire and injury and what is practicable. The
following notes provide additional guidance and
specific examples:
a. Notifiable jobs include new circuits back to
the consumer unit, and extensions to circuits
in kitchens and special locations (bathrooms,
etc) and associated with special installations

(garden lighting and power installations, etc).
b. Replacement, repair and maintenance jobs
are generally not notifiable, even if carried out
in a kitchen or special location or associated
with a special installation.

 

[Richard Burns]

Kitchens will no longer be classed as special location under part p. They never were in the reg's either. Only special location will be a room containing a bath or shower.

The special location is within the zones (0,1,2) of a bathroom not the room itself, installing an additional light outside the zones would not be notifiable.
A room containing a swimming pool or sauna heater is also a special location.

your correct , it is however still notifiable, that's what i meant , all they have done is move the words around , pathetic suit grabbers !!!!!!!!!!!

Your text is taken from the previous version of the AD for Part P, the rules from 6th April 2013 do not state that information, so any alteration or addition in a kitchen would not be notifiable, although a new circuit would be notifiable.

 

[longboat1]

The best bit about the changes seems to be that you will no longer need to be registered with a scam provider to notify work to your LABC. Looks like it will be upto them to decide if you are competent to carry out the work, do the tests and fill in the forms:sunny:

 

[MDJ]

Thats not the way I see it, basically the changes mean a non competant person can now carry out work providing a competant person signs it off to building control and building control do not have to inspect it, basically there will be a lot of Bobs from the pub doing a quick job for cash and then get some fool who is in a scheme to sign off their work which usually costs £1.99 and not the £300.00 building control usually charges if they are asked to inspect Bob from the pubs work, However I cannot see the NICEIC allowing any of their approved contractors to sign off someone elses work, it is against enrolement rules to issue EICs for others work, and I expect the other registered bodies like Elecsa to follow suit and stop their registered members to sign of others work too, it is the only way they will be able to survive and keep competant tradesmen under their wing, they just haven't worked this out yet but are bound to follow the NICEICs lead on EIC certs being issued for others work, Just my 2 pence worth.

 

[longboat1]

Yeah i hear what your saying, but it depends what you class as competent. Being registered as a D.I under one of the scam providers is certainly no measure of this. You dont even need a qual in inspection and testing to join most of them (def not napit anyway).
It does say you have to inform BC before work commences then they will decide what checks "IF ANY" are needed for them to issue a building certificate.

 

[sbelec]

I'm pretty sure no provider allowed 3rd party sign off as it was technically against building regs, if you look at the 3 part EIC where designer, installer and tester are different. The question comes, would you sign off the work of another if you had not at least supervised the work?
Five year old flat, 11 downlighters with all the sheath cut back at least 10 inches of the termination housing and the cable grip holding the insulation, one of the earth loops had come loose and disconnected leaving 6 with no earth. I know that the cabling fault was from installation and I would be fairly certain that the cPC fault was too.
I would be very concerned on signing off work unless I was "involved" throughout the installation.

As a footnote the flat also had no main earth, which I could not initially work out, with electricity north west in attendence we found the earth wires from the main fuse cupboard to the flat fuse had been cut in the trunking, looked fine at the 2 ends. ENW pulled the main fuses on 90 flats within 10 minutes. Quite ironic that the management company had had other flats put through a condition report test within the previous few weeks!

I'm not perfect, but like a lot of you guys I try to be correct and therefore safe but unfortunately there are too many who are willing to take a chance and who do you think would end up in dock in our blame culture society - not the chancer.

 

[longboat1]

Third party sign off's wer'nt advised under previous part p but have been given the green light after april, in the form of an EICR.
Which im sure most issue on a regular basis, for systems that they have'nt installed and you dont have to be a scam member to do these. A non registered electrician will be able to carry out work (after first informing BC) do tests and fill in an EIC.
Then it will be upto whoever deals with these at LABC to decide, after seeing qual's of said electrician to decide if a BCC can be issued, or further inspection and testing is needed. Yeah its a grey area and will differ between areas and inspectors just as other BC does now. Once its up and running this could be the beggining of the end for scam providers.

 

[oldtimer]

Thats not the way I see it, basically the changes mean a non competant person can now carry out work providing a competant person signs it off to building control and building control do not have to inspect it, basically there will be a lot of Bobs from the pub doing a quick job for cash and then get some fool who is in a scheme to sign off their work which usually costs £1.99 and not the £300.00 building control usually charges if they are asked to inspect Bob from the pubs work, However I cannot see the NICEIC allowing any of their approved contractors to sign off someone elses work, it is against enrolement rules to issue EICs for others work, and I expect the other registered bodies like Elecsa to follow suit and stop their registered members to sign of others work too, it is the only way they will be able to survive and keep competant tradesmen under their wing, they just haven't worked this out yet but are bound to follow the NICEICs lead on EIC certs being issued for others work, Just my 2 pence worth.

As a Scottish sparky looking in on this from afar I am sorry to say MDJ that not only will NICEIC allow their members to sign of other peoples work they will positively persue and sell it to their members as a good revenue stream why ? Because this will get them out of the hole that they created remember they pushed for Part P they sold the 5 week training courses so the Jimmy the joiner who was throwing in kitchens could be trained to install electrics safely . So what went wrong well in my view Part P was to be self policed LABC did not have the resources to do it and the Schemies would not do it as they were too busy collecting subs and sending snotty nosed kids to access you whilst at the same time sell you courses because of all the changes ie BGB EICR COP4 I could go on but no doubt it will change yet again before I can push the submit button.

You also need to ask yourself why are they changing this well in my view in this case its not because of changes sake it is just they can no longer hold the flood of Jimmy or Jimsky the kitchen fitters back and are now cutting their losses by saying ok do what you have done for years but our members get to sign it off. So whats the problem well they are all for it but their members will no longer be able to say charge £800-£1500 to wire test and pass a kitchen installation instead they will be expected to fight with the builder/owner about signing it off for £90.

From where I am this is a bigger mess on what you have already

 

[brucelee]

I agree mate watering it down gives the wrong signals as they will think all you have to do now is press a few buttons on a tester
I think the whole set up is a joke they should have just made it illegal for anyone not qualified to do the work not reduce the notifiable jobs, basically it all should be got rid of the whole part p garbage and just introduce a register. You have to give a cert to customer and or client and then send notfication and a copy to LABC for traceability

Basically it going to cost us all the annual costs to sign and take responsibility for someone elses work not to mention new relevent electrical literature that the IET keeps spewing out

I have questioned Elecsa in various emails regarding the changes and 3rd party I&T and they havnt got a clue same with the JIB about QS status and the new so called quals that are now coming out for domestic Qs and for commercial / Industrial Qs
the whole set up is a rip off and complete joke

 

[KAS1]

I remember when the JIB/SJIB card became a "registrar of electricians card" and now it's an ECS/JIB(SJIB) card in my view the ECS/JIB card should be the card that all electricians should hold to legally preform electrical installations industrial/commercial or domestic, all these scams registrations seem to mimic the criteria for S/JIB grading so why not make it the only card required.

 

[oldtimer]

Bruce I hate to say it but the reason that they are not getting back to you is they do have a clue but they are waiting for the Fate Acomplee to take place so that instead of preparing you for the changes they will play the "we are here to help you get through this"
Remember all the Schemies are playing the same game telling everyone that they are the honest broker in all of this.

So from my point of view they would say they are managing their members where some would say the are being led by the nose . So how will it work out well initially they will sell you the this is good money for you as your like an MOT mechanic so you find the problems and bill the customer great only problem is the customer will tell you to bill the contractor who will tell you to get lost ie you are piggy in the middle. No matter how you look at it your revenue stream will all but collapse if you do kitchens and bathrooms installs as any builder who gets wind of this will jump in then some of these £60 EICR companies will look at this and see the potential to earn money by paying Electrical Trainee who are desperate to get into the trade with minimum wage. For me in this current economical climate this is a race to the bottom with the as long there is a RCD fitted then thats fine attitude

 

[brucelee]

when I was applying for JIB card was the same hard work to get the answers was told to get Qs status on my gold card I would need copy of certs inc NVQ an employers signature for section 10 or someone i had subbied for in last 6 months which i hadnt then

I also had to send a copy of recent assessment and certifcate from ELECSA dates within last 3 months
when i asked why it had to be within last 3 months when my registration was annual

she said this was the agreement ELECSA made with them and the other schemes but if i was a memeber of NIC or Napit then one dated within the last year was acceptable
I questioned this and jsut got ELESCA agreed on 3 monthly checks which I explained she was wrong
she said i would need to contact ELECSA regarding this as if they now only carried out annual assessments then they would need to change there agreement with them

Elecsa contacted them on my behalf and came back reason it had to be within last 3 months was that if someone was allowed to regsiter for QS status and only had 1 month registration with a scheme then they couldnt get QS statusd then leave the scheme or fail a month after

My response was again why though is it different for ELECSA competent persons but NIC or NAPIT Members could use one dated more than 3 months I gave up in the end

Anyway got MY JIB gold card the a seperate white card with Qs status for domestic installations and ELECSA logo etc

So back oto JIB asking why it was seperate when she led me to believe that the status would be on the Gold card
I said do you not do that now she said yes can still get QS status on gold card
think I would have to get an employer to sign section 10 of the form or a subbie and to get approved also 2391 which I have think it may be the section 10 thats messed it up
anwyay after paying thousands of pounds of savings and studying for last 3 years whilst being a carer for the mrs, working for free to get hte NVQ I think they taking the PART P???

Elecsa just told me you cant sign someone elses work
as I asked could i go work for a firm and carry out there I&T using my notification which under present rules is not allowed they said no

So I cant sign an elecy, labourer or apprentices work for a firm but under new rules will be able to sign every tom dick or harry who is fDIY or builder etc but not for another firm lol unless you work for that firm and have been assessed as there QS
SO complete waste of time and what they have come up with is a complete sham

 

[oldtimer]

Careful you might just start asking why you are paying £800 for a Scheme membership that see's your revenue drop so you may want to ask if thats the case they may need to drop their subs but don't hold your breath.

I think the trick is to make you believe that nothing has changed with Part P